My Wife calls it a 'Grinding Noise'

[r.furborough]

I first started to notice this noise when staying with friends over christmas/new year. I noted that as they live in a development with a 25mph speed limit and there are several intersections before reaching the main highway.

 

With the cold temperatures, the ICE starts almost immediately as the car starts and slowly accelerates. Just before the car reaches 25mph and the RPM's meet the road speed there is a rumbling / grinding noise from the transmission just before the ICE shuts down and the electric drive takes over. I can only describe it as a noise you would get from a worn or dry bearing that chatters or an old inertia starrter, the ones with a Bendix gear that bark or squeal after starting an engine, but much more muted than that. It does not do this in a similar scenario when in electric mode, it's only when the ICE is being used.

 

The noise is also repeatable at will and appears to be louder now than I first heard it. My wife is the normal daily driver of the vehicle, so I have not thought too much of it until I drove it this weekend after installing the new air intake tube. Maybe that is why it seems louder.

 

I will be contacing my dealer to try and get an appointment where i can demonstrate the noise rather than just report it and have to return again to have it addressed.

 

Any thoughts or ideas?

Edited March 4, 2014 by r.furborough

[hybridbear]

Doesn't sound good. If you're able to make the car make the noise at will then the dealer should be able to diagnose it. Get Ashley involved to help move the process along with your dealer.

[r.furborough]

Well, I got the car to the dealer we bought the car from, Got a mechanic in the car and I repeatedly recreated the grinding noise. Swapped seats and the mechanic could not recreated it.

He acknowledged he heard the problem while I was driving but he obviously was not a hybrid driver.

 

However, we did get an appointment, after he spoke with the service advisor, and the car is going back in on Monday, when, hopefully, I will be able to demonstrate the problem again.

[hybridbear]

Well, I got the car to the dealer we bought the car from, Got a mechanic in the car and I repeatedly recreated the grinding noise. Swapped seats and the mechanic could not recreated it.

He acknowledged he heard the problem while I was driving but he obviously was not a hybrid driver.

 

However, we did get an appointment, after he spoke with the service advisor, and the car is going back in on Monday, when, hopefully, I will be able to demonstrate the problem again.

If you can recreate the noise then they shouldn't tell you "nothing is wrong" and "go away". Perhaps you can describe to the mechanic exactly what you do to get the noise to happen. I had to do this on the old black FFH a couple times. Even though the mechanic had trouble recreating it, he was able to start guessing about what parts to replace.

[r.furborough]

Today, I visited my dealer again. This time I have a transmission technician test drive the car after I first demonstrate the noise and have a confirmation that he heard it. During the drive, he replicates the noise repeatedly and states that he does not think the noise is from the transmission, but is resonance within the exhaust system.

 

The car stays at the dealers for the day. I get a call fom the service advisor about lunchtime to explain that 2 mechanics have been trying to locate the source if the noise, but so far have not been able to do so and will be contacting Ford.

 

I called after 5pm to find out what the status was and was advised that the noise source could not be found. They had also taken a new 2014 FFH and were able to replicate the noise in this vehicle and as no reports were found in Fords Oasis system, the noise is probably normal. I did not have an opportunity myself to drive this vehicle, but have no reason to doubt the report.

 

I now have the vehicle back and aparently further enquiries are being made to find if this noise is normal.

 

As the transmission in the FFH is a hybrid component and is covered by the 8 year / 100,000 mile warranty I have no immediate concerns, but I do find it quite strange that no one else has reported this or a similar noises that are aparently normal in this type of vehicle.

 

I will follow up with them in a week to find out if they have any further information from Ford,

[jeff_h]

but I do find it quite strange that no one else has reported this or a similar noises that are apparently normal in this type of vehicle.

 

Is this noise loud enough that you could record it with your phone? If so then you could post/refernce it here and others can see if it sounds familiar..

[GrySql]

I've read your first post carefully but it is not clear to me how I'd try it in my car. Another factor is the weather, it's warm where I am.

Perhaps you will give us some real specific driving information on how you make the car do this.

Then, maybe some of us can follow your instructions to determine if our FFH's also make that noise under the same conditions.

 

Regarding what the Trans Tech said, resonance in the intake/exhaust system was a problem with the early 2013's but most of that noise was eliminated in the late '13's and newer FFH's.

It was a growling type of noise at lower speeds.

Changing out the intake tube fixed this for mine and other early 13's.

However, if the noise in your FFH and a new 2014 is the same then it most probably is not the same issue.

[acdii]

One other thing that wasn't mentioned, the noise cancellation. There is a chance you are hearing this kick in, I notice it every once in a while at certain times a low rumble.

 

I am wondering about a noise I am hearing in mine now. I dont know if its a bearing or a tire. I can feel it in the brake pedal too, sort of like a thumping grinding noise. It goes in Wednesday to have it checked out. It is most noticeable on a smooth road. The car is so quiet that even the slightest noise can be heard.

[r.furborough]

jeff-h: will certainly try to record the noise - it seems to come from the footwell area, more from the drivers side than the passenger, it's also one of those noises that your not quite sure how much you hear and how much is felt. BTW, I don't know how close we are to each other, I am in Norfolk, VA.

 

GrySql: I first noticed this when it was cold out, when you would normally be driving slowly and on battery, the difference was the ICE was running to deal with the heating demand for the occupants, so running at a fast idle. However, yesterday, I and the technician was able to reproduce it repeatedly with the outside temps in the 50's and the car already warm.

The way I reproduce it is to initially accelerate briskly to get the ICE to operate, then back off the throttle to a point that maintains the ICE operation while aiming for a target speed of 20 -25 MPH (higher than this and road noise seems to mask the noise). Just as you near the target speed and the maintain just enough throttle to prevent the ICE from cutting out. The Technician was able to replicate this and also by repeatedly accelerating to get the ICE to operate and then gently backing off to just before the ICE cuts out. He thought is was there at higher speeds also.

 

acdii: Interesting thought about the noise cancellation, I know what you are referring to as I used to work in communications in high noise environments and noise cancellation was a technique that was used in ANR (Active Noise Reduction) headsets. It would be easy to find out if the noise reduction system could be temporarily disabled.

[r.furborough]

BTW: the details of the car are

 

2013 FFH SE + 505A - 3FA6P0LU4DR161XXX

Build Date - 11/3/2012

Purchase Date - 12/8/2012

Current Mileage 24,283

[GrySql]

 

 

GrySql: I first noticed this when it was cold out, when you would normally be driving slowly and on battery, the difference was the ICE was running to deal with the heating demand for the occupants, so running at a fast idle. However, yesterday, I and the technician was able to reproduce it repeatedly with the outside temps in the 50's and the car already warm.

The way I reproduce it is to initially accelerate briskly to get the ICE to operate, then back off the throttle to a point that maintains the ICE operation while aiming for a target speed of 20 -25 MPH (higher than this and road noise seems to mask the noise). Just as you near the target speed and the maintain just enough throttle to prevent the ICE from cutting out. The Technician was able to replicate this and also by repeatedly accelerating to get the ICE to operate and then gently backing off to just before the ICE cuts out. He thought is was there at higher speeds also.

I tried to do this maneuver several times today and couldn't hear anything.

I'm either doing it wrong or my car doesn't make sounds like yours.

Edited March 11, 2014 by GrySql

[jeff_h]

jeff-h: will certainly try to record the noise - it seems to come from the footwell area, more from the drivers side than the passenger, it's also one of those noises that your not quite sure how much you hear and how much is felt. BTW, I don't know how close we are to each other, I am in Norfolk, VA.

 

I am way up in Stafford County but will be in VA Beach this Saturday to run on Sunday morning, send me a PM if you want to get together for a few minutes on Saturday midday.

[gemdc]

I am guessing you may be hearing the noise that I obsessed about in my 2013 FFH. I had no luck getting 2 dealers service guys to listen and agree that it was abnormal. I traded for a 2014 MKZh partly due to the noise. It was something my ears tuned in and amplified but in looking back and including my experience with the MKZh, I have decided it was mostly or even entirely my problem.

 

The way I could best reproduce the noise was to force it into ICE mode while the engine was cold by putting it in LOW range and slowly accelerating to about 5mph then slacking off, accelerate, slack off. I would get a "bucket of bolts" noise for about 1 to 2 seconds each time. In real life mode, I would hear it up to about 25 mph when the ICE was in a "slack" mode or as it kicked in from EV.

 

I put microphones under the hood and recorded them on my laptop computer and thought they were abnormal. Now, I am not so sure. I think there is a bit of gear slack as the ICE spins up or slacks off (sort of a no load state). Not noticeable in the Lincoln but I think it is just because of the better insulation as I have heard it in the MKZh on a few occasions when the ICE is still cold.

 

Just sayin, this may be something "normal" that we just get tuned in and can't tune out. I spent many hours trying to pin it down. The best test I found to narrow down the source of the noise was to jack up both front wheels, start up the ICE (Low range), and listen to the engine with a really large screwdriver with my ear on the handle. Normal engine noise until I put the screwdriver on the HF35 "transmission" where the 2 electric motors and the planetary gears are located on the drivers side end of the motor trans unit. Really loud gear slack noise there. As the wheels would spin up the sound would go away but would sound off loud every time the ICE would "catch up" and spin the wheels again. At that point I felt the only way to fix it would be to replace the "transmission". Now I have decided it is probably not really a "fault" but a "feature" as some software developers would say. BTW, almost any car will make some gear noise when you jack them up and let them rotate the wheels with no load. I just think the FFH lets this noise come through to the driver in "no load" situations in a rather "noticeable" manner when the ICE and trans gears are cold and you slack off or apply power at low speeds. I did not get anyone on the forum to confirm they heard this noise so thought it was just my vehicle. May have just been my hyper sensitive attitude.

 

Please let us know what your service people say about your noise. Maybe yours is different from what I had and maybe there is a fix short of replacing a $6000 transmission or trading for a Lincoln for even more dollars.

[r.furborough]

jef_h

 

Sent you a PM

 

Bob

 

 

 

I am way up in Stafford County but will be in VA Beach this Saturday to run on Sunday morning, send me a PM if you want to get together for a few minutes on Saturday midday.

[r.furborough]

Today I met briefly with jeff-h, thanks Jeff, for taking a few minutes to meet and good luck the run tomorrow.

 

Unfortunately Jeff was unable to hear anything that was not normal, he also drove my car and tried to replicate it for himself.

Jeff also allowed me to drive his Energi to see if I could replicate the problem with that - Answer was no.

 

However, after we parted this had me thinking. The Energi was a Titanium version and was noticeably quieter.

Was this due to more sound deadening material, better noise cancellation or maybe I have a problem with my Noise Cancellation.

This was something acdii alluded to.

 

Anyone care to comment on this or the diffference between the SE and the Titanium?

 

I have another vehicle to test drive soon, I turned a close friend on the the FFH and they bought a similar SE hybrid about

a month after we got ours. This will be a better comparison but I may not be able to drive is for a couple of weeks.

 

Bob

[acdii]

I'm betting on the ANC being the culprit. There are times where I hear it kick on when a truck or other loud vehicle goes by if I am at a stop light. Sounds like a low growl. Do you know if yours has the chamber on the intake tube?

[r.furborough]

acdii - yes it does have the later air intake tube, it was upgraded within the last month.

[r.furborough]

Had an interesting turn of events today.

Spent a few hours touring local neighborhoods looking at houses and taking the wife shopping.

The noise making itself known fom time to time and then it happend while parking. Ths car was almost at a standstill and the ICE started to either provide heat or replenish the battery and the noise was present and without any road noise I suddenly remember where I have heard the noise before. Its like a bad idler pulley!

Will have to look into this a little more......

[ROB281]

is it a chirping type noise heard on transition from electric to ice by any chance?

[r.furborough]

ROB281 - No it's not - Its only present whil;e the ICE is running,

[r.furborough]

I have been trying to locate a diagram or picutr of the Atkinson Cycle engine in the FFH to see if any belts and idlers are fitted as I know many of the engine ancilliaries that would normally require a belt on normal engines are replaced with electric motors, i.e. the water pump and AC compressor. I did a rearch on www.rockauto.com for a 2013 FFH and found they have a belt and idler listed for the AC systems, so I can only assume the electric motor for the AC is remotely mounted and the AC pump is belt driven. However, I cannot confirm this as I cannot find any information.

[acdii]

There are no exterior belts or pulleys on the FFH. Everything is driven electrically now, and the battery is charged via a DC/DC converter. What you are hearing is most likely the startup sequence of the ICE. It does make a funky sound when started. The MG spins up the ICE, and once up to speed, the injectors and spark fire off the keep it running then MG switches from Motor to Generator. Sometimes when mine fires off it sounds like a can of rocks shaken quickly.

[gemdc]

One thing I considered is the clutch plate. You wouldn't think the FFH has a clutch plate but it is there and looks pretty much like the clutch plate on a 1950 ford. Friction pads circular on both sides with 4 coiled torque springs near the hub. It is apparently there as a passive slip clutch to absorb shock between the ICE and the electric motor box as the ICE starts and stops. I thought maybe mine had a broken spring but it would certainly be hard to inspect. I found the diagram on Ford's parts catalog on their web site. They do not show a blowup of the rest of the HF35 transmission so you can't really see all the places where gear teeth mesh. There are a bunch of gears in the box and I think at least one set has the ability to make a racket when the ICE is running in sync with the rest of the gears (no load). It would be nice if someone would do a video showing the Ford box like they have done for the Prius. This is only the second year for the HF35 so we will have to wait until some start to wear out before anyone will show how they are put together. The parts list only shows the transmission as a unit and they evidently just replace the whole box if one has a problem. So far haven't heard of anyone having a problem requiring repair.

[r.furborough]

Had a chance to look into the 'noise' issue this weekend and found that the transmission is also noisey when the vehicle is stationary.

 

With the vehicle stopped, the hand brake applied, I started the car, placed it in neutral and pressed the accelerator to the floor to start the ICE. Here is what I heard

 

http://www.littlecreek-va.com/temp/FFH Transmission Noise.mp3

 

The noise appears loudest behind the engine infront of the firewall, this is where the recording was made. The engine starts at about 10 seconds and you can hear a knock in the background of the normal engine noise.

Unfortunately, the engine cannot be revved in this mode, so I was unable to reproduce the noise I normally hear.

 

Anyone care to see if their car can reproduce this.

 

Bob

Edited March 24, 2014 by r.furborough

[murphy]

You have too many www in your link.