Active Grill Shutter Problem

[ptjones]

39 minutes ago, billford said:

 

So then if the thermostat opens at 182 and he has trouble reaching 130, what does that indicate? 

To much air going in the grilles, the ICE isn't running enough to heat up the ICE and if you use the heater it only gets worse.  I can go from a cold start on to the FWY for 20 miles before it gets up to 202*F with Grill Covers on.

 

Paul

Edited March 6, 2020 by ptjones

[billford]

31 minutes ago, ptjones said:

To much air going in the grilles, the ICE isn't running enough to heat up the ICE and if you use the heater it only gets worse.  I can go from a cold start on to the FWY for 20 miles before it gets up to 202*F with Grill Covers on.

 

Paul

He's not talking about 202F, he's talking about 130F

 

Your tests prove air going through the grilles  drops engine temperature 5 degrees. So air through the grilles is not a major factor at 130F unless coolant is flowing through the radiator when it should not be.

 

I agree with using the heater, but the engine is running until it hits 128 with the heat on, at least on my Fusion it does and I'm not blocking any air flow through the grille. So its not a lack of engine running to reach 130.

 

Just saying that there is more to it why his car doesn't reach 130 than a large grille, your numbers prove that. 

 

 

[ptjones]

It seems to me that he isn't going very far, maybe be 3-5 miles.  If it's really cold outside it could take a while to get to 130*F especially if you are EVing it a good part of the time. I don't believe that there is anything wrong with his car.  I have taped up all the openings on the front and it does make a difference heating up the ICE.

 

Paul

[billford]

45 minutes ago, ptjones said:

It seems to me that he isn't going very far, maybe be 3-5 miles.  If it's really cold outside it could take a while to get to 130*F especially if you are EVing it a good part of the time. I don't believe that there is anything wrong with his car.  I have taped up all the openings on the front and it does make a difference heating up the ICE.

 

Paul

 

I didn't see where he stated his distance, where was that?

 

My fusion does not even go into ev when cold and with the heat on, engine is running all the time until it hits 128, at that point it then it turns off into ev,  but it will reach and pass it without taping or blocking anything. 

 

If I turn the heat off, it goes into ev instantly. 

 

He also didn't say if his engine was actually running when it doesn't reach 130 with the heat on.

 

 

 

 

 

[Sky14FFH]

On 3/6/2020 at 8:37 AM, Waldo said:

 

Good grief, what a ridiculous statement...grill shutters and it was all based around the aero benefit. 

 

Nope sorry you're wrong.  Can you say AERODYNAMIC? Aero is a theme on Windows 7 or something relating to aeronautics. You don't even know the right words to use.  Here's the scientific report (thanks to ptjones) on active grill shutters improving mpg's through THERMAL MANAGEMENT.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/276116569_Evaluation_of_Impact_of_Active_Grille_Shutter_on_Vehicle_Thermal_Management

I can see how you could have gotten easily confused.   The "drag resistance" they are writing of is not AERODYNAMIC drag resistance from air flow over the front of the car but from the viscosity of the lubricants when below optimal operating temperatures.  We all know it isn't just the lower grade fuel that reduces mpgs during the winter, but also the viscosity of the engine oil and other lubricants between the moving parts.

If you read on it says,

Quote

" An AGS system will allow airflow through the grille when demand on cooling system or air conditioning system is high.   Therefore, the operating points for the grille shutter should take into account the effect of temperature rise for under-hood and underbody components and the performance of the cooling and climate control systems. "

It's all about increasing fuel economy by keeping the engine temperatures high (and cool when under heavy a/c load).  Problem is they are terribly inadequate.

It's obvious to any 12 year old in drafting class that the front grills on cars hurt aeroDYNAMICS, increase coefficient of drag and no amount of blocking them from BEHIND is going to reduce that by any significant amount.  If anything it creates a scoop or parachute effect INCREASING aerodynamic drag.
If you have sat in on meetings with engineers, you have absolutely no business being there since the obvious is way over your head.
Why does this remind me of the movie I just watched Ford vs Ferarri and the arguments of Ken Miles and Carroll Shelby had with the utter knumbskulls at Ford?

Edited March 8, 2020 by Sky14FFH

[Sky14FFH]

On 3/6/2020 at 8:37 AM, Waldo said:

Air flowing through a grill into the radiator and then all around the engine compartment is bad for drag.

Do you REALLY believe that air flowing through the grill into a closed compartment then met with the resistance of closed shutters is ANY BETTER for drag??  No the air would have to not even flow into the grill to begin with and that's where a grill block comes in.  This is unreal.
 

Quote

" Air flowing up and over the hood is much better.  "

  No shite sherlock, and how is it supposed to do just that with a jagged grill with fins restricting its movement over the hood?

Quote

" At first when you fill the bucket the water gets "trapped" in the bottom of the bucket.  But once that bucket gets full, where does the water go? "

It's still flowing into the bucket creating downwards pressure (or backwards against the car in the case of the grill) but with the added resistance of the water turbulently flowing out of the bucket and against the ground (or in this case the car) so it is actually increasing the frontal size of the car with that turbulent flow just as the shockwave does on a jet as it reaches the sound barrier.

Quote

" At first when you fill the bucket the water gets "trapped" in the bottom of the bucket.  But once that bucket gets full, where does the water go? "

Lol yes it does. Do you even wash your own car??  Go outside with bucket and a garden hose. Fill the bucket.  Once the bucket is filled KEEP filling the bucket with the garden hose.  The pressure of the water filling the bucket is STILL going into the bucket, with the added pressure of the water spilling out onto the ground against the ground (the car in this analogy).
 

Quote

" But it would be extremely expensive to make a unique grill opening just for the FFH "

It cost me $20 of polycarbonate and I thought that was going for kinda expensive so I called around for places that were selling it for scraps.  It was kinda far away so probably cost me $3 in gas.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Sky14FFH

[Sky14FFH]

On 3/6/2020 at 3:24 PM, billford said:

He's not talking about 202F, he's talking about 130F

I didn't see where he stated his distance, where was that?

My fusion does not even go into ev when cold and with the heat on, engine is running all the time until it hits 128, at that point it then it turns off into ev,  but it will reach and pass it without taping or blocking anything. 

If I turn the heat off, it goes into ev instantly. 

He also didn't say if his engine was actually running when it doesn't reach 130 with the heat on.

I didn't have to state distance. It is evident.  But yes I do a lot of 3 to 8 mile hops over the period of 3 to 4 hours. 
Nor does mine go into ev when cold and with the heat on before 128.  So you're experiencing the same problem as I am so why are you arguing?

In the climate I am in it will not pass it by very much without blocking.
The air flowing through the enormous grill, through the inadequate grill shutters and over the engine and other components is keeping the engine cold enough to prevent it from heating up much above 130 degrees just like air would on air cooled engines. When the heater is not on, the engine shuts off at 115 degrees or so.  When the heater is on the engine shuts off at 130 degrees, however 130 degrees is not a high enough engine temperature to heat the compartment at anything below 20 degrees F outside temperature.  Having the heater on and with the cold air flow over the engine the engine temp quickly drops back down to 118 and then the motor comes on again, wasting mpgs and sending luke warm air to the cabin.

  Now with the grill block, air flowing over the engine is minimized and it quickly reaches 130degrees (maybe 2-3 miles into the drive), then the engine shuts off and continues to warm to about 140.  After turning the heat it will cool the engine to say 128F at which time the engine will come on again and reach 152 until the cycle repeats until it reaches 181.  I was finally able to get up to 199F yesterday but that was with freeway driving and constant engine on.  37 degrees ambient temperature.  That was reduced to about 162 degrees when I got down to lower speeds.  This is WITH the grill block btw.  199 would never have been possible without it.  Going to adjust it this week so no air is slipping through the sides.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Sky14FFH

[Waldo]

19 hours ago, Sky14FFH said:

It's obvious to any 12 year old in drafting class that the front grills on cars hurt aeroDYNAMICS, increase coefficient of drag and no amount of blocking them from BEHIND is going to reduce that by any significant amount.  If anything it creates a scoop or parachute effect INCREASING aerodynamic drag.
If you have sat in on meetings with engineers, you have absolutely no business being there since the obvious is way over your head.
Why does this remind me of the movie I just watched Ford vs Ferarri and the arguments of Ken Miles and Carroll Shelby had with the utter knumbskulls at Ford?

 

Apparently you're understanding of aerodynamics is at about the 12 year old level then because your statement is incorrect.  I'm not saying grill shutters are as good as no grill, the data that I've seen shows they are at best 75% effective.  But that's still pretty significant.   All they have to do is make the airflow over the front of the car better than the air flowing into the grill and all around the engine compartment and the net effect will be positive.

 

If you do the math, you would find that the thermal management benefit is not zero, but it's not enough (at least on the average car) to justify the cost of the shutters on it's own.

 

Did you even read the SAE paper you referenced?  The very first section describes the aerodynamic benefits of the shutter system.  Direct quote: "Therefore, at  higher  speeds (>80 km/h) the aerodynamic benefits become significant."    Now maybe you missed that part because it's under the section called "ESTIMATION OF AERO DRAG REDUCTION" and since you apparently don't understand what "aero" means, you might have just skipped over that.

 

[ptjones]

2 hours ago, Waldo said:

 

Apparently you're understanding of aerodynamics is at about the 12 year old level then because your statement is incorrect.  I'm not saying grill shutters are as good as no grill, the data that I've seen shows they are at best 75% effective.  But that's still pretty significant.   All they have to do is make the airflow over the front of the car better than the air flowing into the grill and all around the engine compartment and the net effect will be positive.

 

If you do the math, you would find that the thermal management benefit is not zero, but it's not enough (at least on the average car) to justify the cost of the shutters on it's own.

 

Did you even read the SAE paper you referenced?  The very first section describes the aerodynamic benefits of the shutter system.  Direct quote: "Therefore, at  higher  speeds (>80 km/h) the aerodynamic benefits become significant."    Now maybe you missed that part because it's under the section called "ESTIMATION OF AERO DRAG REDUCTION" and since you apparently don't understand what "aero" means, you might have just skipped over that.

 

From the stand point of FFH/CMAX you can't separate the mpg improvement from getting the WT to operating temp from AERO improvement.  From my graph you can see a fairly parallel curves, maybe it's getting a little wider at the top so the difference is 4-5 mpg. To me it looks like the Grill Covers are improving up to 3 mpg which seems alot so I don't think the shutters are doing much AERO improvement. From my testing on many HWY trips the best WT for the best mpg's is 215-225*F and the best OT is 85*F+.

[Sky14FFH]

On 3/9/2020 at 8:15 AM, Waldo said:

 

Apparently you're understanding of aerodynamics is at about the 12 year old level

Says the man who cannot even spell YOUR.

 

On 3/9/2020 at 8:15 AM, Waldo said:

Did you even read the SAE paper you referenced?  The very first section describes the aerodynamic benefits of the shutter system.  Direct quote: "Therefore, at  higher  speeds (>80 km/h) the aerodynamic benefits become significant."    Now maybe you missed that part because it's under the section called "ESTIMATION OF AERO DRAG REDUCTION" and since you apparently don't understand what "aero" means, you might have just skipped over that.

You don't even understand what you are reading.  It is ok. English and language in general comes as difficult for your type.  Do you understand what the word ESTIMATION means?  What you cherry picked here is a description of how in general the benefits of aerodynamics become more significant as you increase in speed.  They are describing how all improvements, not the grill shutters, in aerodynamics becomes more significant with speed.  Having the entire front of the grill smoothed and blocked off is a lot more effective at improving aerodynamics than grill shutters buried behind the grill would be.  Here's the entire statement.
 

Quote

Aerodynamic force is proportional to velocity squared (Drag= CDA*½ρV 2 , where CD = coefficient of drag, A = reference frontal area, and ½ρV 2 = dynamic pressure or q), and thus aerodynamic power results are proportional to velocity cubed (Power = Force × Velocity). Therefore, at higher speeds (>80 km/h) the aerodynamic benefits become significant.

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Sky14FFH

[Waldo]

Good grief, 3 weeks and you still can't figure it out.  "the aerodynamic benefits of the grill shutters become significant."  The entire sentence right before the one you quoted describes the setup of the grill shutters.  In the English language, usually what comes first sets the context for what comes next.  It later states right in the paper that "In  this  case, the  3%  aero  drag reduction  translates into  407watts  benefit (vehicle  load  reduction)  at 105  km/h".  In case that isn't clear, it means that the grill shutters provide a 3% reduction in drag.  That would make them an improvement in aerodynamics, not a degradation.  A "vehicle load reduction" means that by having grill shutters, the engine can do less work, which means it can save fuel.  105km/h is about 65mph, which is the speed many people drive at every day, meaning the benefit can realistically be noticed by anybody.

 

But you're right, I did mix up "you're" and "your".  I'm usually pretty good about that, so sorry, you got me there.

[Rocky91]

Found

On

Road

Dead

Ford is a joke! I have a 2018 Ford Fusion titanium that I have had already for two years I bought the extended warranty and almost 2 yrs later I have to replace the motor. I was coming home from work and lost all power had to literally drive my car 5 mph all the way home so I had it towed to the dealership and they told me that my car over heated because of a manufacturer defect cylinders 3,5,and 6 all had cracks and the coolant was leaking into the engine after talking for a week with the dealership trying to use my warranty they finally approved to fix it but instead of putting in a brand new motor they wanted to put in a used motor so after another week of fighting with them they finally said ok we will put in a new motor I had to pay a $300 deductible which was better then paying $10,000 for motor but anyway...the service department called me and said my car was ready so I went to pick it up and literally 2 min after I left the check engine light came on so then they told me that it could be the axle since they had damaged it when installing the motor so they said they will order new axle and that it was ok for me to drive my car the way it was so I used it for like 1 day when I noticed that my dashboard said engine coolant over temp...that’s right my motor was overheating again so I took it back and they checked it out and told me it was the grill automatic cover thing that that part isn’t covered by the warranty and they want me to pay $1800 to replace not only the automatic grill shutters but also to replace my bumper and since the new bumper would come in white and not the tan color I have on my car they would have to paint the bumper and charge me for it...they also said that they have to remove the motor to make sure the new motor don’t have a crack in it either...it has been almost 2 month total and still don’t have my car back...FORD sucks D*** and they are a joke they are stupid and don’t know anything....and loaner? Ha! What loaner! They told me we don’t offer loaners go rent a car...or go walking or ask for a ride have a good day! For real Ford?! You suck! 

[Psihawk]

So what year/models have the active grill?  Mine is a 2016 Titanium.  

[ptjones]

All ford Hybrids have active grill shutter since 2013.

 

Paul