Oil change intervals - endless topic

[hybridbear]

I think what he meant was that with the new filter, take it out of the box, write down the current mileage of your car and the date with a sharpie, remove old one, install new (marked) one.

 

But correct me if I'm wrong.

That's what I'm hearing too but I still don't see how that proves anything for warranty. The argument the dealer said Ford will make is that if you have your oil changed by the dealer or any certified mechanic then your receipt proves that they changed the oil. And since they're certified the piece of paper holds weight. If you save receipts of buying oil and filters and document yourself the dates and mileage Ford will claim that since you're not a certified mechanic that they don't trust your word and your documents. The question is: how can you change oil yourself but create irrefutable evidence for a warranty claim that you did the work? I don't understand how writing the mileage and date on the filter before putting it on the car does that

Edited May 16, 2013 by hybridbear

[alpha754293]

That's what I'm hearing too but I still don't see how that proves anything for warranty. The argument the dealer said Ford will make is that if you have your oil changed by the dealer or any certified mechanic then your receipt proves that they changed the oil. And since they're certified the piece of paper holds weight. If you save receipts of buying oil and filters and document yourself the dates and mileage Ford will claim that since you're not a certified mechanic that they don't trust your word and your documents. The question is: how can you change oil yourself but create irrefutable evidence for a warranty claim that you did the work? I don't understand how writing the mileage and date on the filter before putting it on the car does that

 

In theory, the dealer could also do the same thing - say that they changed the oil, charge you for it, but not really do anything. Worst case, they could just top it off for you and call it good.

 

If you want proof proof, you'd probably have to run a gas chromatography/mass spectroscopy (GC/MS) on the old, dirty oil. In theory, you might be able to figure out how much contaminant is produced and the rate that it would enter the lubricating oil and then by estimating the total amount, you might be able to estimate the "age" of it. It's similiar to radiocarbon dating, but different at the same time. If you know what I mean.

 

The only thing that would make it tough is to model the actual contamination rate (which is dependent on several thousand variables). Not impossible, but it just takes a lot more than $60 worth of time and resources (computers, computing time, engineering/scientist time, lab time, lab equipment, etc...)

[hybridbear]

In theory, the dealer could also do the same thing - say that they changed the oil, charge you for it, but not really do anything. Worst case, they could just top it off for you and call it good

You're exactly right and this is why I prefer to change oil myself. The thing is that Ford trusts the piece of paper from a dealer or another certified mechanic and does NOT trust the piece of paper written by the car owner

[murphy]

How about setting up a video camera and recording the oil being changed and including a shot of the odometer.

[lolder]

If you change the oil yourself and mark it in the maintenance log, Ford is not going to be able to deny you warranty service unless you stripped the threads on the drain plug and all the oil ran out. Besides, oil problems are rare. On another forum we had a poster who was charged $400 for a routine 60,000 mile inspection on a Gen 1 FFH that needed nothing. Free oil changes from a dealer are not free ! They get reimbursed for warranty work which they have to document. The free oil changes are bait.

Edited May 16, 2013 by lolder

[acdii]

Even better, buy the filter from the dealer, and mark the date on the filter right there to match the date on their receipt. Lets see them try to deny it then! I also took a picture of the oil as it went in as further proof.

 

[fusionTX]

Did we get a maintenance log with the car? I see the maintenance schedule on my online manual, but I like having a log with what to do at every milestone.

[acdii]

I remember seeing one somewhere in one of the books, but I did notice that there are fewer books these days.

[Sleddog]

No where in the Ford warranty documents does it say you can not change your own oil. No where does it say that Ford must, or a certified shop must.

 

From the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act

 

No warrantor may condition the continued validity of a warranty on the use of only authorized repair service and/or authorized replacement parts for non-warranty service and maintenance. For example, provisions such as, "This warranty is void if service is performed by anyone other than an authorized 'ABC' dealer and all replacement parts must be genuine 'ABC' parts," and the like, are prohibited where the service or parts are not covered by the warranty. These provisions violate the Act in two ways. First, they violate the section 102© ban against tying arrangements. Second, such provisions are deceptive under section 110 of the Act, because a warrantor cannot, as a matter of law, avoid liability under a written warranty where a defect is unrelated to the use by a consumer of "unauthorized" articles or service. This does not preclude a warrantor from expressly excluding liability for defects or damage caused by such "unauthorized" articles or service; nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so caused.

Under the Magnuson-Moss Act, a dealer must prove, not just vocalize, that aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before it can deny warranty coverage. If the dealer cannot prove such a claim — or it proffers a questionable explanation — it is your legal right to demand compliance with the warranty. The Federal Trade Commission administers the Magnuson-Moss Act and monitors compliance with warranty law.

 

So what does it mean. It means you can change your own oil. And the dealer must PROVE, NOT SAY, that your warranty is void because you changed the oil.

 

Any sales guy that says so, is full of crap! I had a sales guy tell me when I bought a new dryer I had to purchase a new electrical cord because if I used the old one, it would void my warranty. I told him to show that to me in the warranty paperwork. He couldn't. Most sales people are the same, they want assume you are a mushroom. They want to keep you the dark and feed you crap!

 

If they say stuff like that, tell them to show it to you in writing. It's a scare tactic to get you in the service center. An oil analysis would tell what oil you used and how old (oil life remaining) it is. AND they would have to prove your oil change caused the issue.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Sleddog

[acdii]

Yep, and marking the miles and date makes it one step more difficult to argue the point.

[dalesky]

I was told the crankcase is filled with full synthetic oil. No way it needs replacing before 10M miles. I go 7500 in my GT Mustang, and I drive that hard. It still looks clean when I change it.

[acdii]

10 million? thats some oil!

[keybman]

Roman Numeral

[elle]

Mine has a sticker from the dealer that says 10K, so I'm going with that, especially after hearing everything in here.

[fusionTX]

The bad thing about the 10K is tire rotation. Isn't that a little long to wait to rotate your tires?

[neod192]

The bad thing about the 10K is tire rotation. Isn't that a little long to wait to rotate your tires?

I get my tire rotations done for free at Discount tire every 6-8k miles. I've always bought my tires there so rotations are free. I hope they extend that service to the new car too ... they know I'll buy my next set from them :)

Edited May 17, 2013 by neod192

[elle]

My tires are rotating constantly as I drive. Aren't yours? Just kidding and playing dumb. Yes it could be a little long, twice as long as I used to go on the Prius but I am not sure I want to take it in just for that in the meantime.

Edited May 17, 2013 by elle

[corncobs]

My tires are rotating constantly as I drive. Aren't yours? Just kidding and playing dumb. Yes it could be a little long, twice as long as I used to go on the Prius but I am not sure I want to take it in just for that in the meantime.

That's exactly what I'm always thinking LOL

[GrySql]

I go 7500 in my GT Mustang, and I drive that hard. It still looks clean when I change it.

Same here, my GT has clean oil, still almost full between changes of 5w-20w Mobil 1.

But, I changed it & filter early the first time and for the next several times, making sure the oil was clear.

It has 91k miles and the oil looks new when I change it.

 

For this FFH, I first changed the oil at 4k miles, actual mileage on the ICE was 2700 - the difference is that with all the Regen EV miles the ICE doesn't run that much compared to a normal ICE vehicle.

What bothers me is that many times the ICE is cold (or at the lower thermostat setting) when it starts and that is a sure-fire condition for carbon and sludge build up.

The Owner's Manual says to change oil at 10k miles on the odometer, meaning that the ICE is probably only running about 7500 real miles if you're trying to be a good hybrid driver.

Look at your tailpipe, I'll bet it shows a black residue from all the cold starts.

Full synthetic is good for 7500 or better, I'll change it at that mileage or so on the odometer, meaning the ICE has about 5000+ miles of operation.

Ford has their reasons, I have mine, however outmoded.

 

I have to get my tires rotated, I have 7400 miles now and been lazy.

Edited May 17, 2013 by GrySql

[hybridbear]

If you change the oil yourself and mark it in the maintenance log, Ford is not going to be able to deny you warranty service unless you stripped the threads on the drain plug and all the oil ran out. Besides, oil problems are rare. On another forum we had a poster who was charged $400 for a routine 60,000 mile inspection on a Gen 1 FFH that needed nothing. Free oil changes from a dealer are not free ! They get reimbursed for warranty work which they have to document. The free oil changes are bait.

The issue is trust. And with my background in insurance I totally understand because a warranty is basically an insurance policy.

 

Even better, buy the filter from the dealer, and mark the date on the filter right there to match the date on their receipt. Lets see them try to deny it then! I also took a picture of the oil as it went in as further proof.

 

This seems like a lot of hassle in case of an issue to have to take pictures and store them and I could see Ford still finding a way to deny the warranty claim.

 

No where in the Ford warranty documents does it say you can not change your own oil. No where does it say that Ford must, or a certified shop must.

 

From the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act

 

No warrantor may condition the continued validity of a warranty on the use of only authorized repair service and/or authorized replacement parts for non-warranty service and maintenance. For example, provisions such as, "This warranty is void if service is performed by anyone other than an authorized 'ABC' dealer and all replacement parts must be genuine 'ABC' parts," and the like, are prohibited where the service or parts are not covered by the warranty. These provisions violate the Act in two ways. First, they violate the section 102© ban against tying arrangements. Second, such provisions are deceptive under section 110 of the Act, because a warrantor cannot, as a matter of law, avoid liability under a written warranty where a defect is unrelated to the use by a consumer of "unauthorized" articles or service. This does not preclude a warrantor from expressly excluding liability for defects or damage caused by such "unauthorized" articles or service; nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so caused.

Under the Magnuson-Moss Act, a dealer must prove, not just vocalize, that aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before it can deny warranty coverage. If the dealer cannot prove such a claim — or it proffers a questionable explanation — it is your legal right to demand compliance with the warranty. The Federal Trade Commission administers the Magnuson-Moss Act and monitors compliance with warranty law.

 

So what does it mean. It means you can change your own oil. And the dealer must PROVE, NOT SAY, that your warranty is void because you changed the oil.

 

Any sales guy that says so, is full of crap! I had a sales guy tell me when I bought a new dryer I had to purchase a new electrical cord because if I used the old one, it would void my warranty. I told him to show that to me in the warranty paperwork. He couldn't. Most sales people are the same, they want assume you are a mushroom. They want to keep you the dark and feed you crap!

 

If they say stuff like that, tell them to show it to you in writing. It's a scare tactic to get you in the service center. An oil analysis would tell what oil you used and how old (oil life remaining) it is. AND they would have to prove your oil change caused the issue.

Again, this is not the issue. The issue isn't that you will void your warranty if you change your own oil, the issue is the proof. If you have your oil changed by a certified mechanic or Ford dealer the receipt they give you is considered trustworthy by Ford. If you have an engine issue the first thing they are going to want is proof that you did your maintenance properly. From an insurance perspective I agree that they could deny a claim if you changed your own oil saying that you can't prove that you actually did it and that you did it correctly. Having documentation from a mechanic is considered to be proof that your oil was changed and that it was done correctly. Receipts where you bought oil and an oil filter does not prove that you put the oil in the car. A picture like acdii mentions also does not prove that the oil went in the car because you could have put an empty bottle on there to take the picture without actually putting oil in the car. Even if they do accept the pictures as proof that you changed it, they could still argue that you didn't do it correctly and thus that caused the issue. I have already stated that if the cost for these required inspections in order to keep the free oil changes is greater than $60 then I will forget the remaining free oil changes because $60 is what I would spend on oil and a filter to do it myself. However, for the warranty term I would be inclined to change the oil myself after 5000 miles and then the next time find a $20 coupon for some mechanic and have them change it. Then I would be satisfying the guideline from Ford to change oil every 10,000 miles. I would actually be changing it every 5000 miles, but if there's ever an issue I would only tell Ford about the changes done by a mechanic every 10,000 miles.

 

For this FFH, I first changed the oil at 4k miles, actual mileage on the ICE was 2700 - the difference is that with all the Regen EV miles the ICE doesn't run that much compared to a normal ICE vehicle.

What bothers me is that many times the ICE is cold (or at the lower thermostat setting) when it starts and that is a sure-fire condition for carbon and sludge build up.

The Owner's Manual says to change oil at 10k miles on the odometer, meaning that the ICE is probably only running about 7500 real miles if you're trying to be a good hybrid driver.

Look at your tailpipe, I'll bet it shows a black residue from all the cold starts.

Full synthetic is good for 7500 or better, I'll change it at that mileage or so on the odometer, meaning the ICE has about 5000+ miles of operation.

Ford has their reasons, I have mine, however outmoded.

 

I have to get my tires rotated, I have 7400 miles now and been lazy.

I agree and that is why I will never wait 10,000 miles to change oil. My Saab 9-3 had a sludge build up problem from the previous owner following Saab's direction to go 10,000 miles between oil changes. GM did this specifying full synthetic to try to make the Saabs seem lower maintenance, the problem was that most owners used regular oil and went 10,000+ miles between oil changes which led to sludge. I'd rather spend a little bit more often to change my oil every 5000 miles rather than have an issue later on.

 

10k on the odometer and 7.5k on the ICE would be a lot of highway driving. We got about 40% EV miles in the winter and are seeing 60-70% EV miles now that the weather is warm. That would mean that 5k on the odometer for me is less than 3k on the ICE. This is the interval I've chosen for now to change oil because of the cold starts and the effect that had on my Saab. It was fine for years but then I moved close to work where I was only driving 1.3 miles each way and the ICE never warmed up in the winter and after a few months of that, even with changing oil every 3k miles, I got enough sludge buildup that the oil pick up tube got blocked. Fortunately since I knew to watch for symptoms of this I did not do any damage to the engine but it was still a huge pain.

Edited May 17, 2013 by hybridbear

[tr7driver]

_{Regular oil changes are the key to long life. It burns me that the dealer puts the next change at 3,500 miles on the sticker. I’ll probably change it at around 5,000, and rotate the expensive tires at the same time.}

_{My wife drives about 40K miles a year due to her work. Depreciation is so high on a new car, I usually try to buy her a low mileage used car that I can verify the maintenance on for her to drive for a couple of years. Cars are very well made these days and are quite reliable. Comfort and safety are also key issues for someone who spends so much time in a car. Her last 2 cars (Avalons) went over 200K before we took them out of daily service and my kids are still driving them. I use “Dino” Quaker State. I bought her a fully loaded 2010 Merc Milan Premier Hy with 6K on it in March 2012. It had an ESP plan come with it. So far it has been bulletproof with a lifetime MPG at 43.8 when I checked last night. I fully expect it to go 200K and will probably keep it for a beater car once she is ready for a replacement.}

[acdii]

Thats a rare car indeed, not many were made before Mercury was phased out.

[dalesky]

10 million? thats some oil!

Yep, I like to drive!

[Sleddog]

Again, this is not the issue. The issue isn't that you will void your warranty if you change your own oil, the issue is the proof. If you have your oil changed by a certified mechanic or Ford dealer the receipt they give you is considered trustworthy by Ford. If you have an engine issue the first thing they are going to want is proof that you did your maintenance properly. From an insurance perspective I agree that they could deny a claim if you changed your own oil saying that you can't prove that you actually did it and that you did it correctly. Having documentation from a mechanic is considered to be proof that your oil was changed and that it was done correctly. Receipts where you bought oil and an oil filter does not prove that you put the oil in the car. A picture like acdii mentions also does not prove that the oil went in the car because you could have put an empty bottle on there to take the picture without actually putting oil in the car. Even if they do accept the pictures as proof that you changed it, they could still argue that you didn't do it correctly and thus that caused the issue. I have already stated that if the cost for these required inspections in order to keep the free oil changes is greater than $60 then I will forget the remaining free oil changes because $60 is what I would spend on oil and a filter to do it myself. However, for the warranty term I would be inclined to change the oil myself after 5000 miles and then the next time find a $20 coupon for some mechanic and have them change it. Then I would be satisfying the guideline from Ford to change oil every 10,000 miles. I would actually be changing it every 5000 miles, but if there's ever an issue I would only tell Ford about the changes done by a mechanic every 10,000 miles.

 

I think you missed it. FORD, not you, has the burden of PROOF your changing the oil caused the failure. They can say whatever they want. They have to put there proof in writing. They can not reject a warranty claim because they say it did. As I said, an oil analysis will tell the type of oil and it's age. If it goes to the dealer 4 quarts low and has damage, it won't make a difference who changed the oil. The owner did not do the required oil level checks. If the oil filter failed? So what, it's a ford part. Could happen at the dealer, a certified non ford shop, or to you in the driveway.

 

Do what you want. I'm getting lazy, and the idea of taking the aerodynamic panel off will have me letting the dealer do it. But, they screw up also. So what would stop them from saying, "We changed the oil. You did not do the owner maintenance checks and that's why the motor failed", and voiding your warranty. No way for you to prove you did them. So you may want to take you car in every week and pay for the maintenance checks. That way you'll be covered. :)

 

And that's why this is called an endless topic. ;) :shift: :headspin:

Edited May 17, 2013 by Sleddog

[GrySql]

Our FFH's specify use of 5W-20 oil and your picture shows 5W-30 containers. :headscratch:

 

I hope you don't use that photo an an example of your doing it correctly when applying for warranty work on these cars.

Maybe that was just an 'example' photo from another vehicle, eh?

 

 

 

Even better, buy the filter from the dealer, and mark the date on the filter right there to match the date on their receipt. Lets see them try to deny it then! I also took a picture of the oil as it went in as further proof.