Differences between Atkinson Cycle 2.0 (FFH) vs regular Ford 2.0 4cyl

[Aquineas]

This post is pure speculation, and I have no empirical data to back this up; my whole point of posting this is to get the opinions of others (even dissenting) and to see if what I'm saying even makes sense.

I keep thinking back to acdii's mileage issues. Here's what I'm focusing on regarding his case:

• With his first 2013 FFH, he could not, even under the best of circumstances, get mileage above 40mpg
• He has a lot of time and experience with a 2010 FFH which consistently got better mileage than his first 2013. Because of this fact alone, I never once believed his issues were related to his driving style (as some suggested).
• When they pulled his plugs, his plugs were fouled. This is a real clue. That's a sign of the engine running too rich. But why? That's the $20,000 question.
• His second 2013 FFH, he's had no problems getting into the 40s for mileage, exceeding both the 2010 and the 2013.
• Given that, it stands to reason that there really was something wrong with his first 2013.

So, about that plug-fouling thing. I started reading about Atkinson Cycle engines, and specifically, how they are designed to complete all four strokes of the engine in a single rotation of the crankshaft. Additionally, they operate at a lower compression with a longer power stroke for efficiency.

I'm not an ME, but it got me to wondering: what would happen if there was a mix-up somewhere along the way between the regular Ford 2.0 4 Cyl and the Atkinson cycle 4 cyl, either in part or whole? Again, I'm not saying there was one, I'm just wondering if it were even possible, and if it would explain the fouled plugs and poor mileage of some of the FFHs out there. Theoretically I would think such a mixup wouldn't even be possible on a modern manufacturing line, but from the sound of it, it sounds like the folks on the assembly line in Hermosillo, who by the way are working three shifts to keep up with demand, have already been taken out to the woodshed for quality issues.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Aquineas

[hermans]

The two engines don't look the same on the outside and some parts like the CV-T would not bolt up to the 2,0 gas engine.

[Aquineas]

Okay, that's good info. But what about the parts of the engine you don't see once it's assembled: pistons, crankshafts, etc?

[hermans]

Well then, consider the two engines are assembled in two different countries.

[kuzzi]

Fouled plugs likely caused by the ICE not getting hot enough.

 

Carbon buildup happens when an engine is run intermittently or for short durations. The carbon gets burned off when the engine is really hot and exits through the exhaust or drops into the oil pan. See Italian Tune-up.

 

The ICE and its on again off again behavior will not get hot enough to get rid of this buildup. A cold engine requires a lower A/F ratio to start up as well (i.e. choke on an old motorcycle or lawnmower, more fuel per unit air). This may also be why we see the carbon buildup on the pipe tips as well.

 

hybridbear is on a road trip right now and probably using the ICE heavily at highways speeds. I would like to see how his plugs compare after his trip to others who have just been making average 30-60 mile commutes. I would venture to guess mine look pretty blackened at the moment.

Edited June 19, 2013 by kuzzi

[lolder]

The present day Atkinson cycle's don't do all four strokes in one revolution, they do it in two. The present Atkinson cycle engines are "pseudo" versions as they mimic the longer power stroke of a true mechanical Atkinson by shortening the compression stroke with late intake valve closing. This is a valid and clever way to avoid the complexity of a true Atkinson. The crankshaft is also off set from center slightly to give a more efficient geometry to the power stroke.

It is unlikely there was an engine manufacturing problem. Almost all of the early complaints were due to fall and winter cold temperatures. Look at what people are reporting now. Acdii's results are still puzzling.

[Aquineas]

I'm fixated on acdii's results because, I don't think anyone (outside of Ford) ever got a valid explanation as to why it happened, or even acknowledgement that there was potentially an issue. I'm also admittedly a bit nervous about it, because:

• My My wife's own car will be built within the next 3 weeks
• There is at least one case of someone who's taken delivery of their car in the last 45 days who's getting mileage numbers consistent with acdii's first 2013 (it was built after April 1).

While the warmer temperature point is indeed a plausible one, it would seem to me that running of the AC would offset the "warmer temperature" argument. Also, on hybridbear's trip, his worst mileage thus far has been 40mpg, which I for one would be happy with.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Aquineas

[acdii]

Fouled plugs likely caused by the ICE not getting hot enough.

 

Carbon buildup happens when an engine is run intermittently or for short durations. The carbon gets burned off when the engine is really hot and exits through the exhaust or drops into the oil pan. See Italian Tune-up.

 

The ICE and its on again off again behavior will not get hot enough to get rid of this buildup. A cold engine requires a lower A/F ratio to start up as well (i.e. choke on an old motorcycle or lawnmower, more fuel per unit air). This may also be why we see the carbon buildup on the pipe tips as well.

 

hybridbear is on a road trip right now and probably using the ICE heavily at highways speeds. I would like to see how his plugs compare after his trip to others who have just been making average 30-60 mile commutes. I would venture to guess mine look pretty blackened at the moment.

This right here was reason #1 for the carbon buildup I saw after the first set was replaced, but still did not explain the original fouling. I highly doubt it was a mechanical issue but more along the lines of a faulty computer, and I will stick to that until proven wrong, and since Ford didn't pursue it, I'm right, they are still wrong.

 

As for the first set fouling, keep in mind that at least 2/3rds of the miles driven up to that point were interstate speeds, 60-80 MPH going down and back to Florida in temps ranging from 40-75*, rain and sun. No matter what speed I set the Eco Cruise to, with adaptive on, the MPG would not go above 38, staying around 34 for the most part. In all the driving I did down there in warm weather, only once did I actually see true Hybrid MPG, and it did hit 50, but that was on roads of 40 MPH, so plenty of regen and EV. It was about 2 weeks after returning from Florida that I got the first check engine light, and the next day got a solid CEL with drivability issues, and at that point my Ranting went off the charts. It was also my second visit for poor MPG issues to the dealer.

 

It was at that point that I got the Scanguage as I want to see just what the engine was doing, and that is when I discovered how cold the engine ran. It never went above 170* when driving @55, only when it had time to heat soak sitting at a light did it actually touch 182*. Heck there was one day when I drove 5 miles before I got any heat in the car. After that I made a set of covers, that Hybridbear now has, and after installing them i was able to get heat and go into EV sooner when it was cold out, however it did nothing to help improve the gas mileage, however I do believe the heavy carbon buildup I saw after only 1000 miles on the new plugs is directly contributed by the cold running engine.

 

In comparison, the 2.5 L in the 2010 would get up to 190*+ and stay there even in city driving using mostly EV. It did not have any covers and none were needed, but the 2013 I would highly recommend them in the cold extremes.

 

I pulled my log off Fuelly for my trip,

 

 

12 12/15/12 361.2 8.89 40.6 3.149

11 12/14/12 153.3 5.97 25.7 2.999

10 12/14/12 203.4 4.49 45.3 3.159

9 12/14/12 299.5 8.17 36.7 3.159

8 12/13/12 138.8 4.78 29.0 3.159

7 12/10/12 345.0 9.55 36.1 3.219

6 12/10/12 220.7 6.46 34.2 3.159

5 12/9/12 198.2 5.20 38.1 3.199

4 12/9/12 208.4 6.95 30.0 3.299

3 12/9/12 351.3 10.09 34.8 3.190

 

 

 

The biggest issue I had with the car was its inconsistencies, the above is a great example of that, 45 one tank, 25 the next? A bit of that also had to do with the short fills the tank had, and others complained a bunch about the same thing. It wasnt just the tank fills though, the dash readout was all over the place too. The variances between the SGII and the dash were at least 1.5 MPG off, and the mileage varied as much as .5 mile. So to me the only conclusion was the computer was faulty and nothing else. I also believe this is what is causing others to have similar issues with car built during the same time frame. Still waiting for someone else to get fouled plugs, but by now doesnt look like it will happen, guess it is just a matter of the right driving conditions for it to happen, and lucky me happened to do it just right.

 

Comparing the HyTi with the old SE I had, they both handle the same, but this one is much easier to drive, it doesn't slow down greatly like the other one did, it charges the battery much quicker which means I see it climbing above the 20 mark much sooner, and right from the start I was able to get 47 driving on the same roads I drove the other one on, in the same temps too.

 

Good luck to whomever buys/bought that other car.

Edited June 19, 2013 by acdii

[hybridbear]

hybridbear is on a road trip right now and probably using the ICE heavily at highways speeds. I would like to see how his plugs compare after his trip to others who have just been making average 30-60 mile commutes. I would venture to guess mine look pretty blackened at the moment.

Great idea. I wish I had looked at them before the road trip. I will try to remember after the trip to pull the plugs and post a pic.

 

Comparing the HyTi with the old SE I had, they both handle the same, but this one is much easier to drive, it doesn't slow down greatly like the other one did, it charges the battery much quicker which means I see it climbing above the 20 mark much sooner, and right from the start I was able to get 47 driving on the same roads I drove the other one on, in the same temps too.

I'm inclined to attribute the MPG issues of some cars (your first car, MXGOLF's, nmadole's and others) to an issue with the HVB. You comment that your new HyTi charges the battery much quicker and drives more in EV which seems to confirm that theory. It still doesn't explain the fouled plugs after such few miles but that could do a lot to explain the low mileage if you had a faulty HVB

[acdii]

Great idea. I wish I had looked at them before the road trip. I will try to remember after the trip to pull the plugs and post a pic.

 

I'm inclined to attribute the MPG issues of some cars (your first car, MXGOLF's, nmadole's and others) to an issue with the HVB. You comment that your new HyTi charges the battery much quicker and drives more in EV which seems to confirm that theory. It still doesn't explain the fouled plugs after such few miles but that could do a lot to explain the low mileage if you had a faulty HVB

If the Computer was faulty, it could also cause the HVB charging issues. It may not even be programming related, but a hardware issue on the computer. If that is the cae, it would explain why their test computer didn't show any issues. I have a PC at home that has been giving me trouble, and at first thought it was the OS, but after many changes, and different things, it turned out to actually be the mother board. It was just glitchy, so I am still thinking its the computer that is behind these lemons.