Regen Braking Issue When Turning

[acdii]

I have not been driving the FFH for a few weeks, my wife has and she is not as sensitive to it as I am so this is something she has not noticed or she would have mentioned it.

 

Slowing down from 35 or so and making a right hand turn, when on regen, the circling thing going, partway through the turn, the car feels as though it is slipping on ice, the regen stops for a brief moment. If it happened once I would have blamed the road, but it happened every time, and I have done a lot of right hand turns like this today(Stupid address was 475, but neither the website, nor the email had the W in it, so Nav and Google maps took me to the other side of town, grrr). To me it was quite noticeable, and repeatable, but there are very few locations around here where I can replicate the problem. Once I find a few, I will take it back to the dealer and have one of them ride with me to see if they can feel it when it happens so they have something to go by, but since it is out of warranty, I am pretty much in the hole for $200 to get it repaired, since that is the deductible I went with. Which means I will have to wait until I am working again to have it looked at.

[lolder]

sounds like a stability-traction issue. Do you have any ice or slush up around the wheels where it might affect the wheel speed sensors? I would think you would get a warning alert.

[FordService]

I have not been driving the FFH for a few weeks, my wife has and she is not as sensitive to it as I am so this is something she has not noticed or she would have mentioned it.

 

Slowing down from 35 or so and making a right hand turn, when on regen, the circling thing going, partway through the turn, the car feels as though it is slipping on ice, the regen stops for a brief moment. If it happened once I would have blamed the road, but it happened every time, and I have done a lot of right hand turns like this today(Stupid address was 475, but neither the website, nor the email had the W in it, so Nav and Google maps took me to the other side of town, grrr). To me it was quite noticeable, and repeatable, but there are very few locations around here where I can replicate the problem. Once I find a few, I will take it back to the dealer and have one of them ride with me to see if they can feel it when it happens so they have something to go by, but since it is out of warranty, I am pretty much in the hole for $200 to get it repaired, since that is the deductible I went with. Which means I will have to wait until I am working again to have it looked at.

Hi acdii,

 

I'm happy to send this up the chain. You know the drill, PM me your VIN, mileage, best daytime phone, full name, and dealer name/location. :D

 

Meagan

[acdii]

Well over the past couple days, in warm weather, dry roads, I can confirm there is definitely an issue with the regen brakes. My wife felt it in the passenger seat and then it dawned on her that she has felt it do that to her too, but dismissed it as tire slippage. Pretty sure it is tied into the steering position sensor. Have an appointment on Friday to have it checked. The TCH did this to us all the time when coming to a stop, which was one of the driving forces to getting rid of it, that and the poor material quality, but I am not getting rid of this car at all, I know this one can be repaired.

[hybridbear]

Well over the past couple days, in warm weather, dry roads, I can confirm there is definitely an issue with the regen brakes. My wife felt it in the passenger seat and then it dawned on her that she has felt it do that to her too, but dismissed it as tire slippage. Pretty sure it is tied into the steering position sensor. Have an appointment on Friday to have it checked. The TCH did this to us all the time when coming to a stop, which was one of the driving forces to getting rid of it, that and the poor material quality, but I am not getting rid of this car at all, I know this one can be repaired.

I hope the issue is easily reproducible at the dealer so that they can't deny its existence.

[acdii]

Oh yeah, thats why I have not brought it in yet, wanted to make 100% sure it can be felt and how exactly to make it do it. Now I can reproduce it every time I make a turn.

[acdii]

Update on this issue, the regen braking is becoming more of an issue now than before. With my scangauge hooked up and the code provided by HB I can see the amount of amps going into and coming out of the battery and have seen some rather interesting results.

 

When the regen braking acts normal, that is the car slows as you step on the brake, with it slowing more the more you push, the amps are around -45 and dropping down as the car slows until I come to a stop at 100% on the coach.

 

When it is not acting correctly, that is I press on the brake, the car slows a little, regen circle is spinning, and the amps to the HVB are in the mid -50's, near -60, yet the car is not slowing down as it should, and I have to press harder on the brakes to slow it, engaging the pads instead before the car slows. There are times where I nearly miss my turn since the car is not slowing as expected, and at times I have to push really hard and it feels as if there is air in the brakes before the car slows down.

 

I did a panic test the other day, the physical brakes are 100% perfect, the car STOPS!

 

OTOH when the brakes act properly the car slows down as expected, and I get 100% brake score, then there are times where it should have been 100% and its 98%. There are sections I drive on all the time, and know exactly where to apply the brakes for a perfect score and now when I do it, I cannot achieve a perfect score. The problem is repeatable regardless of the SOC of the HVB.

 

So in addition to the brakes blipping during a turn, they are also intermittent while just braking to a stop. I sure hope they can figure out what is causing it, let alone understand the exact issue I am complaining about. The car has been great, and I want to keep it for a long time, but if the regen braking is failing without codes, what happens when it finally does go coding and stops working altogether?

[billford]

Since it does it on a right turn, I get the impression it could be something to do with a weak ABS signal. As you turn right, the right wheel will spin slower than the left. If the slow wheel already has a weak signal, it can confuse the system.

 

Could also be a sensor circuit problem. With the wheel turned, the abs cable will flex and can cause open/short circuits, but this will usually cause the ABS warning light to turn on.

[corncobs]

Since it does it on a right turn, I get the impression it could be something to do with a weak ABS signal. As you turn right, the right wheel will spin slower than the left. If the slow wheel already has a weak signal, it can confuse the system.

 

Could also be a sensor circuit problem. With the wheel turned, the abs cable will flex and can cause open/short circuits, but this will usually cause the ABS warning light to turn on.

I like that thought. If it's a ABS sensor slowly going bad it could explain some of things you are describing.

 

Our previous Explorer was acting up and they made us replace the tires to make sure it's the ABS sensor and then they replaced it problem solved.

[acdii]

Does it in either direction. I turned off traction control, so it isn't that. If it were a sensor, wouldn't it have thrown a code by now?

[FordService]

Update on this issue, the regen braking is becoming more of an issue now than before. With my scangauge hooked up and the code provided by HB I can see the amount of amps going into and coming out of the battery and have seen some rather interesting results.

 

When the regen braking acts normal, that is the car slows as you step on the brake, with it slowing more the more you push, the amps are around -45 and dropping down as the car slows until I come to a stop at 100% on the coach.

 

When it is not acting correctly, that is I press on the brake, the car slows a little, regen circle is spinning, and the amps to the HVB are in the mid -50's, near -60, yet the car is not slowing down as it should, and I have to press harder on the brakes to slow it, engaging the pads instead before the car slows. There are times where I nearly miss my turn since the car is not slowing as expected, and at times I have to push really hard and it feels as if there is air in the brakes before the car slows down.

 

I did a panic test the other day, the physical brakes are 100% perfect, the car STOPS!

 

OTOH when the brakes act properly the car slows down as expected, and I get 100% brake score, then there are times where it should have been 100% and its 98%. There are sections I drive on all the time, and know exactly where to apply the brakes for a perfect score and now when I do it, I cannot achieve a perfect score. The problem is repeatable regardless of the SOC of the HVB.

 

So in addition to the brakes blipping during a turn, they are also intermittent while just braking to a stop. I sure hope they can figure out what is causing it, let alone understand the exact issue I am complaining about. The car has been great, and I want to keep it for a long time, but if the regen braking is failing without codes, what happens when it finally does go coding and stops working altogether?

I noticed in an earlier post you mentioned you haven't been to your dealer yet for this, is that still the case? Please let me know, along with your mileage, and I can check out some options.

 

Meagan

[acdii]

Goes in on Wednesday, dropping it off tomorrow night. Today the regen brakes worked perfectly. They still blip while turning though. I also noticed an intermittent grinding noise when slowing or accelerating at slow speeds. Thought it was my imagination, but it did it again tonight pulling out of menards.

[FordService]

Goes in on Wednesday, dropping it off tomorrow night. Today the regen brakes worked perfectly. They still blip while turning though. I also noticed an intermittent grinding noise when slowing or accelerating at slow speeds. Thought it was my imagination, but it did it again tonight pulling out of menards.

Thanks for following-up. Please send me a PM with your VIN, mileage, best daytime phone number, full name, and dealer name/location. I can check out some additional assistance.

 

Meagan

[acdii]

Well, I talked to the tech working on my car, and of course they got nowhere with it. Getting the usual BS, its normal. I explained quite clearly that if Ford says the brakes going away during a turn is normal, they can buy the car back. Apparently he did not understand the situation so I explained in detail that when slowing through a turn in regen only, when the steering wheel reaches the 90* mark past horizontal(1/4 turn) the regen stops braking for a brief instant, making it feel like the car surges forward. I demonstrated it several times to the service manager who agreed its not normal, however no one talked to the service manager like I asked.

 

Meagan, I will PM you if they don't resolve it, until then I dont want to throw anything at them outside of their department unless I dont get a clear resolution.

 

Right now I am at the point where if Ford can't fix it, or wont fix it, then I dont know what to do since I really can't take a risk of having a crash because of the brakes doing this. If something does happen, then I will be at fault driving a car with a known safety issue. This problem, and the other one I cannot replicate because it happens at random make me not want to drive the car anymore which sucks because I like the car so much.

 

At least this is something that can be felt unlike the MPG issue I had with the other one. There is clearly an issue, and I will NOT take, its normal as an answer this time around. Ford tells me it's normal, they can come and get the car.

[corncobs]

acdii how fast do you need to drive to get this happening?

 

I have a feeling from your latest explanation my is doing the same sometimes.

When I got home today I felt an odd surge when making a half turn on the street to be able back into my driveway.

[lolder]

In the late '70's, somebody should have driven a Chevy or Olds diesel on fire into the GM CEO's living room. I had a '79 Olds diesel wagon that blew three head gaskets in the 6 months I owned it. The guy I sold it to blew another one shortly. They took the hood off to remove the heads and change the gaskets and while replacing the hood dropped it through the windshield. The dealer humanely went bankrupt a few years later. Higher ups don't face enough consequences. At worst they fire them and give them ( tens of ) millions in a golden parachute.

 

Acdii, you should be ready to go back to a Prius by now.

Edited April 17, 2015 by lolder

[FordService]

...Meagan, I will PM you if they don't resolve it, until then I dont want to throw anything at them outside of their department unless I dont get a clear resolution...

I'll keep an eye out!

 

Meagan

[Texasota]

Meagan, I will PM you if they don't resolve it, until then I dont want to throw anything at them outside of their department unless I dont get a clear resolution.

 

That seems like a wise course of action to me. Give your dealership a chance to make you happy before you unleash Megan's wrath on them.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Texasota

[acdii]

Could not replicate. Turns out the SM I pointed it out to has not been in this week. Will go in tomorrow and take the other SM for a drive and show him what is happening.

 

CC, the problem can occur at any speed. Pulling into my driveway at under 20 MPH I will skip when it happens, my driveway is gravel, so the sudden boost of the bakes going away is quite noticeable then.

 

I mostly notice it when turning off a highway onto another highway, and all on right angle turns. There is one road that goes from 55 down to 40 and turns 90* left, then about a mile or so at 40 with a right 90* turn, and it happens at both turns regardless of speed. Of course the faster the turn the more I notice it.

 

Now from a legal stand point, knowing the car does this, and it is now documented with no fix, do I drive it and take a risk? If something happened while turning that this caused a crash, what would happen? Anyone know on this?

 

This is my main concern on the whole thing, the regen straight line braking from 60 down is so sporadic and un-repeatable that its not something to waste time on, but the brakes cutting out while turning has me greatly concerned. From a legal standpoint, I feel the car is unsafe to drive.

[GrySql]

 

That seems like a wise course of action to me. Give your dealership a chance to make you happy before you unleash Megan's wrath on them.

I agree to disagree...

Meagan gives them cookies, nice works.

Edited April 18, 2015 by GrySql

[GrySql]

Now from a legal stand point, knowing the car does this, and it is now documented with no fix, do I drive it and take a risk? If something happened while turning that this caused a crash, what would happen? Anyone know on this?

From a legal standpoint, I feel the car is unsafe to drive.

You're making payments on a car you don't trust.

You probably need to get a CSM involved to make a higher level decision, this doesn't seem to be going anywhere at the Dealer level.

I vote for having Meagan connect you with your area CSM, they can get Ford Engineers in there to help diagnose the issue.

The two times I used a CSM things got done.

Edited April 18, 2015 by GrySql

[acdii]

The dealer isnt dismissing it, they just didn't fully understand the complaint until now. The SM now understands after we did a drive and I pointed it out. Normally what he felt would have been ignored, but when it is incremental, meaning the faster the turn, the more noticeable it is, then its a different story. They are getting a high level tech in, but it wont be for a few weeks.

 

In the meantime I do have the car back, but the legal standpoint still remains, and I am not sure what to do about it.

 

The lowdown on the other SM not getting involved, turns out he was promoted and his last day was Tuesday. He has been out the rest of the week, so was not available to discuss. The other SM did talk to him this morning and is now fully aware of what the complaint is.

[GrySql]

Did they commit to saying that the car was unsafe to drive?

If you think it is and it's worrying you why not tell them exactly how you feel, maybe a rental car will be offered until these Techs show up.

[acdii]

They didn't, but then again, they have not driven the car like I do or encountered it at the speeds I normally do.

 

 

On a Side note, Oh BOY did I scare myself. I did a hard reset, disconnecting both batteries, and let it sit for a couple hours while I painted the new door I installed last week. Hooked everything back up and the car would not start. Stop Safely NOW was the only thing on the screen, then the wrench light came on see manual. Turns out I didn't push the latch on the HVB in all the way. OOPS. Thought Great, now it needs a tow. Started up once I got that corrected. Will see if resetting everything makes any difference. SM thought was worth a shot anyway.

[GrySql]

 

Turns out I didn't push the latch on the HVB in all the way. OOPS. Thought Great, now it needs a tow. Started up once I got that corrected.

 

LOL, you're not the first to do that, way back in early 2013 when we'd first found out about a 'Hard Reset' I did it too. :gaah: