Tire snow cables

[mwr]

I like this alternative that I saw on another forum:

Will Ford send a tow truck to transport our FFH all over the CA snow resort, or pay for a taxi/limo to take us to the resort, and if not, pay for the extra days at the hotel until the CA 'chains required' signs were down? ;)

-

Meanwhile, for the California Dealer's point of view, I just dropped this issue on the desk of my SA at my favorite Dealership. I explained about CA's 'chain' rule vs snow tires, etc, etc.

After that discussion I asked this simple question: What is Ford's response to having sold FFH's to people in CA mountain communities where chains are often required.

 

If CA Ford FFH owners cannot drive their new $30k+ cars for part of the year because of some driveline or tire clearance issue, Ford better have a reasonable solution.

The SA is researching this issue.

What forum was that?

[GrySql]

I was all over, FF, Explorer, Edge - I forget which one said that.

Why our OM prohibits snow chains is what needs to be addressed, if it is the AdvanceTrac system or the HF-35 eCVT we'd like to know.

 

Take a look at this 2013 gas Fusion with 17" tires and snow chains. Of course it doesn't have an eCVT.

 

[FordService]

I was all over, FF, Explorer, Edge - I forget which one said that.

Why our OM prohibits snow chains is what needs to be addressed, if it is the AdvanceTrac system or the HF-35 eCVT we'd like to know.

 

Take a look at this 2013 gas Fusion with 17" tires and snow chains. Of course it doesn't have an eCVT.

I reached out to my Hybrid Specialist, GrySql. This is the information he shared with me:

 

The Fusion Hybrid vehicle is equipped with all-season tires designed to operate in snowy conditions. Any tire replacement should only be with like tires of the specifications stated on the TREAD Label found in the drivers door post area.

 

Vehicle owners should consult their Owners Manual for complete information on this topic.

 

Traction aid devices are not approved for use on this vehicle because the Hybrid powertrain cannot accommodate the additional strain introduced by these types of devices.

 

Rachel

[mwr]

The Fusion Hybrid vehicle is equipped with all-season tires designed to operate in snowy conditions.

 

Traction aid devices are not approved for use on this vehicle because the Hybrid powertrain cannot accommodate the additional strain introduced by these types of devices.

In California and, I suspect, in many other places, you simply can't drive past the Highway Patrol chain checkpoints without approved chains or cables (unless you're in a four-wheel drive vehicle). Which leaves us unable to use our FFHs for a significant part of our normal driving if that driving includes winter in the Sierras, which it does for many people. These $30,000 cars were sold to us with no mention of that serious limitation.

[hermans]

"Traction aid devices are not approved for use on this vehicle because the Hybrid powertrain cannot accommodate the additional strain introduced by these types of devices."

 

If this is the case, Ford should be advertising that fact and printing it in their FFH and MKZh brochures. I look at this from a legal viewpoint. There are many areas in the US and Canada that require chains (as pointed out by other posters in this thread). If I lived in such an area and found out, after the fact, that Ford does not recommend anything beyond snow tires, but the local laws do and it was not disclosed anywhere in their advertising, Ford and I would be doing the "legal dance." Most people base their buying decision in advertising and then informing themselves about the product. I'll bet the dealers will tell you that you can use tire chains on the hybrids during periods of heavy snow.

 

I will test that theory out in the next several days and report what I find.

[GrySql]

 

I reached out to my Hybrid Specialist, GrySql. This is the information he shared with me:

 

The Fusion Hybrid vehicle is equipped with all-season tires designed to operate in snowy conditions. Any tire replacement should only be with like tires of the specifications stated on the TREAD Label found in the drivers door post area.

 

Vehicle owners should consult their Owners Manual for complete information on this topic.

 

Traction aid devices are not approved for use on this vehicle because the Hybrid powertrain cannot accommodate the additional strain introduced by these types of devices.

 

Rachel

Thanks Rachel, I'm glad I have another car that can be 'chained up'. I'm looking forward to what hermans finds out.

My Dealer's SA is strangely silent so far, guess I'll call him again.

 

Added: I sent a question to eTrailer's website last week about chains and their reply today was the Owner's Manual is the authority, they don't sell chains for FFH's.

Edited December 1, 2014 by GrySql

[GrySql]

"Traction aid devices are not approved for use on this vehicle because the Hybrid powertrain cannot accommodate the additional strain introduced by these types of devices."

 

If this is the case, Ford should be advertising that fact and printing it in their FFH and MKZh brochures. I look at this from a legal viewpoint. There are many areas in the US and Canada that require chains (as pointed out by other posters in this thread). If I lived in such an area and found out, after the fact, that Ford does not recommend anything beyond snow tires, but the local laws do and it was not disclosed anywhere in their advertising, Ford and I would be doing the "legal dance." Most people base their buying decision in advertising and then informing themselves about the product. I'll bet the dealers will tell you that you can use tire chains on the hybrids during periods of heavy snow.

 

I will test that theory out in the next several days and report what I find.

Just for fun I looked in the 2015 Accord Hybrid OM and the 2013 Camry Hybrid OM and they both can use snow chains.

[Waldo]

In California and, I suspect, in many other places, you simply can't drive past the Highway Patrol chain checkpoints without approved chains or cables (unless you're in a four-wheel drive vehicle). Which leaves us unable to use our FFHs for a significant part of our normal driving if that driving includes winter in the Sierras, which it does for many people. These $30,000 cars were sold to us with no mention of that serious limitation.

 

It was mentioned in the owner's guide which was available to you before you made your purchase. Did you specifically ask the salesperson if it was compatible with chains? If one is regularly driving through areas requiring chains, I would expect that question to be asked or researched before a purchase. There are many, many vehicles for sale today that are not compatible with snow chains. Even the regular Fusion can only use snow chains with the 16in wheels, for all other wheels sizes (which is about 95% of all Fusions), Ford does not recommend chains.

[mwr]

It was mentioned in the owner's guide which was available to you before you made your purchase. Did you specifically ask the salesperson if it was compatible with chains? If one is regularly driving through areas requiring chains, I would expect that question to be asked or researched before a purchase.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

[Waldo]

I couldn't disagree with you more.

 

I understand, but where do you draw the line? Does Ford need to point out that you can't fit 3 suitcases in the trunk because of the HVB? Does Ford need to mention that the low rolling resistance tires don't stop as well as other tires? Does Ford need to point out that using the heater in the FFH reduces fuel economy by a bigger percentage than in a conventional car?

There are a lot of things any given car can't do, is it really up to the salesperson / Ford, to point out every one of them to every customer before every purchase?

[GrySql]

Just talked to the Service Manager at my Dealer and he verified that their answer is the same as the Owners Manual.

 

A customer would have to ask that specific question to find out about the snow cable policy.

The Sales Dept sure wouldn't voluntarily offer any info that might stop a sale.

Let the buyer beware...

[mwr]

My salesman took this issue to their service department and came back to me with the following: I spoke with service and the car is recommended to use cables if anything at all. Chains are not recommended at all. Other than that, taking the car to the snow should be fine

 

So now their service department recommendation conflicts with the manual. I then asked for something in writing saying it was OK to use cables in spite of what it says in the manual.

[mwr]

But, but, but they are Michelins so they gotta work...

 

"manufactured using aramid and polyamide treated with polyurethane, steel and thermoplastic materials."

Check the amazon review of these that begins "Not for California roads".

 

http://www.amazon.com/Michelin-9801000-Easy-Composite-Chain/dp/B0053UE2PG

Edited December 2, 2014 by mwr

[GrySql]

Well, I am crushed, Michelin failed me....

Edited December 2, 2014 by GrySql

[lolder]

I guess this is all about your personal viewpoint. By the way, what is this "Snow" that you are referring to? And what is a "mountain". We have a shell mound about 50 ' high within a 100 miles. Is that one? It was 82º F here today.

I did live in N J for 42 years and usually chains and cables were prohibited on highways and interstates after snow tires came out.

I think an interstate that required chains or cables would be a steep mountain to most of us. If I knew that was frequently a requirement I would have asked a salesman about it.

[mwr]

I guess this is all about your personal viewpoint. By the way, what is this "Snow" that you are referring to? And what is a "mountain". We have a shell mound about 50 ' high within a 100 miles. Is that one? It was 82º F here today.

I did live in N J for 42 years and usually chains and cables were prohibited on highways and interstates after snow tires came out.

I think an interstate that required chains or cables would be a steep mountain to most of us. If I knew that was frequently a requirement I would have asked a salesman about it.

I understand your point of view from your perspective. But for those of us living here, driving into or through the Sierras is simply a part of living here, and I think we are entitled to assume that cars sold here are up to that common task.

 

I-80 through the Sierras has an average daily traffic count of 26,500.

Edited December 2, 2014 by mwr

[lolder]

Just for fun I looked in the 2015 Accord Hybrid OM and the 2013 Camry Hybrid OM and they both can use snow chains.

HAH's are a different type of hybrid. TCH's are the same type but have a different collinear shaft architecture whereas the FFH is a combination of collinear and parallel shafts. The FFH eCVT is substantially bigger than the TCH so it is surprising that it is restricted.

None of the FFH's are approved for towing. I did securely lash a bench to the top of my 2010 FFH for a 400 mile interstate 70mph trip in 98ºF. temperatures. MPG went from 40 to 30 with no other effects at all. That is additional strain on the drivetrain but it is not jerky like traction aids.

You could probably put cables on a FFH and get away with it with very careful driving but if you broke the eCVT it would cost a bundle and not be covered by the warranty. Sorry !

[Easy Rider]

I couldn't disagree with you more.

That's fine but that doesn't make you "right".

 

Caveat emptor governs much of the commerce in the US; Let the buyer beware.

If they outright lied to you that's a different matter.

 

Since roughly 90% or more (just a guess)of the driving public never encounters those conditions, I doubt that any court would require Ford or any other company to emphasize that requirement in their sales information.

 

If you REALLY do that much driving in "chains required" areas, I think it is just common sense that you would ask BEFORE you buy.

[Waldo]

I don't think it has anything to do with the hybrid system. As I pointed out, even the base Fusion is only allowed snow chains on 16in tires. The FFH has never been sold with 16in tires, therefore no FFH has ever been allowed snow chains.

 

If you look at the Honda or Toyota OGs, you'll see they very specifically recommend certain chain models or provide very specific dimensions. Ford has obviously decided that's too complicated for customers, so they just use a generic snow chain clearance "zone" and decide either yes or no.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Waldo

[GrySql]

That's fine but that doesn't make you "right".

Caveat emptor governs much of the commerce in the US; Let the buyer beware.

If they outright lied to you that's a different matter.

Since roughly 90% or more (just a guess)of the driving public never encounters those conditions, I doubt that any court would require Ford or any other company to emphasize that requirement in their sales information.

If you REALLY do that much driving in "chains required" areas, I think it is just common sense that you would ask BEFORE you buy.

When buying a new vehicle most of us made assumptions based on what our prior knowledge of cars happened to be. That is where this FFH can fool you, it doesn't work like most.

We have many people that come here to research the FFH before they purchase one, they may not know how to find a Owner's Manual online.

Since the introduction of the 2013 FFH I don't recall that the snow chain question has come up on this Forum.

 

Your assumption that 90% of the driving public doesn't encounter snow chain winter conditions doesn't quite hold up to the facts.

There are only 7 States that don't have snow chain laws, Florida is one of them.

There are 14 States that have snow chain laws that may require their use when the highway authority deems the roads unsafe without them. Chain up or park your car.

AZ, CA, CO, ID, MD, MT, NY, OR, PA, SD, UT, VA, WA and WY hold a lot of people and all of them are subject to the mandatory chain laws, when encountered.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71MW0ViVybS.pdf

 

I doubt that every person that buys a car in those states remembers to ask if the FFH can use chains.

Making a comment that another member didn't use common sense when they bought their car is not helpful.

 

--

Waldo, our Ford Rep asked the Ford Hybrid expert about this and his comment was: "Traction aid devices are not approved for use on this vehicle because the Hybrid powertrain cannot accommodate the additional strain introduced by these types of devices." If you can't trust the 'Hybrid Expert', who can you trust??

Anyway, it has already been shown that Fusions with 17" wheels can use 'traction devices' just fine.

 

[murphy]

I've lived in PA all of my life and have not used chains since all season (M+S) tires were invented. The last time I bought "snow" tires they had a tread that was at least an inch deep and had holes to install studs. I don't see anyone advertising those anymore.

[Easy Rider]

Your assumption that 90% of the driving public doesn't encounter snow chain winter conditions doesn't quite hold up to the facts.

 

AZ, CA, CO, ID, MD, MT, NY, OR, PA, SD, UT, VA, WA and WY hold a lot of people and all of them are subject to the mandatory chain laws, when encountered.

 

While I pulled that number out of the air, your facts don't really refute it because......those entire states don't have conditions that warrant such actions, EVER. Arizona and California are the best examples but parts of the other states never see a need either.

[hermans]

"Traction aid devices are not approved for use on this vehicle because the Hybrid powertrain cannot accommodate the additional strain introduced by these types of devices."

 

If this is the case, Ford should be advertising that fact and printing it in their FFH and MKZh brochures. I look at this from a legal viewpoint. There are many areas in the US and Canada that require chains (as pointed out by other posters in this thread). If I lived in such an area and found out, after the fact, that Ford does not recommend anything beyond snow tires, but the local laws do and it was not disclosed anywhere in their advertising, Ford and I would be doing the "legal dance." Most people base their buying decision in advertising and then informing themselves about the product. I'll bet the dealers will tell you that you can use tire chains on the hybrids during periods of heavy snow.

 

I will test that theory out in the next several days and report what I find.

OK, I've been to 4 Ford/Lincoln dealers and asked 6 salesmen, "can I use tire chains or cables in heavy snow conditions on my Fusion hybrid?" All six replies ranged from, "sure no problem" "yes" to "I don't see why you couldn't." Ford really needs to disclose this in their upfront advertising.

 

The posters comment, "It was mentioned in the owner's guide which was available to you before you made your purchase." is just outlandish. No where does Ford recommend reading the owners manual before purchasing the car and suggesting people should do so is really stretching the rubberband beyond its capacity.

 

My time was really not wasted as my Christmas shopping is done and I looked at a number of 2015 Mustangs. I did this in the Detroit area during Thanksgiving week and really liked what I saw. Next step the test drive.

Edited December 3, 2014 by hermans

[Hybrider]

...

My time was really not wasted as my Christmas shopping is done and I looked at a number of 2015 Mustangs. I did this in the Detroit area during Thanksgiving week and really liked what I saw. Next step the test drive.

 

And to read the Owner's Manual. ;)

[Easy Rider]

Ford really needs to disclose this in their upfront advertising.

 

Don't hold your breath; it ain't gonna happen.

 

They COULD and should, however, see to it that their sales staff is aware of the limitation.....in those areas where it might be a problem for the owners.

 

Then maybe they DO know and are just lying to you.

 

My salesman told me that updates to the GPS maps are free.

Brain cramp or dishonest ????

Edited December 3, 2014 by Easy Rider