bcrisp

Thanks for posting that, hermans. 12 iterations makes you a master at this :) Let's see how that works out: $32,600 (MSRP) - 3,260 (10%) = $29,340 (employee price). That's just $219 more than my unejumahkated guess. 29,340 (emp pricing; $734 under Invoice - sweet) x .04 (shareholder rate) = 1,173.60 + 29,340 = 30,513.60 (shareholder sale price) -or- $439.60 over Invoice (30,074) -or- $263.40 under Partner Pricing (30,777). Mileage may vary :)

Acdii, This is interesting and THANK YOU for posting it. I looked up this Partner Pricing and used Edmunds to determine Invoice price. Their MSRP was spot-on with Ford's price list. In this theorhetical example, I used the 2014 HyTi with no options. MRSP = $32,600. Invoice = $30,074. Partner Price = $30,777, which comes to $703 over invoice. When I buy a car in this price range, my price target is Invoice + $500. Of course I don't always get that, as there's many variables that work toward what a dealership is willing to let it go for. So that Partner Pricing would be great for someone wanting a very efficient sale price determination (it's predetermined), or for one that wants to forego all the back-n-forth with a salesman, which takes time, effort, emotional pain with a good injection of poker face. I'm really curious what the employee price rate is so that I can determine if shareholder pricing (employee rate + 4%, per the letter Murphy posted) is a better deal.

Murphy, Wow, how I wish I would have known about Ford's 'thank you' to shareholders. I looked up that link and this flavor of X-pricing equates to 4% over employee pricing. Do you know how much employee pricing is? That + 4% has to be a darn site better than the best deal I could negotiate as John Q. Public. Had I known, I would've purchased Ford's stock. Given their aversion to Gov't bailout during the recession, unlike those other American car manufacturer bastuds, I believed Ford deserved our consumer dollars. And, had I made the leap and purchased their stock around the time I placed my order for the 2013 FFH, I would've made a cool 54.7%. Oct 31st 2012 price was $10.70/share. 13 June 2014 closing price was $16.56. Ain't no bank in the world that'll give you that kind of return. I'm sure everyone's aware by now of Ford making it right with gas mileage estimates on the 2013/2014 models. Unlike GM that let people die over concealing their engineering mistakes, Ford fessed up on 12 June and issued a statement stating FFH owners will be getting a check for $775 to make up the difference in fuel cost (47mpg down to 42mpg). Ford lost 30-cents in stock price since their announcement but their brand value rose 56% in the latest Brand Z survey. Things are looking up and I still think they deserve our dollars. All companies make mistakes sometimes but at least Ford fessed up and they're making it right ... and they're not waiting 10 years to do it. I grew up loving the Chevy Camaro (owned 3 of them) but I wouldn't own one if it were free these days. GM won't see a dime of my money. I'm off to do some research to see if now's a good entry point for Ford's stock. I'm clueless about employee pricing but I'll take a wild stab and say that it's equivalent to the invoice price minus the holdback rate. That may be plausible, given it means the dealership doesn't lose anything (actually they'd still make a little). Under that model for a 2014 HyTi, the shareholder Friends & Family price would be $200 over invoice, or $491 better than Partner Pricing ($30,777): Ford holdback = 953.25 (3% MSRP - dest) HyTi invoice 30,074 - 953 (holdback - dest) = 29,121 emp price x .04 (shareholder rate) = 1,164.84 + 29,121 emp price = 30,285.84 (shareholder price) If that's true, it's a much better deal than Partner Pricing and, given Ford's trend for stock appreciation, well worth the investment.

I hope I didn't portray myself as a lawyer because I'm the furthest thing from it. Okay, maybe not THE furthest thing, since I'm not writing you from prison. I swear! :) From reading the highlighted text, I would interpret your State sales tax law to read that you're paying tax on the initial sales price withOUT consideration of any rebate/incentive. Your credit then applies after taxes are levied. That would be plausible, given that lawmakers generally make these laws to benefit the State's revenue, not the consumer's. So the higher price wins (for them). Note that Destination is also tallied in the sales tax levy. Based on the itemized pricing you listed, "freight" = Destination charge. Everybody pays Destination and it's listed on the factory sticker. That accounts for hauling that vehicle on a train from Mexico to the original destination dealership lot. That freight charge is not trucking it to Alabama from Maryland. That would be extra but I see you're making a little vaca out of the deal, and any time spent like that with your family is absolutely priceless! I grew up in Baltimore so say hello to the Ravens for me, and if you get time, pick up a crab cake or two (or three or four or five)!

-- That's why you have to be a trained lawyer to understand it :) Verbose language helps justify their fees.

larryiwill, I don't live in Alabama but your rates/fees should be applied per the State you're registering your vehicle. Rather than provide my unqualified opinion (I'm not a tax attorney or legislator) as to what the charges are and under what conditions, I found some source data on your State's website that you can use in your discussion w/DMV and dealership. What Is The Tax Rate? Source: Alabama Dept of Revenue - http://revenue.alabama.gov/salestax/cutax.cfm Automotive Rate - 2% “If you purchased an automotive vehicle from outside the state and did not pay the casual sales and use tax when you purchased your tag, or if no tag is required for the vehicle, you owe use tax at the rate of 2% of the purchase price. Examples of items not requiring tags which qualify as automotive vehicles include off-road motorcycles, ATV's and self-propelled construction equipment.” “General Sales Tax” = 4% (not motor vehicles!) http://revenue.alabama.gov/salestax/staterates.cfm Registration (Tag) Fee: $23 Source: http://revenue.alabama.gov/motorvehicle/mvforms/feeschedule.cfm Maybe the ‘transfer’ rate is $16.50 from your old car. I'm sure they used the new tag fee out of habit or didn't realize you want to transfer a tag. Sales Price, as defined by Alabama Code, Section 40-23-60: http://alisondb.legislature.state.al.us/acas/CodeOfAlabama/1975/coatoc.htm (10) SALES PRICE. The total amount for which tangible personal property is sold, including any services, including transportation, that are a part of the sale, valued in money, whether paid in money or otherwise, and includes any amount for which credit is given to the purchaser by the seller, without any deduction therefrom on account of the cost of the property sold, the cost of the materials used, labor or service cost, interest charged, losses or any other expenses whatsoever; provided, that cash discounts allowed and taken on sales shall not be included and sales price shall not include the amount charged for property returned by customers when the entire amount charged therefor is refunded either in cash or by credit. I'll also add that you should ask how the car is arriving in Alabama from Maryland. Due to high transportation costs (freight train, truck), they're likely having someone drive it down. Understand that you'll be absorbing the depreciation on that many road miles before you even take possession. You'll then need to be extra diligent about inspecting the car on arrival, before you accept it. Did the driver spill a McDonald's drink on the way down? Maybe he picked up a nick or two in the paint from rocks kicked up by a truck on the road. Did someone bang the door with their door while he was at a rest stop?

I agree 100% with acdii, and that's what I meant by If you're content with the terms, then that's all that matters. Same goes for hybridbear's post.

A quick question regarding the negotiated price. Does it include the destination fee or not? - The way you describe it, not likely, but it should have been. They also didn't include taxes, doc fee (several hundred $), etc. If you said something like, "I want it for $nn,nnn on the road", that says you want all the fees included in the price you're offering. Otherwise, if you didn't talk about it, the'll naturally tack those on to the sales price. You should call and ask them, as there are no rules for that, so no one here can tell you with certainty about the destination fee when they weren't privy to the communiques with your salesman. - That $1k discount on the new vehicle looks like the FFH Customer Cash in lieu of accepting their 0% on financing. Ford gives that to everyone (no sweat off your dealership's back), whether they sell that car for $10 or $100,000. So it has nothing to do with your trade-in. They're using that as leverage to push the paid price down for your trade. We're not here to tell you that you made a mistake or did a great job on your negotiation shills. If you're content with the terms, then that's all that matters, regardless of what anyone says. Remember, the dealership is there to make as much profit as possible; that's their job. You'd and I would do likewise if it were ours. It's the consumers job to educate themselves (or not) but as long as you're happy with the deal, then congratulations are in order, you're the owner of a Brand New FUSION!!! :) You're going to love the car by the way.

Would the invoice price include all the other cash back incentives and Trade Assist cash? - No. The invoice price is the invoice price. Even Edmunds.com shows incentives separately. Recall that incentives are year/model-based and of limited duration. Depending on the time of year, projected sales numbers, and whether consumer-A vs. consumer-B qualifies (college student, fireman, military, Ford loyalty bucks, etc.), the incentives vary, change often, and dealerships may offer additional incentives. The MSRP (aka 'sticker price') may show either some Ford discount on a particular option package and the dealership may also have listed a discount, or more often, dealer-installed add-ons (e.g., paint protectant) or "market value" increases. Sometimes a hot car (new Shelby) will be marked-up by the dealer. When I viewed the FFHTi, for example, they had a markup listed, and quickly backed up when I stated I don't pay those things. Trading a car. - Different thread but I'll offer you this. Trade-in value is ALWAYS lower than Private Sale or Retail. Retail is what a dealer expects to sell it for, and their profit is made from your trade-in price. If you show me someone that got a way better price on their old car than trade-in value, I'll show you someone that paid closer to MSRP on the new vehicle. NEVER tell a salesman you're trading until you've settled all costs on the new vehicle. You're surrendering any leverage on pricing, as that little nugget is an ace in their pocket when they know it up front. That is, you'll be led to believe you're getting a great deal on a trade-in, when in fact, they're making up the difference on the new vehicle. I've had salesmen meet me at the car as I'm pulling in and "Hi, trading in today?" is one of the first questions they might ask. A good salesman will work that question into general discussion while you're perusing the lot. Whether or not I really am trading, my answer is always NO. Once you're about to sign for the new one (i.e., final price agreed upon), put the pen down and say, "ya know, I was going to sell my old one myself, but what would you give me on a trade-in?" Now you can assess the value of the trade-in offer without having them confuse you with the price value on the new one. If you feel like you're getting robbed then on the trade-in deal (you can negotiate that offer, of course), then you have the option of walking out and trying a different dealer. If you're not in a hurry and have the energy, you can alwyas get a better price selling the old one yourself. - Fact: most dealerships make more money on used cars than new. That's why they love trade-ins. A good deal on a new car is somewhere in the neighborhood of $500 (or less) over Invoice (highly dependant on model demand, economy, etc.). Now check that KBB source you referenced - there's way more than $500 difference between Trade-in and Retail on most cars. Different dealerships use different sources, too (KBB is one, NADA another). Look up those values BEFORE going in so you what to expect. Then be honest about your vehicle, whether it's in "fair" condition, vs excellent, etc. Those are highly subjective but decide on your lowest acceptable price so you can judge their trade-in offer. Understand that a vehicle purchase and trade-in invokes an inherent adversarial prospect with the dealer (they want the highest, you want the lowest), and that's capitalism at its finest (as it should be), but trust me, they're not your friends. Arm yourself with knowledge, and posting to this board is a good start. :)

Thanks for posting this - it's a great topic! Ford has a 3% holdback rate, based on MSRP minus destination. I just priced a 2014 FFHyTi on ford.com for $36,675. Subtract $795 destination = $35,880, x .03 holdback = $1,076. So, if you manage to negotiate invoice pricing on your sale (good luck, and please share the dealer's name if you do), they still get 'at least' $1,076. There are numerous other incentives, too, such as Ford-to-dealer cash, volume incentives, and related. Also know that invoice prices can also be inflated. Holdback is typically released to the dealer quarterly. There's a very good article on Edmunds that explains more details for holdback, including a table for holdback rates for all manufacturers: http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/dealer-holdback/ The FFH competes with Camry but Toyota only has a 2% holdback, and it's figured on base MSRP (before options); unlike Ford which is calculated on total MSRP. Therefore, Toyota dealerships have much less wiggle room, so you clearly have an opportunity for lower pricing on a comparably equipped Ford. Another item to consider is buying a current year model when new year models arrive. Dealerships get another 1-2% holdback for selling prior year inventory on top of the normal holdback. I've leveraged this info in the past by buying a vehicle in Oct/Nov when the newer model year cars are on deck. I wouldn't consider making a purchase on a prior year unless I could get below-invoice pricing. The dealership is extra anxious to rid themselves of prior year cars so that's about the only time (if ever) they'd be willing to dip under invoice. Otherwise, negotiating into holdback territory is verboten. The only real value in educating oneself on holdback rates is simply to know with certainty that if a dealer indicates they're not making any money on a sale (say, when you offer an at-invoice price), they're flat out lying. Dealers and salesman don't make the money they used to because of much transparency provided by the internet and organizations such as Consumer Reports. However, we all must be believers in a free-market capitalist economy and the dealer must make a profit. So the question to the consumer is, how much over invoice are you willing to pay; nevermind the holdback.

Had my PCM installed this a.m. The dearlership said they've had a few requests but I was first in the chute. Thanks to the info in this forum, I ensured I checked for the reset display, etc., and it all looked good t'go. The 32-mile ride home was interesting, watching EV kick in at 70-/80-mph when conditions were right. My mpg for the ride was 43 but that's an improvement over the 36'ish this trip used to net me. This is Southwest Virginia on I-81 with a 70-mph speed limit, full of inclines for hills, and the downgrades aren't all that long. Still, EV was engaged much more than usual for this stretch and caught myself smiling when I glanced at the display. Go Ford! I have a 350-mile trip to DC this weekend so that'll be more revealing. I anticipate much better economy, as the speed limit is 70 almost the entire trip. It was 54-degrees F here this morning, the chilliest yet since I took delivery on 28 May. I noted the longer-than-usual warm-up time before EV would kick in, so I'll pay attention to that with the PCM installed on the next trip.

I have mine scheduled at Shelor for Thurs, 15 Aug. Hopefully they'll know how to do it. :)

Posted 28 July 2013 - 02:13 PM I was hoping Chris would post his impressions, provided he ordered when he said he was. I couldn't hold out anymore so I placed my order with AutoSport today for the 4-pc Super Plush ($179). On receipt (ships ~5-10 days), I'll post some pics. Coupon good for free shipping! I found this (9WZRBR6V) on a regular google search and it saved me $23 shipping. The AutoSport site and order confirmation e-mail says you can use these mats for 180 days and return "no questions asked" if unhappy with the product. That's hard to beat and this vendor obviously stands behind their products, so it's a safe online purchase. They have the feature to send you samples first if you want but I didn't use it. -------------------------------------- Update: I received my order for the AutoSport 54 oz Super Plush on 9 August (12 days). The quality and thickness was evident right out of the box. These make the OEM mats seem like flappy pancakes. If someone's interested in purchasing these, I recommend you sign up for their e-mails first, as you'll receive a 20%-off coupon in short order. I selected ebony but they have 8 other colors. Very happy with the coverage, quality, and plushness of these mats. The only bummer is that it definitely does not cover the area under the gas pedal. Their ebony mats are really black and make the FFH interior carpet seem more like a dark grey. The driver side grommets fit perfectly, snap on with ease. You can see that these mats are specially fit for the Fusion. I'm including pics of OEM vs AutoSport installed but if this doesn't work, I have them in a gallery: http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/gallery/image/1170-ffh-floor-mat-thickness-stock-vs-new/