Active Grill Shutter Problem

[billford]

Thank you for the additional information, Waldo. I get it. For now, the dealership reinstalled everything and left the AGSA unplugged, at my request. They say the CEL has gone away and might or might not reappear. I paid around $500 for this result (removal of front bumper, etc. to get at the part that they said needed to be replaced to the tune of a $600 part, which I chose not to have installed). We'll see what the long-term result is. As long as the CEL stays off long enough for me to get the car inspected before 10/31, then I'll try to find a way to justify the expense in my mind. This has left me with a bad taste for the dealership and the car, I'm sorry to say. I understand Ford needing to shave off miles in order to meet the EPA standards, but to do it in a way that the owner must pay this much to deal with what is basically a non-essential part is just not right in my book. The car just is 2 years old. Had I not voiced my complaint to the service manager, I'd have paid $1200 to fix this with the installation of a new AGSA.

 

It is an essential part.

In colder temperatures, its needed to help keep heat in the engine area. Its part of the hybrid package that keeps everything working in sync.

Edited October 18, 2018 by billford

[ptjones]

All Fusions have Grill Shutters, not just Hybrids. :)

 

Paul

[billford]

All Fusions have Grill Shutters, not just Hybrids. :)

 

Paul

 

Yes, they do.

They have a job to do and they do it quite well. Just more important on the hybrids than the others. When you look at all the air dams under the power train, between the sides of the hood and fenders, at the front and rear of the hood, they are trying to keep heat in there for a reason.

Having shutters blocked open, as in the previous post, wastes heat, fuel and money, something a hybrid owner normally wants to avoid.

Edited October 18, 2018 by billford

[ptjones]

 

Yes, they do.

They have a job to do and they do it quite well. Just more important on the hybrids than the others. When you look at all the air dams under the power train, between the sides of the hood and fenders, at the front and rear of the hood, they are trying to keep heat in there for a reason.

Having shutters blocked open, as in the previous post, wastes heat, fuel and money, something a hybrid owner normally wants to avoid.

Actually the shutters don't work that well and that is why I developed Grill Covers to solve the problem and gain up to 4 mpg. Link: http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/11745-how-to-drive-a-ford-fusion-hybrid-to-get-great-gas-mileage/page-1 This explains the problem and solution in this YouTube video. :)

 

Paul

[billford]

On the video, the coolant temperatures reach 215 on a flat road. What does the transmission and coolant read driving up mountain grades with the grille blocked?

 

Have you monitored the a/c pressures with a lack of air flow through the condenser with the grille blocked? I suspect it would be very high.

Edited October 19, 2018 by billford

[ptjones]

On the video, the coolant temperatures reach 215 on a flat road. What does the transmission and coolant read driving up mountain grades with the grille blocked?

 

Have you monitored the a/c pressures with a lack of air flow through the condenser with the grille blocked? I suspect it would be very high.

I currently have 212k miles on my CMAX and go 13k - 15k ICE miles between oil changes. I have BlackStone Labs check my oil, ICE is in excellent shape. 202*F to 230*F seems to be the best operating temp range with higher in the range a little better for MPG's. Shutters don't open on HWY until 215 WT which takes 20 to 30 minutes when starting out cold with Grill Covers on. For City driving WT rarely gets to 202*F with Grill Covers on. My normal WT range with Grill Covers on is 215*F to 230*F, but if I'm going to be doing alot of hill climbing I will remove lower Grill Cover to drop WT temps 10+ *F. There is no reason to remover center Grill Cover as most of the cooling is done at lower gill like radiator, trans, inverter and A/C. As far as the A/C goes the fan operates all the time when the A/C is on, by the way the fan is very powerful, with center Grill Cover on and trying to install lower Grill Cover I have had the lower Grill Cover pulled out of my hands and sucked into lower grill hole to my surprise. :) I don't notice much difference in cooling power of the A/C with lower Grill Cover on or off. Of course the center Grill Cover is on all the time. :)

 

Paul

[billford]

I currently have 212k miles on my CMAX and go 13k - 15k ICE miles between oil changes. I have BlackStone Labs check my oil, ICE is in excellent shape. 202*F to 230*F seems to be the best operating temp range with higher in the range a little better for MPG's. Shutters don't open on HWY until 215 WT which takes 20 to 30 minutes when starting out cold with Grill Covers on. For City driving WT rarely gets to 202*F with Grill Covers on. My normal WT range with Grill Covers on is 215*F to 230*F, but if I'm going to be doing alot of hill climbing I will remove lower Grill Cover to drop WT temps 10+ *F. There is no reason to remover center Grill Cover as most of the cooling is done at lower gill like radiator, trans, inverter and A/C. As far as the A/C goes the fan operates all the time when the A/C is on, by the way the fan is very powerful, with center Grill Cover on and trying to install lower Grill Cover I have had the lower Grill Cover pulled out of my hands and sucked into lower grill hole to my surprise. :) I don't notice much difference in cooling power of the A/C with lower Grill Cover on or off. Of course the center Grill Cover is on all the time. :)

 

Paul

 

Interesting normal grille cover temperatures, 215 to 230.

 

The low speed fan turns on between 215 to 220. The fan turns on at high speed before 230. So the engine is trying to cool itself down well before it reaches 230 but cant because of a lack of air flow.

 

Reaching 230 is way to hot for my comfort, but I guess its ok if your watching the temperatures carefully and trying to squeeze the extra mpg's.

 

Since the fan can't do its job with the grille covers on, maybe disconnect it to save on wasted electrical load?

Edited October 20, 2018 by billford

[ptjones]

If running WT to 230*F were harm full you would see problems with the oil analysis from BlackStone Labs and with 212k mi. on my CMAX my results are better now than when new. :) The ECM doesn't seem to do anything until WT reaches 246*F when the overheating warning comes on, cooling system is designed to go to 263*F before it starts to boil the coolant. Also when the fan comes on the shutters also open and WT drops quickly as you can see in the video with Grill Covers.

Interesting that I only notice the fan coming on when the A/C or Defrost is on.

I made YouTube videos back in 2016 of shutter operations and from the videos you can see shutters are either open or closed, no in between. In A/C operation the shutters are open all the way all the time no matter speed or WT. Link: http://fordcmaxhybri...pg-gain/page-11and post #211. Under normal operating conditions shutters open at 210*F at 55 mph and 215*F at 63+ mph.

Paul

[Tornike]

Hello all!
 

 I own ford fusion hybrid 2017.

 

Had some problem and replaced grille shutter, but  used old shutters motor.

when i look at my shutter it is working but not symmetrically. Like upper bigger one is still open ( not closed properly ) while the smaller one which is in front of small radiator is 100% closed.

i dont know it must be like this or not. Maybe they mad mistake while connecting the motor to new shutter.
 

when i start the engine, upper and lower both start to move but not symmetrically.

 

can you help? 

[Tornike]

10 minutes ago, Tornike said:

Hello all!
 

 I own ford fusion hybrid 2017.

 

Had some problem and replaced grille shutter, but  used old shutters motor.

when i look at my shutter it is working but not symmetrically. Like upper bigger one is still open ( not closed properly ) while the smaller one which is in front of small radiator is 100% closed.

i dont know it must be like this or not. Maybe they mad mistake while connecting the motor to new shutter.
 

when i start the engine, upper and lower both start to move but not symmetrically.

 

can you help? 

 

[ptjones]

I know on the CMAX shutter operations are controlled by one motor, not sure about FFH, but I would think so. maybe there is an adjustment to be made. 

 

Paul

[Tornike]

7 hours ago, ptjones said:

I know on the CMAX shutter operations are controlled by one motor, not sure about FFH, but I would think so. maybe there is an adjustment to be made. 

 

Paul

In ffh we also have one motor, i just want to know Do i have to make regulation or it is like that 

[ptjones]

10 hours ago, Tornike said:

In ffh we also have one motor, i just want to know Do i have to make regulation or it is like that 

I think there is a problem if they aren't shut at the same time. There must be some kind of adjustment on the controlling arm going up and down. On the CMAX it is one piece.

 

Paul

[billford]

On 2/19/2020 at 11:49 AM, Tornike said:

Hello all!
 

 I own ford fusion hybrid 2017.

 

Had some problem and replaced grille shutter, but  used old shutters motor.

when i look at my shutter it is working but not symmetrically. Like upper bigger one is still open ( not closed properly ) while the smaller one which is in front of small radiator is 100% closed.

i dont know it must be like this or not. Maybe they mad mistake while connecting the motor to new shutter.
 

when i start the engine, upper and lower both start to move but not symmetrically.

 

can you help? 

 

Use a scanner and check for codes first. 

[ptjones]

They should be working together, sounds like they didn't install it right.

 

Paul

[Sky14FFH]

I was concerned my shutters weren't closing.  So you can test for whether they are working properly.  Use a flashlight and look through the grill and have someone turn on the ignition inside the car. The shutters will do a self check and open and close.  If they don't then there might be a problem. 

 

[I find the shutter idea poor engineering in general.  These kinds of things should be passive and they shouldn't have made the front grill openings so enormous and prevents then engine from reaching operating temperature.  No 4 cylinder needs that.]

Edited February 23, 2020 by Sky14FFH

[CV12Steve]

On 2/23/2020 at 8:27 AM, Sky14FFH said:

I was concerned my shutters weren't closing.  So you can test for whether they are working properly.  Use a flashlight and look through the grill and have someone turn on the ignition inside the car. The shutters will do a self check and open and close.  If they don't then there might be a problem. 

 

[I find the shutter idea poor engineering in general.  These kinds of things should be passive and they shouldn't have made the front grill openings so enormous and prevents then engine from reaching operating temperature.  No 4 cylinder needs that.]

One grill opening that passively allows ideal engine temp in Death Valley summer and Yellowknife winter? Don't think it's ever been done.

[ptjones]

16 hours ago, CV12Steve said:

One grill opening that passively allows ideal engine temp in Death Valley summer and Yellowknife winter? Don't think it's ever been done.

Grill Covers are the closest thing to controlling WT, you can always remove lower Grill Cover if ICE WT gets to high.  I have driven across AZ when it was 108*F during the Summer  with Grill Covers on, no A/C(ICE runs cooler with A/C on) and it didn't have hardly any difference in WT than at 85*F using a ScanGaugeII , I usually try to keep WT between 215-225*F for the best mpg's.  WT is a reflection on the % of the time the ICE is on and how hard it is working.  As the outside temperature (OT) goes up the air density goes down creating less drag and improving mpg's.  With the ICE working less hard the WT goes down as the OT goes up, the net effect is very little temp change.  Also Grill Covers lower Aero Drag so the ICE is running a little less and not as hard lowering WT.

 

Paul

[Sky14FFH]

On 3/1/2020 at 6:17 PM, CV12Steve said:

One grill opening that passively allows ideal engine temp in Death Valley summer and Yellowknife winter? Don't think it's ever been done.

You must have been born recently. They've been done for decades.  Look at the front end of the Eagle Talon.  Look at just about all Hondas and Toyotas.  I don't live in yellowknife, even in the area where this company is headquartered the engine struggles to get above 140 degrees and even with the grill block on takes a while to get to 160 degrees.  No one lives in Death Valley in the summer.

[Waldo]

13 hours ago, Sky14FFH said:

You must have been born recently. They've been done for decades.  Look at the front end of the Eagle Talon.  Look at just about all Hondas and Toyotas.  I don't live in yellowknife, even in the area where this company is headquartered the engine struggles to get above 140 degrees and even with the grill block on takes a while to get to 160 degrees.  No one lives in Death Valley in the summer.

 

You must not be an engineer.  Ford has to design it's vehicles for all people in all conditions.  Have you ever been to Death Valley in the summer?  I have, and I wouldn't want a small frontal opening restricting the airflow through my A/C condensor.  I wasn't the only person there either.

 

Grill shutters are actually one of the most efficient $/mpg features on modern cars, that's why just about everything has them now.  And the Fusion frontal opening wasn't designed for a hybrid, it was designed for the worst case Fusion (probably the 2.0L turbo) and it doesn't make sense for Ford to tool up unique parts for the low volume hybrid.

[Sky14FFH]

Waldo:  You do understand the cars are not getting up to operating temperature don't you?  They aren't getting anywhere near it and very little heat is coming out of the vents enough to warm the cabin in below 32 degree weather.  You understand that right?  The system is overdone.

[ptjones]

1 hour ago, Sky14FFH said:

Waldo:  You do understand the cars are not getting up to operating temperature don't you?  They aren't getting anywhere near it and very little heat is coming out of the vents enough to warm the cabin in below 32 degree weather.  You understand that right?  The system is overdone.

I think what Waldo was trying to say is the cooling system wasn't made pacifically  for a Hybrid and it shows with the WT.  Apparently FORD thought it was good enough and didn't spend the money for special cooling system for the Hybrids. I they could make it as effective as Grill Covers, they would have gained 4 mpg.

 

Paul 

[billford]

3 hours ago, Sky14FFH said:

Waldo:  You do understand the cars are not getting up to operating temperature don't you?  They aren't getting anywhere near it and very little heat is coming out of the vents enough to warm the cabin in below 32 degree weather.  You understand that right?  The system is overdone.

 

I prefer to have the system overdone than underdone.

 

As for cold days, I find the heated seats warm up very quickly and  plug in the block heater a few hours before driving. 

 

 

 

[ptjones]

31 minutes ago, billford said:

 

 

As for cold days, I find the heated seats warm up very quickly and  plug in the block heater a few hours before driving. 

 

 

 

That is what I do.

 

Paul

[Waldo]

17 hours ago, ptjones said:

I think what Waldo was trying to say is the cooling system wasn't made pacifically  for a Hybrid and it shows with the WT.  Apparently FORD thought it was good enough and didn't spend the money for special cooling system for the Hybrids. I they could make it as effective as Grill Covers, they would have gained 4 mpg.

 

Paul 

 

Exactly, the hybrid was ever at most what, like 10% of total Fusion volume.  Plus the consequences of not getting up to operating temperature in cold conditions doesn't hit the EPA cycle and thus doesn't affect the window sticker fuel economy, so Ford would have very little incentive to try to do anything different.