New Transmission

[lolder]

It appears that there are two sections to that radiator; the upper half for the electric powertrain cooling which uses coolant fluid and the lower half for the transmission fluid ( oil ) cooling. It is of interest why Ford didn't worry about transmission fluid cooling/circulation in the HEV while towing and yet did in the PHEV EnergI under normal operation. The electric powertrain would not need much cooling while towing but one would think the transmission fluid circulation should be the same because all the same gears and bearings are turning.

 

We don't know enough about this yet but three transmission failures on this forum are three more than I would expect.

 

There were a number of failures in 2004+ Ford Escape hybrids most attributed to a faulty motor electronics coolant pump which caused "Pull over Now" warnings.

Edited February 11, 2015 by lolder

[Texasota]

We don't know enough about this yet but three transmission failures on this forum are three more than I would expect.

Three transmission failures is a concern but I don't think we can conclude that there is a pattern yet. At least there does not appear to be the widespread discussion/documentation on failures like there is for the Focus/Fiesta dual-clutch transmission. It would be interesting to know what the failure rate for our eCVTs is compared to that of the traditional 6-speed transmissions in the gas fusions.

[lolder]

Aside from the failures of the Escape transmissions due to the coolant pump, failures have been almost non-existent. There have been some "Pull over now" instances but they did not require a transmission replacement. I have been on this and other Ford hybrid forums since 2009 and I cannot recall another instance of the 2010+, 2013+ hybrids having these problems until now.

We are the canary in the coal mine here.

[hybridbear]

I've seen a few C-Max owners also post about needing new transmissions for the same issues. One poster said he ran a fleet of C-Max taxis in Phoenix and that a large percentage of his fleet had transmission failures after about 1 year & 60,000 miles. Unfortunately he didn't provide many details and never returned to the forum to post an update.

[lolder]

The Advanced Vehicle Testing Activity ( avt.inl.gov/pdf/hev/ar2013FordCMaxHEV.pdf ) has four C Max's under test in AZ which is usually the Phoenix Basin. They have a combined 200,000 + miles on them with no mention of transmission failures. Maybe the poster was a troll.

[GrayStrider]

Four weeks to the day, and I have my car back. Yay! But as soon as I got in, I started wondering what's that smell, and forgot about the AC musty odor. Ugh. If we have that replaced, it's out of our pocket.

 

The dealership which did my transmission replacement did one prior to mine. I'm wondering if I could have them reprogram it back to the lower EV speed that the car originally came with to help extend the transmission life. Hubby is seriously thinking of getting something else considering the musty AC issue, the possibility of another transmission failure 2 or so years from now, and a stereo system that has a hiss to it. Not sure how we'd fare since we've only made 37.5% of the 72 month payment plan we chose when we financed it. Have no idea what we'd get as a replacement, and I'm angry with Ford that we're even thinking about this due to issues we've had with the car. I love the styling and comfort but is it worth keeping at this point? Don't want to foot the bill next time should the transmission fail, which could be 2.25 years from now if it happens again based on the mileage where most have failed at this point.

 

Someone earlier asked about the ratio of EV to total miles: 18993.2 EV miles, 49930.3 total miles = 38% EV mode.

[Texasota]

Don't want to foot the bill next time should the transmission fail, which could be 2.25 years from now if it happens again based on the mileage where most have failed at this point.

You eCVT transmission is covered by the factory hybrid component warranty which is good for 8 years or 100,000 miles.

[GrayStrider]

You eCVT transmission is covered by the factory hybrid component warranty which is good for 8 years or 100,000 miles.

 

Right but the first one failed at 49K miles. Another user had his fail at 55K miles. If it fails again, it's very possible that it will happen when we're past the 100K miles mark. Personally, I think if they had to replace it, the clock should be resent and mine should be good for 8 years/100K miles as of yesterday. Just my humble opinion.

[lolder]

I agree !

[hybridbear]

 

Right but the first one failed at 49K miles. Another user had his fail at 55K miles. If it fails again, it's very possible that it will happen when we're past the 100K miles mark. Personally, I think if they had to replace it, the clock should be resent and mine should be good for 8 years/100K miles as of yesterday. Just my humble opinion.

In California the warranty is 10 years or 150,000 miles. I don't think you need to worry. You could take advantage of the Ford reps on this Forum to look into getting some assistance from Ford for the musty AC smell issue.

[hybridbear]

Not sure how we'd fare since we've only made 37.5% of the 72 month payment plan we chose when we financed it.

 

Someone earlier asked about the ratio of EV to total miles: 18993.2 EV miles, 49930.3 total miles = 38% EV mode.

72 months! Ouch!! I'm sure you'd be upside down by a few thousand dollars, particularly if you didn't put much money down.

 

38% EV is probably around average.

[lolder]

In California the warranty is 10 years or 150,000 miles. I don't think you need to worry. You could take advantage of the Ford reps on this Forum to look into getting some assistance from Ford for the musty AC smell issue.

Wasn't there a discussion that the CARB state warranties of 150,000 miles were only for the HVB and not the eCVT?

[hybridbear]

Wasn't there a discussion that the CARB state warranties of 150,000 miles were only for the HVB and not the eCVT?

The way I understand it is that CARB is concerned with emissions & thus anything that could increase emissions is covered. Thus the eCVT should be covered.

 

BEVs don't get coverage from CARB since they don't have emissions. Thus, the Focus Electric battery & transmission is only covered for 5/60k, instead of the 8/100k (10/150k) like in the FFH/FFE.

Edited February 15, 2015 by hybridbear

[TonyHzNV]

CARB state coverage for the transmission assembly is only for 7 years/ 70K and then only for plug-ins. See pg 26/27 of the warranty guide to see what's covered. So, the Ford unique hybrid component warranty of 8 yrs/100K would still apply longer. And, I believe only the FFE qualifies for the 15/150K because it qualifies as an AT PZEV but the FFH doesn't. Still the HVB warranty is 10/150K for the FFE.

Edited February 15, 2015 by TonyHzNV

[GrayStrider]

Now that I think about it, I recall the dealer telling us that in CA, the hybrid car components are covered for 10 years/150,000 miles.

 

The musty smell issue is on us as we're outside of the warranty period (it started around 39K miles). Really wishing we bought an extended warranty. When serviced for the musty AC smell last summer, they just deodorized the system, which didn't do much of anything.

[TonyHzNV]

Now that I think about it, I recall the dealer telling us that in CA, the hybrid car components are covered for 10 years/150,000 miles.

 

The musty smell issue is on us as we're outside of the warranty period (it started around 39K miles). Really wishing we bought an extended warranty. When serviced for the musty AC smell last summer, they just deodorized the system, which didn't do much of anything.

You really should review your 2013 Warranty Guide so you know what's covered and what's not especially since you're out of B to B warranty now. The 10 years/150K miles is only for the High Voltage Battery (HVB) and then only for the Fusion Energi and C-Max Energi (which are the only Ford California "AT PZEV" qualified vehicles - now called "TZEV"), not for all hybrid components. This CARB stuff is a little complicated and a lot of people think that the FFH is in the AT PZEV category, but it's not. You can see that by looking here: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/carpool/carpool.htm#FAQ The only (Ford) vehicles that are allowed to drive in HOV lanes with a single occupant (because they are AT PZEV certified vehicles) are listed there. If the FFH was a certified AT PZEV, it too would be allowed to use the HOV lanes with a single occupant. The FFH is covered by the "Standard California Emission Warranty" not the extended one for the plug-ins. So, your transmission warranty under the "Emissions Warranty" is 7 years/70K miles if you have a C-Max Energi or Fusion Energi. The Ford "Unique Hybrid Component Warranty" covers your eCVT (transmission) for 8 years/100K miles, so better than standard California. See page 27 of the Warranty Guide for covered components. Keep in mind, this warranty is only related to EMISSIONS related defects/problems.

 

Edit: The easiest way to tell if you have the Standard or Extended California Emissions Warranty is to open your hood and look at the emissions label on the underside of the front edge and see what it is certified as for California. As you can see in the pic of my emissions label below, my FFH is certified as a ULEV and NOT an AT PZEV (which gets the extended warranty). ULEVs get the standard CA emissions warranty. Only the Fusion Energi is a certified AT PZEV (TZEV for 2015 models).

 

From the Warranty Guide (Pg 22):

 

California Advanced Technology (AT) Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (PZEV) extended emission warranty coverage applies if your vehicle meets the following two requirements:

 

Your vehicle is registered in a state** that has adopted and is enforcing California AT PZEV emissions warranty regulations applicable to your vehicle at the time of repair, and

 

Your vehicle is certified as an AT PZEV in California as indicated on the vehicle emission control information label. Could someone who owns an Energi in a CARB state take a pic of your emissions label and post it so we can see that it says AT PZEV for the California certification?

 

http://www.fordfusionenergiforum.com/uploads/monthly_02_2015/post-73-0-70115400-1424276066.jpg

 

This label is from a 2013 Fusion Energi - just so you can see...

 

**Subject to change, the following states have adopted and are enforcing California AT PZEV emission warranty regulations:

California, Connecticut, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island and Vermont (NOTE: Oregon has adopted only the California AT PZEV high-voltage battery warranty (10 yrs/150,000 miles; standard California emissions warranty coverage applies to all other emission components.) (NOTE: Delaware, Pennsylvania and Washington did not adopt the California AT PZEV emission warranty; standard California emission warranty coverage applies to all emission components).

Edited February 18, 2015 by TonyHzNV

[acdii]

Now that I think about it, I recall the dealer telling us that in CA, the hybrid car components are covered for 10 years/150,000 miles.

 

The musty smell issue is on us as we're outside of the warranty period (it started around 39K miles). Really wishing we bought an extended warranty. When serviced for the musty AC smell last summer, they just deodorized the system, which didn't do much of anything.

Was it under warranty when you brought it in for the musty smell?

[hybridbear]

Was it under warranty when you brought it in for the musty smell?

I think she is saying that the musty smell started at 39k miles, thus it's too late.

[GrayStrider]

I think she is saying that the musty smell started at 39k miles, thus it's too late.

 

Right, the musty odor (thankfully it's not constant) started when we were out of the 3yr/36K warranty period.

 

The good thing is that the transmission replacement didn't cost us a cent - they paid for a rental for us while our car was at the dealer (for a full month) while they waited for the new transmission to ship. Installation was pretty quick - it just took what seemed like forever for the replacement to arrive at the dealership.

 

I'm wondering how many more of us there will be as the 2013 FFH's get up in mileage?

[acdii]

What did you hear in the trans when it went?

[lolder]

These transmissions are not "wearing out". They are having premature failures and we don't know what the cause is yet and how wide the problem is. Ford is on the hook for at least 8 years and 100,000 miles. They have been telling the dealers to send the failed transmissions to Ford without opening them so a failure analysis is surely underway. We are all waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[GrySql]

This is one of the busiest FFH sites on the Internet, we have heard of less than a dozen cases of failed eCVT's.

As this is the very heart of the Ford Hybrid system I doubt Ford can afford another 'scandal' in their highly touted system.

I agree, Ford is looking into this but the problem does not seem epidemic yet.

 

This may yet turn out like you predict Lolder, either a lower EV speed or a more frequent restart of the ICE to lube the eCVT. Both of which is a simple module reprogram.

I've learned that it pays to listen to what you say...

[acdii]

IF(note big if) the things that have started happening on mine are transmission related, then maybe it is a lubrication issue. Instead of messing with reprogramming, Ford may also have a retrofit kit to add the external pump used on the Energi to the FFH.

 

As noted in the other thread I started, I have heard this noise at low speed EV, and had dismissed it, but seeing that there have been a few failures, it has me questioning if the noise is normal or not, as it does sound like bearing noise. The regen brakes going away for a brief moment while turning could just be the steering wheel sensor, but it is not setting any codes. I just hope it doesn't cause me to lose control during a turn. At this time the noise I hear isn't a concern, but the brakes, that is.

[GrySql]

maybe it is a lubrication issue. Instead of messing with reprogramming, Ford may also have a retrofit kit to add the external pump used on the Energi to the FFH.

 

That occurred to me as well, but after thinking about the corporate way of handling things I came up with these scenarios:

-

A. Issue a TSB = 30 minutes on the Ford IDS shop laptop to reprogram certain Modules and no hardware = Low cost workaround and a clear Corporate legal conscience.

or

B. Admission of a failed Ford Hybrid system, engineering/designing the Retrofit eCVT lubrication kit, notification of 200,000+ owners, install shop time, reprogram PCM and other modules = BIG Bucks.

-

Me, I choose B.

Ford? If anything, I bet they choose A.

 

:future:

[acdii]

Most likely you are correct, I hope this is not an issue though, and just a few errant transmissions. For all we know, splash lubrication is all it really needs to stay lubed for the EV portion in the FFH, and the Energi uses the pump for periodic shots of lube.

 

Besides, if what I am hearing happens to be final drive problems, then that portion is sitting in the lube and has nothing to do with the pressurized system. Just me being paranoid is all, my daily drive no longer consists of driving in civilization where if the car does happen to break, I am near someone within 15-30 minutes, or near a place I can pull into. The trip to my new job is all highway, with long stretches of farmland, and very few places where I can pull into. There is only one gas station along the route once I am in Wisconsin until I get to the town where I work. At least there is a Ford dealer there.