Regen Braking Issue When Turning

[acdii]

Definitely an OH S**T moment. Well did not fix the turning issue, but the car is running better now, in fact the eCVT is quieter. :shrug: Also found out the Chemical Guys stuff does not last long. Second washing since the last detail and its all gone, no more beading and the finish is dull, so back to Zaino for me.

[FordService]

 

That seems like a wise course of action to me. Give your dealership a chance to make you happy before you unleash Megan's wrath on them.

No wrath here! The CSM's work hand in hand with the dealer. :)

 

I agree to disagree...

Meagan gives them cookies, nice works.

You're making payments on a car you don't trust.

You probably need to get a CSM involved to make a higher level decision, this doesn't seem to be going anywhere at the Dealer level.

I vote for having Meagan connect you with your area CSM, they can get Ford Engineers in there to help diagnose the issue.

The two times I used a CSM things got done.

Thanks for the shout-out! Glad to be of service.

 

Speaking of cookies...

 

The dealer isnt dismissing it, they just didn't fully understand the complaint until now. The SM now understands after we did a drive and I pointed it out. Normally what he felt would have been ignored, but when it is incremental, meaning the faster the turn, the more noticeable it is, then its a different story. They are getting a high level tech in, but it wont be for a few weeks.

 

In the meantime I do have the car back, but the legal standpoint still remains, and I am not sure what to do about it.

 

The lowdown on the other SM not getting involved, turns out he was promoted and his last day was Tuesday. He has been out the rest of the week, so was not available to discuss. The other SM did talk to him this morning and is now fully aware of what the complaint is.

My offer still stands. :)

 

Meagan

[acdii]

Hoping I wont need it Meagan, but will use it if I need it. I did a reboot of the car, and while the brakes are now working like they should in a straight line braking(YEAH), there is still the issue while turning, which means to me it is not a programming issue but more likely a sensor being hinky, and since it is so brief, probably not anything that would actually throw a code. How they will ever find the problem I dont know, but it needs to be fixed. Now that the straight line braking is working as it should the turning speeds are much lower so less of an issue. My biggest concern was that the erratic slowing from 60 MPH while slowing to turn meant that I never knew if I would be turning at 25 MPH or 40 MPH. Keeping fingers crossed that the straight line braking continues to work as well as it does now. Today the car drove better than when I first got it, smooth, quiet, 48 MPG, was rather enjoyable, I had the radio off, and just kicked back and cruised.

[FordService]

Hoping I wont need it Meagan, but will use it if I need it...

You know how to find me if you do. :)

 

Meagan

[acdii]

I give up. The good braking lasted all but one day and now its back to doing what it has been. I am finding that long trips in the car are becoming very uncomfortable now for me, my left leg and hip are screaming in pain. Grrrrr. I sure hope that tech shows up soon.

[acdii]

PM sent. Came too close for comfort to another car during a turn, pretty sure the other driver may have had skid marks, and not on the road.

[FordService]

PM sent. Came too close for comfort to another car during a turn, pretty sure the other driver may have had skid marks, and not on the road.

Got it! Also, ew. :lol:

 

Meagan

[acdii]

Thanks. The SM who I used to work with would have been more attentive to the issue, but he got promoted and the other guy I felt is giving me the brush off, acting like I dont know how the system works(until he learned how it works, then his attitude changed).

[FordService]

Thanks. The SM who I used to work with would have been more attentive to the issue, but he got promoted and the other guy I felt is giving me the brush off, acting like I dont know how the system works(until he learned how it works, then his attitude changed).

How's everything been?

 

Meagan

[acdii]

well, not as well as I had hoped for. Apparently a braking issue is not high enough on the list to have a specialist come out to work on it, only thing that was suggested is to get a second opinion, so I have an appointment setup at Alphorn for Thursday. Well if it turns out that they come to the same conclusion, and I am stuck with a car with faulty brakes, its going away and I will just move on to something else. Frankly between the dealer screwing me on other things, and this I am fed up with Ford right now. Ford gets one last chance on this, then if not resolved, no more ford for me.

[lolder]

Well it's sad that I think you also had trouble with the rich mixture one. Five years ago on another forum a poster ( Oman ? ) said the downfall of these sophisticated cars could be the inability of the dealers to fix them.

[acdii]

Yeah, that is exactly the issue here. I was told that they would get a high level tech, hybrid specialist out to look at it, and was told today Ford doesn't have such a person. That is so reassuring, NOT. There is a software glitch in the car, somewhere. I discovered today that when the regen braking is lax, that if I shut the car off and restart it, the braking returned to normal. That explains why it is so hit and miss, when they work right, they usually work that way until I turn it off. The surge while turning has to be some sensor that is cutting out the regen briefly. Without a code though, these guys are helpless.

 

The car needs a data logger to record everything, thats the only way they are going to find this problem, hopefully before something bad happens.

 

I fear though it will follow the same path as the last one, a clear in your face issue, but since no codes, no problem found.

[lolder]

With the 2010-12, there was more than one place to look for DTCs and many dealers didn't know that. Might that also be the problem with the 2013+ s?

 

I really think if they could find it it would be easily fixed under warranty. It sounds like a wheel speed sensor or wiring or software or maybe a computer. You know all the Ford hybrids are usually silky smooth in braking except for damp rotors below 5 mph the first stop of the day.

Edited May 5, 2015 by lolder

[md13ffhguy]

Well it's sad that I think you also had trouble with the rich mixture one. Five years ago on another forum a poster ( Oman ? ) said the downfall of these sophisticated cars could be the inability of the dealers to fix them.

It's like when you go into (name any national chain store) and the sales person tells you about the products by reading the product label or a sign on the shelf. Or the appliance repairman who can swap the parts out that's he's been sent to do, but can't diagnose anything.

[murphy]

Yeah, that is exactly the issue here. I was told that they would get a high level tech, hybrid specialist out to look at it, and was told today Ford doesn't have such a person. That is so reassuring, NOT. There is a software glitch in the car, somewhere. I discovered today that when the regen braking is lax, that if I shut the car off and restart it, the braking returned to normal. That explains why it is so hit and miss, when they work right, they usually work that way until I turn it off. The surge while turning has to be some sensor that is cutting out the regen briefly. Without a code though, these guys are helpless.

 

The car needs a data logger to record everything, thats the only way they are going to find this problem, hopefully before something bad happens.

 

I fear though it will follow the same path as the last one, a clear in your face issue, but since no codes, no problem found.

Have you reported the problem to the NHTSA? They know how to get Ford's attention when safety is involved.

[FordService]

well, not as well as I had hoped for. Apparently a braking issue is not high enough on the list to have a specialist come out to work on it, only thing that was suggested is to get a second opinion, so I have an appointment setup at Alphorn for Thursday. Well if it turns out that they come to the same conclusion, and I am stuck with a car with faulty brakes, its going away and I will just move on to something else. Frankly between the dealer screwing me on other things, and this I am fed up with Ford right now. Ford gets one last chance on this, then if not resolved, no more ford for me.

I've updated your case notes, please keep me in the loop on this. I see your CSM's given you her contact info to use after her appointment.

 

Meagan

[airbusguy]

Just a WAG but have you disabled the stability control system to see if that has an effect on the symptoms?

[billford]

If it hasn't been done, you can try and insist that the dealer tech contact the Ford Tech Hotline. Its an online process. Different levels of engineers get involved and they offer suggestions or fixes for difficult problems that the service manuals do not address.You can also ask to see the hotline results.

 

In some cases an area rep will be dispatched to the dealer.

[acdii]

It's like when you go into (name any national chain store) and the sales person tells you about the products by reading the product label or a sign on the shelf. Or the appliance repairman who can swap the parts out that's he's been sent to do, but can't diagnose anything.

Yep Been there, STILL doing that. Have an LG refrigerator that has been out of service going on 6 weeks now. Phone jockey parts swapper has been out 3 times, threw a new compressor in on the second visit, which did not fix it, was out a third time, burned up 4 hours of my wife's time she will not get paid for, and still not fixed, throwing more parts at it, we think, they aren't calling us back.

 

Have you reported the problem to the NHTSA? They know how to get Ford's attention when safety is involved.

Yes I did. However, those of us who are very adept at brake scores would be the only ones who would notice the problems, the average driver would most likely not notice the difference in braking, though the surge while turning they might notice if they go fast enough through a turn.

 

Just a WAG but have you disabled the stability control system to see if that has an effect on the symptoms?

Yep, turned everything I could off.

 

 

Heres the thing, no codes, not even with their fancy computer hooked up, so Ford hotline wont do anything for them. Grysql had a thought that it might be the RCM, since there is a recall on it, and does tie into these systems, so I talked to the tech, who checked and unless it throws a code, they wont replace it.

 

Bottom line I am fed up with these cars being so damned complex that you need an electrical engineer with a boatload of tools and stuff to diagnose, and that the average mechanic does not have access to, that I gave up. This plus due to an arthritic condition that makes it very painful to be in the car for anything more than 30 minutes I decided to trade it in on something I can drive long periods without having extreme pain. I'm also tired of the hybrid game, been doing it for 8 years now, which was OK when I had a lot of city driving, but now my daily drive is 90% highway, which defeats the purpose of the Hybrid. I tried to get a Flex to replace it, but couldn't find one I could afford, but ran across a very sweet deal on a truck, so after tomorrow the Fusion will be gone.

 

I wanted to keep the Fusion, let my wife drive it, but financially I just could not swing it, so it had to be the sacrifice. Taking it down to two vehicles, which should make it easier in the long run, one less car to plate and insure, and we need a truck for projects and horses, that and I have not found a car I can drive for any length of time except a Taurus, and since one of those gets about the same MPG as the truck, made the decision even easier.

 

If it weren't for the fact I just cant sit in the car for very long I would just keep after Ford to get the car fixed, but I found that the pain after getting home was affecting more than just me, as I was crabby and little things were setting me off. I love the Fusion, probably one of the best cars ford has ever made, and it pains me to get rid of it, but it pained me more physically to drive it. It got to the point that I don't want to drive it anymore. In fact I have been home 3 hours and my left leg is still throbbing from the hip down.

 

Meagan, thanks for the assist on this, it was worth a shot at least.

[Sleddog]

Well over the past couple days, in warm weather, dry roads, I can confirm there is definitely an issue with the regen brakes. My wife felt it in the passenger seat and then it dawned on her that she has felt it do that to her too, but dismissed it as tire slippage. Pretty sure it is tied into the steering position sensor. Have an appointment on Friday to have it checked. The TCH did this to us all the time when coming to a stop, which was one of the driving forces to getting rid of it, that and the poor material quality, but I am not getting rid of this car at all, I know this one can be repaired.

 

After reading this I paid a little more attention to braking while turning. I can reproduce it, but only at speeds of less then 10 mph in a turn with light pressure on the brake petal in regen mode when mechanical brakes are not active. In turn right or left turn at a speed higher then that, I'm not feeling it. This could be because of my driving technique, or lack there of. When it does happen it feels more like acceleration then the brakes being released. In front wheel drive non-hybrid cars it's easy to feel the same thing when you have the wheels turned and accelerate. This has the same feel, that feeling of more accerelation then the pressure on the go petal. I thinks it's more of a power application because of the wheel position, then a wheel postion sensor issue. The drive system seems to be appling more torque to the inside wheel in the turn over powering the regen braking.

[hybridbear]

Since we picked the Energi up from the dealer on Friday it is doing this. The PCM was reprogrammed per recall 15E03. The RCM was replaced per recall 14S21. The steering gear motor bolts were addressed per recall 15S14. The dealer also replaced the dead 12V battery. Our regen cut out happens when braking while turning left or right. It seems to happen every time if our speed is above a certain threshold. I am trying now to log data to figure out what is going on. I'm really getting fed up with Ford. Maybe we'll get rid of the Energi for a new Volt once they make it to MN. I'm very frustrated with Ford.

[murphy]

When making a right turn the right wheel will be rotating slower than the left wheel. Maybe it is being detected as wheel slip on the left wheel.

 

I only have the RCM update installed. There is a manhole cover very close to an intersection near my house on a road that has a 25 mph speed limit. Every time I get to the manhole cover all braking action stops while the left front wheel is bouncing across the manhole cover. It feels like the car is speeding up but it is actually a lack of deceleration when my foot is on the brake that is confusing my brain.

[hybridbear]

When making a right turn the right wheel will be rotating slower than the left wheel. Maybe it is being detected as wheel slip on the left wheel.

 

I only have the RCM update installed. There is a manhole cover very close to an intersection near my house on a road that has a 25 mph speed limit. Every time I get to the manhole cover all braking action stops while the left front wheel is bouncing across the manhole cover. It feels like the car is speeding up but it is actually a lack of deceleration when my foot is on the brake that is confusing my brain.

It happens turning left & right. We experience the same sensation you describe when braking on bumpy surfaces, particularly in the Focus Electric.

 

Here is a chart of the vehicle speed & traction motor torque when this happens. This happens on smooth surfaces. I maintain steady pedal pressure throughout this whole braking event. You can see the Motor Torque drop off. This is when the surge is felt.

Edited August 24, 2015 by hybridbear

[hybridbear]

Here's a second chart where the issue is even more pronounced.

[md13ffhguy]

There is a manhole cover very close to an intersection near my house on a road that has a 25 mph speed limit. Every time I get to the manhole cover all braking action stops while the left front wheel is bouncing across the manhole cover. It feels like the car is speeding up but it is actually a lack of deceleration when my foot is on the brake that is confusing my brain.

I've had that occur on rare occasions. It's a weird feeling! It's usually over before I can react. Of course, there's nothing you can really do about it anyhow. Fairly harmless in most circumstances, I guess.