AptosDriver

Well after reading all these replies, which I have to admit I can't entirely follow as my eyes start to glaze over, I'm inclined to think that the Hyundai/Kia solution is too complicated, by half. And in any case, I think that the key wording in the quoted article excerpt is the Hyundai spokesman's own acknowledgment that they were pressed to "come up with our own hybrid system while working around existing patents." As I recall, someone already speculated in a related thread that Hyundai was probably facing patent issues. They probably didn't have any patents that any other hybrid makers wanted to cross license with them (as Ford and Toyota did) and I assume that they wanted to avoid paying licensing fees. If that's what was really driving their hybrid development, then it's possible that corporate financial considerations triumphed over function. The answer to that question will have to wait until the Hyundai Sonata/Kia Optima hybrid rubber meets the road. :shift:

Found this Cnet review of the Hyundai Sonata hybrid, which shares its powertrain with the Kia hybrid. In a nutshell, the review claims the Hyundai/Kia hybrids' "parallel" system provides superior highway MPG because it enables the cars to run at up to 75 mph on their electric motors. The engineering sounds impressive to me, but what do I know? I'd like to hear, objectively, from folks who do know. Hyundai/Kia are touting their lithium-polymer battery technology and I've seen the critiques of those batteries here. (And also the explanation of the planetary gear at the heart of the FFH's CVT.) But apparently the key to the better highway MPG, per Hyundai/Kia is ultimately the way the electric motor is connected to the wheels: The challenge, says Mark Guin, Hyundai senior development engineer at the Hyundai-Kia America Technical Center in Chino, Calif., was to "come up with our own hybrid system while working around existing patents." Says Guin: "We believe that the solution we came up with is elegantly simple." Hyundai's solution replaces a typical hybrid's transmission-motor assembly with a standard automatic transaxle modified to work with what Hyundai calls a transmission-mounted electrical device. The TMED includes two main parts: a powerful electric drive motor and a solenoid-activated clutch pack. These parts fit in about the same space as a traditional torque converter. "The fine control we can exert over the wet clutch pack makes it possible for us to use a conventional automatic transmission without a torque converter," a notorious energy drain, Guin says. "The TMED enables our 40 mpg highway mileage and high-speed EV operation. Because the torque from the motor runs through all of the transmission's six gears, we can keep the motor running at its optimal rpm," Guin says. Electric motors are more efficient running at lower speeds. The clutching system enables the gearbox to receive power from the 30-kilowatt (40.8-hp) electric motor, the 166-hp 2.4-liter Atkinson cycle four-cylinder gasoline engine, or both. So is this solution "elegantly simple," as the man says, or inelegantly complex? This layman's inquiring mind would like to know more.

I think you should inflate 'em with nitrous oxide. Then every trip you take will be a laugh. Yeah, and I remember the winters of '49-'63, up until I skipped town to go to college ... in Iowa. It got pretty cold and snowy there too, but at least the snow didn't turn to dirty gray mush decorated with dog manure. I flew back to Chicago in winter '67 for a grad-school interview. I remember that the snow accumulation was so great then that the sidewalks had turned to canyons between the snow berms piled up in front yards and the parkways. Winter in the city was for the most part no fun. It wasn't until I started skiing in my late twenties that I learned to enjoy it.

Llolder: Thanks for all that good information! And especially for the link to the Toyota CVT planetary gear design. :beerchug:

The new lithium batteries in the Sonata and Kia hybrid sedans should not be confused with lithium-ion batteries. They're lithium-polymer batteries and as I've learned from this article, there's a difference: The lithium polymer battery The Hyundai Hybrid Blue Drive is the only system in the market that uses lithium polymer battery technology, which is far more advanced than the competition's nickel-metal hydride and lithium-ion applications. What's unique and high-tech about lithium polymer is how it improved on the lithium-ion technology, which is used in laptops and cell phones. Hyundai upgraded this technology by adding robustness, power-density and package flexibility .... Lithium Polymer vs. Nickel-Metal Hydride Hyundai Sonata's lithium polymer battery improves the nickel-metal batteries. Although both batteries pack the same amount of power, the lithium polymer comes with 20-30 percent less weight, 40 percent less volume, and 10 per-cent greater efficiency, as well as 1,7 times more energy density. This allowed Hyundai designers and engineers to devote less space and weight originally for the battery pack. The lithium polymer can better resist temperature change and can hold its charge 1.25 times longer. Lithium Polymer vs. Lithium-ion The traditional lithium-ion battery is reliable and easy to handle. However, they lack packaging efficiency and their small parts are complicated to manufacture. Lithium polymer batteries, on the other hand, have higher energy density yet lower manufacturing costs. It can better withstand physical damage and begins to discharge only after a considerable number of charge-discharge cycles. Lithium polymer technology definitely has advantages in thermal robustness and safety. The major advantage of lithium polymer is the efficient packaging of its anode, cathode, electrolyte, and encasement material. Another positive difference is that lithium polymer uses a polymer gel as the electrolyte, rather than the traditional liquid electrolyte. This allows the use of a thinner and lighter encasement or pouch with aluminum walls. New Hyundai technology The lithium polymer battery is a product of hundreds of hours of testing and research by Hyundai and its battery supplier, LG Chem. This new technology has been proven to have better thermal and mechanical stability than other existing systems for better and safer driving. It is also much cooler than the nickel-metal hydride and lithium-ion batteries, which means it can guarantee maintenance-free battery operation for a good 10 years or 150,000 miles in any weather conditions. Then there's this from Popular Mechanics: Compared to nickel-metal-hydride batteries of the same output, such as those used in the hybrid versions of the Toyota Camry and the Ford Fusion, the lithium-polymer batteries are 35 percent lighter and 40 percent smaller. Therefore, they can more easily be packaged without adding weight and taking up cargo space. They also have a lower self-discharge rate, which improves on the tendency to lose electricity when the vehicle is parked. Compared to lithium-ion batteries, such as those used in electronic appliances, lithium-polymer batteries offer a similar energy density but with lower heat generation, which improves cycle life. ...The difference between lithium-ion and lithium-polymer is in the chemistry and packaging. Engineers seeking to take advantage of lithium-ion's superior power density have battled its tendency to overheat and degrade as charge cycles accumulate. In other words, lithium-polymer batteries are longer-lasting and much less prone to catch fire than lithium-ion batteries. The Kia Optima hybrid uses the same battery technology and drive train as the Hyundai Sonata hybrid discussed here. GM uses lithium-ion batteries in its Chevy Volt. It will be interesting to see how those work out.

While out for a pleasant walk today (the thermometer is in the 70s here), I saw a small Ford truck and started wondering why Ford and Toyota aren't offering hybrid pickup trucks.

I think refining capacity may have more to do with U.S. price trends than actual oil supply at this point. That said, oil is a finite resource and most of the "low-hanging fruit" has already been picked. That's what's driven the drilling rigs into deeper Gulf waters. It was actually the disastrous BP blow-out last year that started me thinking that we really should get a hybrid. Sure, I want a car that's more economical to drive, but I'd also like to be more a part of the solution than the problem. On the other hand, I'm not interested in making a "statement." No Prius for me. As for gas prices driving demand for more fuel-efficient vehicles, go to Europe and see what most people there drive -- small cars and motorcycles. Even my RAV4 would look like a huge car in most major European cities. Gas costs way more over there than it does here. The first time I ever saw a Smart Car was in Paris, and they were everywhere. Now I'm seeing some here on the freeway, where I don't think they're very smart.

According to this article on CVT transmissions that I found online, they don't have gear teeth.

It's amazing to me how few mid-size hybrid cars are being sold nationwide, per this article. While Toyota sold more than 10,000 Priuses in January, they sold only 860 TCH's nationwide. Ford actually sold more FFHs: 969. That's not a lot of mid-size sedans for either company. The which-came-first, chicken-or-egg question is whether so few are being sold because neither company is committed to producing more of them, or because demand itself is limited. Either way, TCH and FFH owners could consider themselves part of an "elite" group.

I think I need someone to educate me on this transmission business. I did have the idea that continuously variable transmissions are more efficient that conventional transmissions. On the other hand, I have a conventional automatic transmission in my 6-cylinder RAV4, and it's so smooth I don't even know where the shift points are.What's the advantage of mating a six-speed transmission to a hybrid drivetrain?

So maybe you're older and wiser now? :headspin:

Very nice, Sam. I'm not a member of the choir yet. I'm still deciding whether to join it, even though I can't carry a tune to save my life. Do you review cars for a living? And is that fully loaded FFH yours or a loaner from Ford? Steve

They were using Escape hybrid taxis in San Francisco too. They recently retired some with 300,000 miles on them. Their batteries were evidently "Energizer bunnies." They kept going, and going and going. I'm really glad to know you're enjoying it! And the prices of any leftover, new NiMH FFHs will plummet. But the lithium-ion FFH would have a bigger trunk. My understanding is that Ford developed its own hybrid drivetrain, but that there were enough similarities to Toyota's hybrid technology that they were worried about patent-infringement lawsuits. So Ford approached Toyota about it and they did a deal wherein Toyota cross-licensed its technology to Ford in exchange for Ford cross-licensing its diesel technology to Toyota, and no money changed hands. Maybe there is no advantage other than more trunk space, which is especially helpful if you're a mobster.

You're right of course. Given my reluctance to be an early adopter, it wouldn't be so smart of me to choose a lithium-ion hybrid over an NiMH hybrid at this point. One point seemingly in favor of the lithium-ion battery is that it's not only lighter; it's smaller. So you get more trunk space. Anyway, I'm very interested in seeing and driving the new Kia Optima hybrid. It's supposed to develop 206 hp combined with the ICE and the electric motor.