Think Ford might die now? Oh people's short memories.

[Sky14FFH]

So gas prices are creeping up to $5/gallon 2 years after Ford has killed off all its cars. I test drove a hybrid escape but it only got about 30mpg during the test and with all the irritating screens the experience was "meh" at best.   It was smooth though and felt light.  Why oh why didn't they continue production on a practical plugin hybrid like the volt that could get 59 miles to the charge where the battery does not intrude in on the cabin space. Why oh why did Chevy discontinue the Volt? People would be buying them like crazy now.  Wish I got a used one 2 years ago when I was thinking about it.  They are all over $17k now.  Why will the dimwitted people never listen to the wise people?

[MeeLee]

I think the actual average mileage on the Volt was closer to 35MPG, below the Mitsubishi mirage.

The volt was a good idea, bad implemented.

They should have reduced the engine size, and increased the electric motor.

 

Anyway, they discontinued it because of low profit margins. Creating a volt, is creating an EV and a gas car all in one.
Save for the 35-50 miles battery pack which is cheaper than an EV, it's still about twice as expensive than an economy car.

[mwr]

>practical plugin hybrid<

There are lower-priced ones available, including the Hyundai Ioniq, Kia Niro, ans Toyota Prius Prime.

[Sky14FFH]

On 6/11/2022 at 8:04 PM, MeeLee said:

I think the actual average mileage on the Volt was closer to 35MPG, below the Mitsubishi mirage.

If you look at this list the actual average mileage on the Volt was 116 and in the summer most people get 59 miles out of  a charge even though the official number was 53 miles.  Actual owners' fuel economy have ranged from 36 to 3579.  I just did 55 miles last week running errands around everywhere including filling my nearly half tank.  I could have done it all on electric.  The scene at the gas station was madness people in their gas guzzling SUVs quarreling with one another.  A few months ago, I met a guy with a beautiful Volt at the store claiming he hadn't filled up for 4 months.

 

The engine size was not a problem in the volt at 1.5l. The Prius Prime has a 1.8 liter and still gets 54 mpg BUT 35 miles it doesn't have enough electric range to run a major set of errands.  However, on the Prius prime the battery pack intrudes on the cargo space significantly, not the Volt.

 

Quote

Creating a volt, is creating an EV and a gas car all in one.

 

What do you think we are driving?  It's an EV and a gas car all in one but without the option to run only on electric.  They discontinued it because they are idiots and have very bad forecasters (ie. cultural anthropologists - saw an opening for one once at Ford) with little vision.

 

The Volt was HALF as expensive as an electric car and was both.

 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Sky14FFH

[Cobra348]

I've been looking at Hyundai Sonata, Honda Accord and Toyota Camry hybrids.  I'm leaning toward Hyundai but will still look at other possibilities.

 

 

[mwr]

7 hours ago, Cobra348 said:

I've been looking at Hyundai Sonata, Honda Accord and Toyota Camry hybrids.  I'm leaning toward Hyundai but will still look at other possibilities.

If I needed a needed a new car now (which I don't), I'd also likely pick from those three.

[Waldo]

18 hours ago, Sky14FFH said:

 

The Volt was HALF as expensive as an electric car and was both.

 

 

The Volt was only that price because it was heavily subsidized by both the government and General Motors.  GM (and Ford) clearly saw that making small low-priced PHEVs was not a sustainable business model, even with high gas prices.  As battery costs drop over the next decade, BEVs will be so, so much cheaper to build than PHEVs that PHEVs will become obsolete and anyone who invested in them will have thrown their money down the toilet.

[Sky14FFH]

19 hours ago, Cobra348 said:

I've been looking at Hyundai Sonata, Honda Accord and Toyota Camry hybrids.  I'm leaning toward Hyundai but will still look at other possibilities.

 

Your minds are still 10 years ago.  For new cars there is the Hyundai Ionic Blue which gets 58/60mpg city/highway 702 miles of range and the Prius Eco 58/53 with 633 miles of range that ordinary cars in Europe were getting in 2004.  https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=44138&id=44081 That's still not good enough any more.  I'm going to need an electric hybrid that does at least 50 miles of range that I can charge myself with the option of using a little gas if it needs to.  For long road trips which are seldom these days I'd get something else, maybe something I can sleep in.  Charging the car with solar panels is an option.  I have to go fully autonomous now and off grid.  You never know what the energy producers are going to try to do whether they are the oil companies or the electric producers, they BOTH keep raising prices to satisfy their whimsy and to test how much the government will let them get away with and pay themselves more salary.  Living dependently on others is an utter folly.

 

Waldo:  dead wrong.  No car is an investment.  They are all a liability.  They are all a money pit and a major source of anxiety.  You have decide how much you are going to dump into it.  The Volt was PERFECT.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Sky14FFH

[Cobra348]

3 hours ago, Sky14FFH said:

 

Your minds are still 10 years ago.  For new cars there is the Hyundai Ionic Blue which gets 58/60mpg city/highway 702 miles of range and the Prius Eco 58/53 with 633 miles of range that ordinary cars in Europe were getting in 2004.  https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=44138&id=44081 That's still not good enough any more.  I'm going to need an electric hybrid that does at least 50 miles of range that I can charge myself with the option of using a little gas if it needs to.  For long road trips which are seldom these days I'd get something else, maybe something I can sleep in.  Charging the car with solar panels is an option.  I have to go fully autonomous now and off grid.  You never know what the energy producers are going to try to do whether they are the oil companies or the electric producers, they BOTH keep raising prices to satisfy their whimsy and to test how much the government will let them get away with and pay themselves more salary.  Living dependently on others is an utter folly.

 

Waldo:  dead wrong.  No car is an investment.  They are all a liability.  They are all a money pit and a major source of anxiety.  You have decide how much you are going to dump into it.  The Volt was PERFECT.

I do not want an SUV, Station Wagon, Pickup or the like.  I want a passenger car and that's why I am looking at those choices.  Sonata Blue can get up to 54 MPG based on specs but there are some amenities not available on that trim so I'm looking at SEL trim which could hit 51.  The estimated average MPG is still higher than FFH - in all three options.

[Sky14FFH]

21 minutes ago, Cobra348 said:

I do not want an SUV, Station Wagon, Pickup or the like. 

Yeah none of those are SUVs, wagons or pickups so not sure why you're quoting my post. Those get the best fuel economy so not sure why you're looking at what gets a little worse.  I'm not here to sell cars so whatever you want to do you do.  Those get pretty good gas mileage but during these times my next car is going to be a plugin.

My last fill up I got 47mpg when the computer was showing higher.  Getting those tires was a big fat mistake.

[Waldo]

4 hours ago, Sky14FFH said:

 

Waldo:  dead wrong.  No car is an investment.  They are all a liability.  They are all a money pit and a major source of anxiety.  You have decide how much you are going to dump into it.  The Volt was PERFECT.

 

I meant investment by the OEMs.  The smart OEMs have stopped investing in PHEV technology because they realize it is a dead end.

 

Just because the Volt was PERFECT for you, doesn't mean it's perfect for the vast majority of the population or the company building it.

[Sky14FFH]

Here we go again.  2008 forgotten 2022 redux.

 

Waldo. It IS perfect for the vast majority of the population and it is not a dead end.  It just takes a LONG TIME for Americans' intelligence to catch up with reality.  The rest of the world is much faster.  For the VAST majority of population VERY FEW people drive more than 50 miles a day.  55 miles and an hour and 20 minutes on the road the other day (3.5 hours out) was absolutely exhausting.   The carmakers are INFINITELY stupid because they almost ALL went out of business after 2008.  They didn't learn their lesson and niether did the majority of the American people. They only live in the now, a VERY SHORT NOW.   I guarantee you anyone who ACTUALLY KNEW what the Volt could do WANTS ONE NOW!

 

They enabled you to do all your daily driving on electric but if you had to go further they could get 42 miles per gallon.  That could easily be improved upon but the 53 miles all electric was PERFECT FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION.  

Here's a review of the Volt from a very ordinary guy I watch from time to time on Youtube who just HAPPENED to have gotten a Volt last year for about $12,000 and lucked the hell out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59xOQZwKNxk

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Sky14FFH

[Cobra348]

8 hours ago, Sky14FFH said:

For new cars there is the Hyundai Ionic Blue which gets 58/60mpg city/highway 702 miles of range and the Prius Eco 58/53 with 633 miles of range

 

This statement fragment is why I originally quoted you.

 

4 hours ago, Sky14FFH said:

Yeah none of those are SUVs, wagons or pickups so not sure why you're quoting my post. Those get the best fuel economy so not sure why you're looking at what gets a little worse.  I'm not here to sell cars so whatever you want to do you do.  Those get pretty good gas mileage but during these times my next car is going to be a plugin.

My last fill up I got 47mpg when the computer was showing higher.  Getting those tires was a big fat mistake.

 

I've consistently stated Fords computers are generous as compared to receipt calcs.  My mileage has dropped a couple because a local tire manager convinced me a certain tread was as good as EOM.  And they don't like installing tread they don't sell.  I have communicated my distaste for their tread and made it clear next tires will be EOM - probably mounted elsewhere more accomodating.

 

I'm more comfy in sedans or coupes.  I have driven SUVs as loaners and am highly uncomfortable in them - plus crappy mileage as compared to the FFH.

[Waldo]

13 hours ago, Sky14FFH said:

For the VAST majority of population VERY FEW people drive more than 50 miles a day.

 

 

Exactly, that's why BEVs are the correct answer.  Why suffer the inefficiency of lugging around a gas engine and powertrain that you aren't using, never mind the cost of producing that engine?  I don't see why you think automakers are stupid because they stopped producing cars that lost a lot of money and will be made obsolete by low cost BEVs in just a few years.

 

Ford has come out with the Mach-e and the F150 Lightning, both of which have year long waiting lists and in many cases are selling for over MSRP.  When GM was producing the Volt, they practically had to give them away.

 

In business you can either try to educate people and make them smart, so they buy your product, or you can build a product that stupid people want.  The smart businesses build the stuff the stupid people want.

[Sky14FFH]

Cobra348:  Right but the Hyundai Ionic Blue nor the Prius is an SUV, Station Wagon, Pickup.

 

Waldo: But people (just about everyone) are going to want to do MORE than 300 miles once in a while which the plugins allow you to do.  The 250lb engine weighs NOTHING compared to the battery.  There is no lugging anything. If you don't get it then you don't get it, however, like those I have explained similar things before you'll just have to learn the hard way.  Everyone who owns a Volt is ecstatic about the fact they don't have to fill up for months.

 

But hey there is hope!  A Netherlands company Lightyear 0 has come out with a solar assisted car.  They said the solar panels charge 43 miles per day without plugging in and that theoretically in a climate like Texas you wouldn't need to plugin for 5 months.  In a cloudy climate they said you wouldn't need to plugin for 2 months. The catch is it costs as much as an exotic car.  Ah well best to get a Volt and solar panels.

[Cobra348]

17 minutes ago, Sky14FFH said:

Cobra348:  Right but the Hyundai Ionic Blue nor the Prius is an SUV, Station Wagon, Pickup.

... <snip> ...

 

Go to Hyundai.com, select vehicles link at top.  You will find Ioniq listed under SUVs.  Prius is too small, thus Camry which is closer to FFH size.

[Sky14FFH]

3 hours ago, Cobra348 said:

You will find Ioniq listed under SUVs. 

OMFG  Does this look like an SUV to you?  Even REMOTELY.  There is absolutely NO Lift on it.   It looks like it has the practicality of the hatchback Mondeo.  Ever heard of the phrase "a rose is a rose"?  It doesn't matter what they called it or miscategorized it as on the website.  I swear to god Americans.  If you point at a kangeroo and call it a rabbit they'll think it is a rabbit.  It's not even a crossover.  But I am  not here to sell cars.  I would like to see Ford sell cars, plugin hybrids that get over 50 miles on a charge as I am not much into buying foreign - one reason is Fords are so cheap and easy to fix maintain.  Hondas cost twice as much.  German cars cost 4 times as much and maybe Korean cars are somewhere in that mix.

Edited June 22, 2022 by Sky14FFH

[Sky14FFH]

Ooh I see where you're confused.  You're looking at the Hyundai Ionic 5 which IS an SUV and totally different from the Hyundai Ionic BLUE.  The 5 is lifted, looks like an SUV and costs nearly twice as much. 

On this website https://www.hendersonhyundai.com/inventory/new-2022-hyundai-ioniq-hybrid-blue-fwd-4d-hatchback-kmhc65lc3nu281480/

this one https://www.kbb.com/hyundai/ioniq-hybrid/2022/blue/

this one https://www.jdpower.com/cars/2022/hyundai/ioniq-hybrid/blue-hatchback

this one https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=44160&id=44923

and this one https://www.motortrend.com/cars/hyundai/ioniq/

The Ionic Blue and Plugin are shown as sedan hatchbacks.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Sky14FFH

[Sky14FFH]

Oh my god they're going to be dropping it so it won't appear on the website. 

 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1136092_high-mpg-hyundai-ioniq-plug-in-and-hybrid-versions-are-going-away-as-ioniq-goes-all-ev

Quote

In the U.S., the Hyundai Ioniq Electric was discontinued after the 2021 model year. While the hybrid and plug-in hybrid remained available for the 2022 model year, they appear to have been dropped from order sites and are nearly gone from all dealer inventory.

Oh the stupidity, the stupidity.

[Waldo]

23 hours ago, Sky14FFH said:

 

Waldo: But people (just about everyone) are going to want to do MORE than 300 miles once in a while which the plugins allow you to do.  The 250lb engine weighs NOTHING compared to the battery.  There is no lugging anything. If you don't get it then you don't get it, however, like those I have explained similar things before you'll just have to learn the hard way.  Everyone who owns a Volt is ecstatic about the fact they don't have to fill up for months.

 

 

 

Charging infrastructure will quickly evolve to the point where people can manage the occasional long range trips.

 

But you are still missing the point.  Gas engines and hybrid powertrains cost a LOT of money to PRODUCE.  In 5 years, OEMs will be able to produce a decent 300mile range BEV for say $25K.  But it will easily cost another $5K to produce the PHEV stuff.  In order to keep the margins the same and no externally subsidies, it means a PHEV will cost the customer about $10,000 more than a BEV of equivalent size.  Do you really think people will pay that extra $10K for that rare long trip where they need the gas engine?  Certainly some might, but my wager is not enough will to make it worth the investment by the OEMs.

[MeeLee]

On 6/20/2022 at 2:51 PM, Sky14FFH said:

If you look at this list the actual average mileage on the Volt was 116 and in the summer most people get 59 miles out of  a charge even though the official number was 53 miles.  Actual owners' fuel economy have ranged from 36 to 3579.  I just did 55 miles last week running errands around everywhere including filling my nearly half tank.  I could have done it all on electric.  The scene at the gas station was madness people in their gas guzzling SUVs quarreling with one another.  A few months ago, I met a guy with a beautiful Volt at the store claiming he hadn't filled up for 4 months.

 

The engine size was not a problem in the volt at 1.5l. The Prius Prime has a 1.8 liter and still gets 54 mpg BUT 35 miles it doesn't have enough electric range to run a major set of errands.  However, on the Prius prime the battery pack intrudes on the cargo space significantly, not the Volt.

 

 

What do you think we are driving?  It's an EV and a gas car all in one but without the option to run only on electric.  They discontinued it because they are idiots and have very bad forecasters (ie. cultural anthropologists - saw an opening for one once at Ford) with little vision.

 

The Volt was HALF as expensive as an electric car and was both.

 

 

 

The Volt is a fully fledged plugin hybrid/gas car. Unlike others, when the battery dies, it can still drive regular gasoline.
FFH doesn't work without high voltage battery.
The Volt, like the fusion uses an ecvt. Has a motor/generator, and a power motor (down from 4 electric motors on the first gen volts).
The cheaper variant hybrids like hyundai, have a much smaller battery, and use only 1 motor directly connected to the engine, mated with a 6 spd manual gearbox.
The power motor is the generator as well. They don't have a separate generator, and as such, can't use an ecvt.
Having a smaller engine, makes revving higher less of an issue, compared to bigger engines.
Hence, they don't need an ecvt, to keep the revs low.
They are a much simpler construction.

The original Volt was actually an electric vehicle with a 660cc ptwin gas generator, like the BMW i3, only driving on electric.
They didn't have a CVT or transmission.
It was much cheaper.
But they later decided to change it for a 1.5l, which is way too big imho, and added a transmission, to get power from the engine to the wheels, as it was seen as more economical.
The electric motor by itself is powerful enough to drive the volt.

The 1.5L has a sole function to charge the batteries and provide propulsion, just like the FFH.
That engine normally won't rev above 1500-2000RPM, unless you floor the throttle, or going at or above a certain speed.

Hence, they might as well have put a 1 liter engine in there, if it's not really responsible for any acceleration anyway.

 

If you ask me, Hyundai had it right. A single power motor mated directly to the engine via a clutch, but with a slightly bigger battery pack.
Then Toyota had it right, in allowing low speed acceleration and movement from electric only, and use a gearbox with much taller gear ratios, in that first gear would work from ~20MPH onward, and 5th gear from ~45-55MPH.

The only danger with that, is when the battery runs out of power, and you're stuck in a traffic jam drive at slow speeds..
The engine would need to power the generator, which can only be used as generator, or motor, not both at the same time.

 

Unlike what some forum members here say, I think it's way more beneficial to have a 1 liter engine nearly constant running at 1500-2000RPM, either propelling the vehicle, or charging the battery, than to have a 1.5l cycle on/off 50% of the time.

The meaning of high efficiency, is keeping that engine running at low RPM and harvest as much energy from it as possible, either by using it to help the car cruise at a fixed speed, and/or charge the battery (at the same time).
Also at stop lights, don't turn off the engine, but charge the battery, saving energy for when the light turns green.
If the meaning for the motor is to provide propulsion, not acceleration, this method helps store energy of a small engine, so the bigger electric motor can utilize that for a brisk acceleration.
Much more economical, than have a 1.5 or 2L shut off at a light, just to start and rev to 2.5k+RPM to accelerate the vehicle using a weaker electric motor.

 

The Volt's high mileage is only attributed to people using it as an EV on short trips.
Long trips, and the battery becomes a dead weight.
The engine is too big to drive the car long distances. The gas engine by itself, only gets 35-36MPG highway at best. (meaning at ~60MPH). At 80+MPH or below 40MPH, it gets even less.

[MeeLee]

On 6/21/2022 at 9:23 AM, Waldo said:

 

The Volt was only that price because it was heavily subsidized by both the government and General Motors.  GM (and Ford) clearly saw that making small low-priced PHEVs was not a sustainable business model, even with high gas prices.  As battery costs drop over the next decade, BEVs will be so, so much cheaper to build than PHEVs that PHEVs will become obsolete and anyone who invested in them will have thrown their money down the toilet.

 

Not so sure,. For long distances, like uber drivers, the PHEV is the way to go (if it wasn't for Ford deleting half their trunk space on the Energi).

You don't have the problem current Hybrids have, in that the battery only lasts a good 100k miles.
If the Energi costs $7k more than the Hybrid, and I plan on driving the hybrid well above 200k miles, then the energi makes more sense; since Ford quoted me a $7k replacement cost for the FFH battery.
For now, I can still find $1.5k second hand batteries online, with installation cost by a professional, should be $2k total. But that won't last for very long anymore.

[Sky14FFH]

Waldo: You're missing the point.  You keep seeing it from the wrong point of view.  People don't care about that if the plugin hybrids cost LESS than the electric cars.  I'd rather pay $24,000 for a Volt than a $40,000 for a Tesla that I have to worry about stopping for 20 minutes to charge up on a road trip. Have you ever been on a ?1000mile/per day cross country road trip?  Minutes are precious. Minutes = miles.

 

Quote

will become obsolete and anyone who invested in them will have thrown their money down the toilet.

Ok again, cars are NEVER an investment.  They are always a liability.  This is something you seem to have trouble understanding. Every car you buy is throwing your money down the toilet. It's just would you prefer to thrown more or LESS down the toilet?  You throw LESS money down the toilet with a plugin hybrid liken a volt than you do with an all electric car and you have more autonomy and options with a PHEV.  You only have one option with an electric car and electricity prices are rising too.

 

MeeLee you wrote all that for what?  The volt's 1.5l engine is smaller than the prius prime's 1.8 liter. The bottom line is you can still go 59 miles on a charge in a Volt and if you want to go further you'll get 42 miles to the gallon highway which is about what we get in the FFH.

 

Even if they were equally priced I'd STILL rather have a plugin hybrid than a fully electric car.  The more options the better.

 

GM should bring back the Volt but with a more efficient gas engine.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Sky14FFH

[Waldo]

3 hours ago, Sky14FFH said:

Waldo: You're missing the point.  You keep seeing it from the wrong point of view.  People don't care about that if the plugin hybrids cost LESS than the electric cars.  I'd rather pay $24,000 for a Volt than a $40,000 for a Tesla that I have to worry about stopping for 20 minutes to charge up on a road trip. Have you ever been on a ?1000mile/per day cross country road trip?  Minutes are precious. Minutes = miles.

 

Ok again, cars are NEVER an investment.  They are always a liability.  This is something you seem to have trouble understanding. Every car you buy is throwing your money down the toilet. It's just would you prefer to thrown more or LESS down the toilet?  You throw LESS money down the toilet with a plugin hybrid liken a volt than you do with an all electric car and you have more autonomy and options with a PHEV.  You only have one option with an electric car and electricity prices are rising too.

 

MeeLee you wrote all that for what?  The volt's 1.5l engine is smaller than the prius prime's 1.8 liter. The bottom line is you can still go 59 miles on a charge in a Volt and if you want to go further you'll get 42 miles to the gallon highway which is about what we get in the FFH.

 

Even if they were equally priced I'd STILL rather have a plugin hybrid than a fully electric car.  The more options the better.

 

GM should bring back the Volt but with a more efficient gas engine.

 

 

Why do you keep arguing while ignoring everything I say?  Did you not read the 3 subsequent posts I've made in this thread?  You are still arguing with my first post, and not the other 3,

[Waldo]

3 hours ago, MeeLee said:

 

Not so sure,. For long distances, like uber drivers, the PHEV is the way to go (if it wasn't for Ford deleting half their trunk space on the Energi).

 

 

There's no point in building cars for Uber drivers.  In 5-10 years automated vehicles will replace uber drivers in all major urban areas.  Fully electric cars will whiz around on their own, picking people up and dropping them off, then meandering over to a charge station when they need to.