Ford: I propose a new cold-weather setting!

[Thomz Fusion]

 

You can configure the engine temp to be displayed in the "My View" section.

 

 

I had no idea that I could configure the display to provide engine temp! I'll try this setting later today. THANKS - it should be helpful.

 

Regarding the 'free heat' issue, I doubt there is any real practical difference in engine efficiency between say 175 and 220 F. The engine efficiency is largely dictated by its combustion temperature and combustion efficiency, neither of which should be inflenced in any significant way between those temperatures. So, I continue to believe that extracting heat for the cabin between those temperatures will not reduce MPG performance.

 

I say 'largely dictated' above, because friction also comes into play - albiet to a more minor effect. But, again, once the engine has reached its normal operating range and it's oil has been heated I wouldn't anticipate any measurable difference in friction losses.

[ptjones]

 

Milleron and PTJones,

 

Actually, I believe what controls the engine temprature is the thermostat setting. Once it opens, which typically is about 190F in most normal vehicles, the radiator comes into play. I would be interested in knowing what temperature the thermostats on our hybrids are set at.

 

As an aside, wouldn't it be nice to have an engine temperature display on the dashboard?

 

Tom

FORD said on an Hotline Assistance Request that the Thermostat is fully open at 202*F and the operating temp is 202-212*F so I guess any heat above that would be "Free" or "wasted". I have seen going on the FWY MPG's go down for the first 15min. until ICE gets up to operating temp and then reverse and increase for the rest of the trip. I use a ScanGaugeII to monitor RPM's, Instantaneous MPG's, WT and Intake air temp. :)

 

Paul

Edited December 17, 2014 by ptjones

[Waldo]

FORD said on an Hotline Assistance Request that the Thermostat is fully open at 202*F and the operating temp is 202-212*F so I guess any heat above that would be "Free" or "wasted". I have seen going on the FWY MPG's go down for the first 15min. until ICE gets up to operating temp and then reverse and increase for the rest of the trip. I use a ScanGaugeII to monitor RPM's, Instantaneous MPG's, WT and Intake air temp. :)

 

Paul

 

Don't confuse the efficient operating temp with the emissions cycles. The engine will run inefficiently when cold not because it's cold, but because it's programmed to run rich in order to heat up the catalytic converter.

 

Again, why would Ford design a system that took 15 min on the freeway to warm up the engine if it was sacrificing fuel economy? If it was more efficient to heat up the engine fast and then keep it in that 202-212 range, that's how Ford would have programmed it.

[hybridbear]

 

Don't confuse the efficient operating temp with the emissions cycles. The engine will run inefficiently when cold not because it's cold, but because it's programmed to run rich in order to heat up the catalytic converter.

 

Again, why would Ford design a system that took 15 min on the freeway to warm up the engine if it was sacrificing fuel economy? If it was more efficient to heat up the engine fast and then keep it in that 202-212 range, that's how Ford would have programmed it.

The catalytic converter very quickly reaches temps greater than 1000 F. It takes under a mile of freeway driving with the ICE on to achieve that. I've found that the temp will range from 1100 to 1450 F in my normal driving on the highway with the ICE running. I have not yet been able to figure out why sometimes it's 1450 F and sometimes only 1100 F. I thought it could be related to how hard the ICE is working, but that doesn't account for the differences.

[Thomz Fusion]

 

Don't confuse the efficient operating temp with the emissions cycles. The engine will run inefficiently when cold not because it's cold, but because it's programmed to run rich in order to heat up the catalytic converter.

I have found that, during any season, once the engine engages it will run for a couple of minutes to get its emission system running properly. The center display used to state something to this effect. However, now my display simply says "operating normally".

 

However, I don't believe the engine is programmed to run rich to heat up the catalytic converter. It runs a bit rich initially because the engine is cold and the fuel doesn't burn as efficiently - but I believe that only takes a minute or so under extreme cold conditions. The catalytic converter will warm up quite nicely and quickly, whenever the engine is running.

[hybridbear]

The ICE will run rich before the O2 sensor is warm as well, but that takes less than a minute even under the most extreme cold because O2 sensors have heating elements built in to them. If the O2 sensor heating element isn't working the car will run rich longer and the CEL should come on.

[ptjones]

 

Don't confuse the efficient operating temp with the emissions cycles. The engine will run inefficiently when cold not because it's cold, but because it's programmed to run rich in order to heat up the catalytic converter.

 

Again, why would Ford design a system that took 15 min on the freeway to warm up the engine if it was sacrificing fuel economy? If it was more efficient to heat up the engine fast and then keep it in that 202-212 range, that's how Ford would have programmed it.

According to your logic FORD made our cars prefect (not a compromise) and yet Grill Covers improve MPG's by 2-4mpg during the winter time. In reality all cars are compromises , Price, MPG's and mechanicals to name a few. FORD engineers tried to limit heat loses with the shutters, but unfortunately they don't work as good as Grill Covers. :)

 

Paul

[Waldo]

According to your logic FORD made our cars prefect (not a compromise) and yet Grill Covers improve MPG's by 2-4mpg during the winter time. In reality all cars are compromises , Price, MPG's and mechanicals to name a few. FORD engineers tried to limit heat loses with the shutters, but unfortunately they don't work as good as Grill Covers. :)

 

Paul

 

The shutters have nothing to do with heat loss, they are purely in place for improved aerodynamics. Your 100% right on the compromises though, which is why I say what would be the compromise of Ford designing the system to keep the engine at 202? They chose instead to let it run at lower temps in many conditions, which means the heat generated between those lower temps and 202 is just as "free" as the heat generated above 202. I think that was my point, but I'm starting to lose track...

[ptjones]

 

The shutters have nothing to do with heat loss, they are purely in place for improved aerodynamics. Your 100% right on the compromises though, which is why I say what would be the compromise of Ford designing the system to keep the engine at 202? They chose instead to let it run at lower temps in many conditions, which means the heat generated between those lower temps and 202 is just as "free" as the heat generated above 202. I think that was my point, but I'm starting to lose track...

Do you have any scientific proof or test to substantiate "The shutters have nothing to do with heat loss, they are purely in place for improved aerodynamics." Just because FORD said it doesn't make it true without substantiation. My hundreds of hours testing discounts any significant improvement to aerodynamics. They only open up at HWY speeds when they need to be closed. They only open up when the ICE WT gets above 210*F below 50mph and 215*F at above 55mph, I video this operation with Laptop and ScanGaugeII to monitor WT. To be a real aerodynamic improvement they need to smooth the front surface of the car like a Grill Cover, not up against the radiator. :)

 

Paul

[FordService]

Ford Engineers,

 

I don't know if you follow this forum, but after driving my 2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid into my second winter, and experiencing a drop in MPG, I'd LOVE to see a tweak/option that would reduce the cold weather penalty.

 

As any Fusion hydrid driver in a northern climate knows, the ICE will run when the heater is on, since the engine water jacket is the only source of cabin heat. This, of course, reduces fuel economy. We experience a significant reduction in MPG during cold weather - partially as a result of the need to heat the passenger space.

 

In order to improve economy, I typically leave the heater off for short trips and rely upon the seat heaters. If I'm only going a mile or so, the heater setting doesn't help much anyway. I suspect others may be doing this as well.

 

For longer trips, I have been leaving the heater off until I've been driving for awhile (again relying upon the seat heaters for comfort), and then turn the heater on. This tends to help because the engine is typically warm enough that it then doesn't run extra due solely to the heater setting.

 

It occurs to me this could all be automatic. What I am asking is that Ford include an option in the 'settings' area - perhaps called something like "ECO Heater Setting." The setting wouldn't start the engine for the heater setting - but would still provide cabin heat when the engine water jacket temperature was high enough.

 

While this setting would increase the time that it takes to heat the passenger compartment in the car, it would result in an increase in fuel economy. I frankly am OK with the trade-off.

 

I would be interested in feedback from other hybrid drivers. Thoughts? Is this a crazy idea?

 

 

I would say that's a cool idea, but cold's the last thing you want. ;)

 

You can sign up for an account on Ford Social and post your idea for review.

 

Meagan

[Texasota]

 

You can configure the engine temp to be displayed in the "My View" section.

I have that configured in my "My View" but I think it is a graph only. At least I have not noticed that if displays the actual temperature. Am I incorrect, or is there another configurable option?

[ptjones]

I have that configured in my "My View" but I think it is a graph only. At least I have not noticed that if displays the actual temperature. Am I incorrect, or is there another configurable option?

You are right it is a graph and it doesn't move proportionally. Used ScanGaugeII to quantify the WT gauge would stay in the center for 25*F temp change. The top line is 247*F. :)

 

Paul

[Thomz Fusion]

 

The shutters have nothing to do with heat loss, they are purely in place for improved aerodynamics.

I believe you are wrong on that point. The shutters close when the engine is cold, in order to reduce the warm-up time.

 

This change was part of the modifications that Ford put in place with the revision to the hybrid programming earlier this year. While the shutters may have originally been designed solely for aerodynamic improvement, they are now also being used to help warm up the engine. I found this to be smart-thinking on the part of the Ford engineers...

[Waldo]

I believe you are wrong on that point. The shutters close when the engine is cold, in order to reduce the warm-up time.

 

This change was part of the modifications that Ford put in place with the revision to the hybrid programming earlier this year. While the shutters may have originally been designed solely for aerodynamic improvement, they are now also being used to help warm up the engine. I found this to be smart-thinking on the part of the Ford engineers...

 

 

Your thinking of it backwards. Think of the shutters as defaulting to closed all the time. They only open when required because of engine temps or A/C performance. The "reprogramming" didn't change the fundamental logic, it just narrowed the window of when they will open.

[ptjones]

 

 

Your thinking of it backwards. Think of the shutters as defaulting to closed all the time. They only open when required because of engine temps or A/C performance. The "reprogramming" didn't change the fundamental logic, it just narrowed the window of when they will open.

Waldo why don't you stick a camera in your grill and watch the shutter operation with respect to MPH and Temps like I did, then you can tell me how they work. Default position is open, Thats when you stop, start or shut off the car. They close when you start moving unless A/C is on or your WT is above 210*F. The update changes the opening temp from 190*F and fully open at 213*F to Opening and fully open at 210*F to 215*F. Have fun testing. :)

 

Paul

[Waldo]

Waldo why don't you stick a camera in your grill and watch the shutter operation with respect to MPH and Temps like I did, then you can tell me how they work. Default position is open, Thats when you stop, start or shut off the car. They close when you start moving unless A/C is on or your WT is above 210*F. The update changes the opening temp from 190*F and fully open at 213*F to Opening and fully open at 210*F to 215*F. Have fun testing. :)

 

Paul

 

So we're in agreement then. The shutters are an aerodynamic device that is only used when the car is moving. They default to closed unless the A/C or temperatures require them to open.

 

Unless you are parked into the wind, whether they are open or closed when stopped is irrelevant.

[Thomz Fusion]

 

 

Your thinking of it backwards. Think of the shutters as defaulting to closed all the time. They only open when required because of engine temps or A/C performance. The "reprogramming" didn't change the fundamental logic, it just narrowed the window of when they will open.

 

Perhaps, although I would be surprised if the default position was closed because it is more normal for things like this to be controlled in a 'fail safe' manner. This would imply that they would be powered to close. You wouldn't want the shutters to fail in the closed position, because that would eventually lead to overheating.

 

But the point of all of this is that the shutters are used, in part, to reduce the time for the engine to achieve normal operating temperature.

 

Motor Trend had this to report about the Ford modification (July 2013):

 

These software updates focus on three areas of fuel economy improvement: highway driving, short trips, and climate control use. The maximum pure electric speed is increased from 62mph to 85mph to allow for greater use of electric-only mode on the highway. Active grille shutters, which reduce aerodynamic drag, are optimized to better function in conditions like cold weather and when the air conditioner is running. Engine warm-up time is reduced by 50 percent, meaning that electric-only mode can be activated sooner after a cold startup. The climate control system will also use less energy in cold weather now due to minimized usage of the air conditioning compressor.

Read more: http://wot.motortrend.com/ford-software-update-hopes-to-improve-hybrid-mpg-386569.html#ixzz3MGnFzyx8

[Zathrus]

Waldo why don't you stick a camera in your grill and watch the shutter operation with respect to MPH and Temps like I did, then you can tell me how they work. Default position is open, Thats when you stop, start or shut off the car. They close when you start moving unless A/C is on or your WT is above 210*F. The update changes the opening temp from 190*F and fully open at 213*F to Opening and fully open at 210*F to 215*F. Have fun testing. :)

 

Paul

 

Just looked at my CMax and my shutters are closed with vehicle off. This makes sense, as I think you would want the shutters closed during cold starts when ICE turns on at start/idle

[Texasota]

Just looked at my CMax and my shutters are closed with vehicle off. This makes sense, as I think you would want the shutters closed during cold starts when ICE turns on at start/idle

Also looked at my 2015 sitting in the garage and the shutters are closed. But, these things by no means create an airtight barrier. They would leak cold air into the radiator area like a sieve. Here in Minnesota I suspect they would have only a negligible affect on warm up time at best.

 

PT, take a look at your C-Max when it is parked/cold. Maybe your C-max operates differently, or else you have it wrong.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Texasota

[hybridbear]

Perhaps, although I would be surprised if the default position was closed because it is more normal for things like this to be controlled in a 'fail safe' manner. This would imply that they would be powered to close. You wouldn't want the shutters to fail in the closed position, because that would eventually lead to overheating.

 

But the point of all of this is that the shutters are used, in part, to reduce the time for the engine to achieve normal operating temperature.

 

Also looked at my 2015 sitting in the garage and the shutters are closed. But, these things by no means create an airtight barrier. They would leak cold air into the radiator area like a sive. Here in Minnesota I suspect they would have only a negligible affect on warm up time at best.

As Texasota says, the shutters allow a ton of air through, even when closed. I doubt that they would cause the engine to overheat if closed.

[Waldo]

The shutters need power to stay open. If they didn't have any power, the air would blow them closed when you're moving.

 

If you designed them the other way so that they needed power to stay closed, then you would have to use constant electrical power to fight the aero energy so the faster you go, the more power you would need to draw, which would reduce efficiency, which is against the whole point of having them in the first place.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Waldo

[Texasota]

The shutters need power to stay open. If they didn't have any power, the air would blow them closed when you're moving.

 

If you designed them the other way so that they needed power to stay closed, then you would have to use constant electrical power to fight the aero energy so the faster you go, the more power you would need to draw, which would reduce efficiency, which is against the whole point of having them in the first place.

That makes total sense. I can clearly see what you mean about the rushing air forcing them closed.

[ptjones]

The shutters need power to stay open. If they didn't have any power, the air would blow them closed when you're moving.

 

If you designed them the other way so that they needed power to stay closed, then you would have to use constant electrical power to fight the aero energy so the faster you go, the more power you would need to draw, which would reduce efficiency, which is against the whole point of having them in the first place.

 

That makes total sense. I can clearly see what you mean about the rushing air forcing them closed.

I have a shutter assembly from my CMAX and It is geared, you can't force it open or closed. I believe the update did change the operation of shutters when stopped, because they use to be open when turning off the car. That was one of the advantages of Grill Covers. Was able to have them stay open when stop by turning A/C on and off and then turning car off. They will close again when car is turned on. Just another reason they are mainly for keeping the ICE warm. :)

 

Paul

[Waldo]

There's no doubt that they do help to keep the ICE warm. But that's not the reason Ford and all the other OEMs are spending money on them. Grill shutters cost around $40-50, for that price you could choose instead to have an electric heater or something else to keep the engine warm.

 

Ford uses grill shutters on most of the Ecoboost engines to, do you really think they need help to keep warm? In fact the Edge has grill shutters only on the 2.0L Ecoboost. Do you think a 2L turbo engine in a 4000lb vehicle needs more help to stay warm than a 3.5L V6?

 

 

Here are a few other sources if you don't believe the shop manual which says:

The active grille shutter system is primarily used to maximize fuel economy by reducing aerodynamic drag on the vehicle. The active grille shutter system is also used to shorten engine warm-up time, increasing engine efficiency and providing heat to the vehicle occupants in a timely manner.

 

http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/active-grille-shutters-are-latest-way-to-improve-fuel-efficiency.html

 

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1079678_active-shutter-grille-vents-how-they-help-improve-mpg

 

http://www.google.com/patents/US20140132033

 

GM is even using grill shutters on its EV vehicles:

http://www.google.com/patents/US20140132033

 

Bet that keeps the ICE nice and warm!!

 

And yes, I have seen wind tunnel data showing grill shutter data. They typical reduce the Cd by about 0.01 to 0.015.

[Waldo]

 

I have a shutter assembly from my CMAX and It is geared, you can't force it open or closed.

 

Paul

 

Maybe you can't, but 60mph air is much stronger than you.