Remote start advantage

[rjent]

Since this has been bumped, I will give another report. I still want to start a new thread, but I am still gathering data.

 

Observation 1:

 

If I remote start for a minimum of 5 min. I can see up to 49 MPG regularly. Keep in mind it is summer.

 

Observation 2:

It isn't 100 percent. some days I will see high 20's to low 30's and I can't find a reason ...... :headscratch: yet. :)

 

Observation 3:

The MPG will be over at least 35 most of the time. When I get the best mileage is when the battery is very high (naturally), but the battery isn't always full and is the major reason the mileage varies so much. The real question is why does the ICE charge the battery only most of the time and not all.

5

Observation 4:

It is a pretty repeatable process. I would say that I can get very positive results about 75 percent of the time. And remember this is a 1.9 mile loop. If I extend the distance to 4 miles or so, It always works.

 

Anyway, my observations so far. I still plan to do videos to prove it :)

Edited May 10, 2013 by rjent

[dalesky]

If only I could keep my job! LOL I would move too!

Well, I have to admit I did have to, and was lucky enough, to take an early retirement, at which time I was free to move. Howsoever, I love the heat, humidity is very high, but have adjusted to it, and have a convertible to help me enjoy the warm weather. Don't hate on me- at least I'm not threatening to name my new fusion! Haha

[gadgetguy]

Since this has been bumped, I will give another report. I still want to start a new thread, but I am still gathering data.

 

Observation 1:

 

If I remote start for a minimum of 5 min. I can see up to 49 MPG regularly. Keep in mind it is summer.

 

Observation 2:

It isn't 100 percent. some days I will see high 20's to low 30's and I can't find a reason ...... :headscratch: yet. :)

 

Observation 3:

The MPG will be over at least 35 most of the time. When I get the best mileage is when the battery is very high (naturally), but the battery isn't always full and is the major reason the mileage varies so much. The real question is why does the ICE charge the battery only most of the time and not all.

5

Observation 4:

It is a pretty repeatable process. I would say that I can get very positive results about 75 percent of the time. And remember this is a 1.9 mile loop. If I extend the distance to 4 miles or so, It always works.

 

Anyway, my observations so far. I still plan to do videos to prove it :)

 

I agree with your observations. I have actually reduced my run time to 5 minutes from 15 now that it is getting warmer. This morning commute wasn't too bad considering it is raining and very hard at times but at least the temps are mild in the mid 60's.

 

Great Brake Score as well!

[B25Nut]

I have always questioned the accuracy of our Trip Summaries for short trips. Mine are all over the map. Why does it display only tenths of a gallon? On a two mile trip, 1/20 of a gallon can make a big difference in computed MPG. It seems that mine takes a significant MPG hit when the HVB is charging while driving. Why would less energy be used if the charging is done at idle? Is the gas used during this warmup period really being added to the gas used during your actual driving time? As Corncob said, I wish the EBH was available eveyrwhere, but I would also like to see this option top off the charge of the HVB at the same time.

[rjent]

I have to agree that the short trip accuracy is questionable. However, I still think it holds that an engine at idle really doesn't use any more gas than an engine charging the batteries. Think of a small 2000 watt Honda generator, it will run for hours on a half gallon of gas and still produce a kilowatt. So, it seems to reason that while the ICE is warming up, in it's lovable mandatory way, it is able to charge the batteries (as my observations) on a very small amount of gas. It is also why I am trying to "prestart" by turning on the car and sit in it for a few min while the temp comes up. That fuel use will show on the trip summary as fuel used because it is included in the "run time".

Edited May 12, 2013 by rjent

[lolder]

I have to agree that the short trip accuracy is questionable. However, I still think it holds that an engine at idle really doesn't use any more gas than an engine charging the batteries. Think of a small 2000 watt Honda generator, it will run for hours on a half gallon of gas and still produce a kilowatt. So, it seems to reason that while the ICE is warming up, in it's lovable mandatory way, it is able to charge the batteries (as my observations) on a very small amount of gas. It is also why I am trying to "prestart" by turning on the car and sit in it for a few min while the temp comes up. That fuel use will show on the trip summary as fuel used because it is included in the "run time".

In hybrids, the ICE almost always is heavily loaded even when idling. The FFH generator takes as much power as it does to run the car ! That's why at 30 mph when the ICE runs the instantaneous mpg indicates ~30 mpg when the car is averaging close to 60 mpg at that speed. When parked, the ICE will not run except briefly for some checks or if you want cabin heat. The owners guide says to drive the car and it is not necessary to warm it up. Any time the ICE is running and the car is not moving, it lowers your mileage.

Edited May 12, 2013 by lolder

[milleron]

. . . when the ICE runs the instantaneous mpg indicates ~30 mpg when the car is averaging close to 60 mpg at that speed.

 

Is your reasoning that when the ICE indicates 30 mpg (mine never does, by the way; it's almost always around 20 mpg while charging), it's actually storing enough energy to run an equivalent distance in EV mode? I find that rather difficult to understand. Please explain further.

Thanks.

[hybridbear]

I have always questioned the accuracy of our Trip Summaries for short trips. Mine are all over the map. Why does it display only tenths of a gallon? On a two mile trip, 1/20 of a gallon can make a big difference in computed MPG. It seems that mine takes a significant MPG hit when the HVB is charging while driving. Why would less energy be used if the charging is done at idle? Is the gas used during this warmup period really being added to the gas used during your actual driving time? As Corncob said, I wish the EBH was available eveyrwhere, but I would also like to see this option top off the charge of the HVB at the same time.

I also don't understand why less energy would be used if charging is done at idle. I'm not doubting the results, I'm just saying that I can't understand the math behind it.

 

rjent, I'm looking forward to your video results showing this to help me understand the physics behind it. I would also think that you don't need 5 minutes of warm up because the ICE won't be running those entire 5 minutes. It will only run until it reaches the minimum temp to shut off and then it will shut off and begin to cool down. This also means that when you subsequently drive in EV mode the ICE will further cool off to the point where when you next need it to turn on while driving it will have to run extra again to heat itself back up.

 

From those comments hopefully you can see where I am struggling with understanding the math/physics behind what you say you have observed. But that's part of the scientific process. You have created a hypothesis and now are testing it. If your hypothesis is proven to be correct then based on your observations it should be easier to figure out the "why" part.

[lolder]

 

Is your reasoning that when the ICE indicates 30 mpg (mine never does, by the way; it's almost always around 20 mpg while charging), it's actually storing enough energy to run an equivalent distance in EV mode? I find that rather difficult to understand. Please explain further.

Thanks.

Well, OK 20-30 mpg. Let's say at 30 mph. if it gets 20 mpg with the ICE on for 1/2 a mile and then goes another 1/2 mile in EV, the car is averaging 40 mpg. During the time it runs, the ICE is loaded by the generator up to about twice the amount of power it would need to produce if it ran the whole distance. This process has a lot of loss in the "ICE-Generator-Charge-Discharge-Motor-Wheels" EV energy path. They do this because the ICE is less efficient at low power ( Brake Specific Fuel Consumption BSFC ). At some power demand level ( speed ), running the ICE continually via the "ICE-Wheels" path is more efficient. The gears in the transmission have very little loss. In an effort to get good EPA numbers, the 2nd Gen FFH may have made the max 62 mph speed too high. In other words, if the car ran ICE only at 55 mph instead of the EV cycling on and off, it might have gotten better mileage at that speed. That's the theory behind avoiding EV. Ford engineers will tell you the system is designed to use the ICE when significant power is required. It is not a PHEV ( except the Energi ) , all the energy comes from gas and use of the EV cycle only is used as an adjunct to make the ICE more thermodynamically efficient ( lower BSFC ). These are very clever designs and state of the art. Almost all the mileage complaints will disappear with rising temperatures.

Why does the Prius get numbers closer to the EPA numbers at highway speed ? It's aerodynamic drag is lower ( weird looking car ? ), it has less horsepower ( runs the ICE harder in a more efficient BSFC range ) and it is 20 % lighter ( ride is worse ? ). Prius is the state of the art hybrid, the FFH is preferred by many people as nicer to drive.

[gadgetguy]

Well, OK 20-30 mpg. Let's say at 30 mph. if it gets 20 mpg with the ICE on for 1/2 a mile and then goes another 1/2 mile in EV, the car is averaging 40 mpg. During the time it runs, the ICE is loaded by the generator up to about twice the amount of power it would need to produce if it ran the whole distance. This process has a lot of loss in the "ICE-Generator-Charge-Discharge-Motor-Wheels" EV energy path. They do this because the ICE is less efficient at low power ( Brake Specific Fuel Consumption BSFC ). At some power demand level ( speed ), running the ICE continually via the "ICE-Wheels" path is more efficient. The gears in the transmission have very little loss. In an effort to get good EPA numbers, the 2nd Gen FFH may have made the max 62 mph speed too high. In other words, if the car ran ICE only at 55 mph instead of the EV cycling on and off, it might have gotten better mileage at that speed. That's the theory behind avoiding EV. Ford engineers will tell you the system is designed to use the ICE when significant power is required. It is not a PHEV ( except the Energi ) , all the energy comes from gas and use of the EV cycle only is used as an adjunct to make the ICE more thermodynamically efficient ( lower BSFC ). These are very clever designs and state of the art. Almost all the mileage complaints will disappear with rising temperatures.

Why does the Prius get numbers closer to the EPA numbers at highway speed ? It's aerodynamic drag is lower ( weird looking car ? ), it has less horsepower ( runs the ICE harder in a more efficient BSFC range ) and it is 20 % lighter ( ride is worse ? ). Prius is the state of the art hybrid, the FFH is preferred by many people as nicer to drive.

 

Very well written and i appreciate the information. Some of that stuff is over my head but I definitely understand the idea and concept as a whole. Technology is amazing :banvictory:and considering what this car is capable of doing it is pretty spectacular in my book!

 

I love my FFH and would have never considered a Prius because it's ugly :fear: lol... I want to enjoy getting in my car everyday especially when I am in it for about 3000 miles a month! :shift:

Edited May 14, 2013 by gadgetguy

[lolder]

Vehicles take a certain amount of energy to operate them no matter what kind; petroleum, wood, sails, etc. With the current crop of 3000+ lb. hybrids, it is about 200-300 Watt-hours per mile at about 40-50 mph. With the ICE hybrids, since ALL of the energy comes from petroleum, the holy grail is to ALWAYS operate the ICE at it's most efficient point or not run it at all ( EV mode ). When you press on the Atkinson cycle "go" pedal, the computer delivers the power you want. If it feels the ICE is best, it starts it and runs it at almost full throttle and the lowest rpm and most advanced spark that will yield that power level. They are aiming for the oval that says 206 g/Kw-h on the first graph on this Wikipedia entry about BSFC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_specific_fuel_consumption

The left hand vertical axis is Torque or throttle opening and the bottom horizontal axis is rpm. Power is the product of the two. Essentially, these ICEs are run just shy of what would be called "bucking" when you had too much throttle in too high a gear in manual transmission days. You don't control the throttle plate opening, the system does. Even when it's running at 1100-1500 rpm, the throttle is almost wide open. There are only about three ways for further improvement; aerodynamic ( teardrop shaped cars with dynamic fender skirts down to inches from the ground like NASCAR ), hotter running engines ( higher thermodynamic efficiency limited by current metals ) and reduced weight ( limited by cost of exotic materials and their fabrication like carbon-fiber ).

Twenty years from now, the present day Prius is going to look "Boxy and heavy".

 

Something not often mentioned is the importance of keeping a steady foot on the "go" pedal. Every time you change that, as in tailgating in traffic, you make the system recalculate the requirements and that usually entails a little transient participation of the EV system. This is wasteful. If you drove the car so that there was no energy going into and out of the HVB, that's the same as Pulse and Glide ( P&G ) which yields the highest mileage. In the 1st Gen FFH, that requires feather touch management of the "go" pedal to keep the HVB charge-discharge arrows out of sight and is very demanding. It can be learned fairly quickly but it distracts you from the road.

 

All that being said, I use cruise control all the time and listen to the music in an almost silent car and even use the HVAC a lot.

Edited May 13, 2013 by lolder

[acdii]

 

Something not often mentioned is the importance of keeping a steady foot on the "go" pedal. Every time you change that, as in tailgating in traffic, you make the system recalculate the requirements and that usually entails a little transient participation of the EV system. This is wasteful. If you drove the car so that there was no energy going into and out of the HVB, that's the same as Pulse and Glide ( P&G ) which yields the highest mileage. In the 1st Gen FFH, that requires feather touch management of the "go" pedal to keep the HVB charge-discharge arrows out of sight and is very demanding. It can be learned fairly quickly but it distracts you from the road.

 

This is what I do in my 10 FFH and Flex, but found it very hard to manage in the 13 FFH. To me the pedal was over sensitive, I think a feather could have set it off. In the 10 for most of the time the HVB is sitting at 50% with very little draw or charge going , and I can keep the instant above 40, only when I encounter an incline does it discharge or need more throttle, and only a slight bit too. In the 13 it seemed I needed more and more throttle to get up inclines, and could never recoup the energy on the backside, where the 10 never had that issue. Only when I discovered that keeping a full charge and staying above 63 was I able to run like this, but most of the time traffic wasn't moving fast enough for me to do that.

Edited May 13, 2013 by acdii

[hybridbear]

Well, OK 20-30 mpg. Let's say at 30 mph. if it gets 20 mpg with the ICE on for 1/2 a mile and then goes another 1/2 mile in EV, the car is averaging 40 mpg. During the time it runs, the ICE is loaded by the generator up to about twice the amount of power it would need to produce if it ran the whole distance. This process has a lot of loss in the "ICE-Generator-Charge-Discharge-Motor-Wheels" EV energy path. They do this because the ICE is less efficient at low power ( Brake Specific Fuel Consumption BSFC ). At some power demand level ( speed ), running the ICE continually via the "ICE-Wheels" path is more efficient. The gears in the transmission have very little loss. In an effort to get good EPA numbers, the 2nd Gen FFH may have made the max 62 mph speed too high. In other words, if the car ran ICE only at 55 mph instead of the EV cycling on and off, it might have gotten better mileage at that speed. That's the theory behind avoiding EV. Ford engineers will tell you the system is designed to use the ICE when significant power is required. It is not a PHEV ( except the Energi ) , all the energy comes from gas and use of the EV cycle only is used as an adjunct to make the ICE more thermodynamically efficient ( lower BSFC ). These are very clever designs and state of the art. Almost all the mileage complaints will disappear with rising temperatures.

Why does the Prius get numbers closer to the EPA numbers at highway speed ? It's aerodynamic drag is lower ( weird looking car ? ), it has less horsepower ( runs the ICE harder in a more efficient BSFC range ) and it is 20 % lighter ( ride is worse ? ). Prius is the state of the art hybrid, the FFH is preferred by many people as nicer to drive.

Great posts, lolder. I'm curious what your thoughts are on idling the ICE before moving the car until it reaches the minimum temperature to shut off and that doing so will yield better fuel economy.

 

I agree completely that 62 MPH is too high for maximum efficiency of the car in the real world and was just done for the EPA test cycles. Interesting comment about the Prius and the smaller ICE. This seems to indicate that our cars should do better with the smaller ICE in comparison with the 1st gen FFH since our ICE should be able to run in the more efficient BSFC range more often.

[acdii]

But that doesn't appear to be the case. The 2.5 in the 10 at 65-70 MPH can get 42 and higher, heck I got over 50 at times on the Interstate doing 65. We did get 48 MPG on one tank driving to Minnesota last year. I dont think engine size really matters much though, as a big V8 can push a car along and barely breath, where a small engine with the same car would be working hard. Our 95 Grand Marquis would get 27 on the highway doing 65. I had a 2001 Crown Vic Sport that got 26 on the highway, but in normal driving could barely crack 20. Now look at the 2.0 EB in the Fusion, I have yet seen anyone get EPA highway in it, but the 3.5 EB in my Flex is getting 20, and only rated at 18 for the type of driving I do. Then you look at the Fusions with the 2.5 and they are doing quite well.

 

And I really have no clue what the hell I am trying to say here!

[lolder]

But that doesn't appear to be the case. The 2.5 in the 10 at 65-70 MPH can get 42 and higher, heck I got over 50 at times on the Interstate doing 65. We did get 48 MPG on one tank driving to Minnesota last year. I dont think engine size really matters much though, as a big V8 can push a car along and barely breath, where a small engine with the same car would be working hard. Our 95 Grand Marquis would get 27 on the highway doing 65. I had a 2001 Crown Vic Sport that got 26 on the highway, but in normal driving could barely crack 20. Now look at the 2.0 EB in the Fusion, I have yet seen anyone get EPA highway in it, but the 3.5 EB in my Flex is getting 20, and only rated at 18 for the type of driving I do. Then you look at the Fusions with the 2.5 and they are doing quite well.

 

And I really have no clue what the hell I am trying to say here!

You're both right and I think the issue about 1st and 2nd Gen. FFH highway mileage is unresolved. A V-8 loafing means that it's using a low percentage of it's power. That doesn't mean that it's producing a given horsepower with less fuel. In fact the opposite is true because of "pumping" losses at throttle openings less than full. That's one of the reasons why the Atkinson gas engine is almost as efficient as a diesel in relation to fuel energy. You'll notice in the Wikipedia article on BSFC on the graph, the low numbered areas are very near the top of the torque ( throttle opening ) scale. In the U.S., a hybrid ICE need only be big enough to go up the longest mountain grade at full throttle and not be embarrassingly slow at the end. The speed at the beginning will be higher until the HVB assist is exhausted and then you're solely on the ICE. The Chevy Volt has a "Mountain" mode that you can select prior to a big hill to get a little more charge into the HVB with the ICE which normally it doesn't do. The ICE in the Volt only maintains the HVB charge at around 30% once EV operation reaches that level. Transient acceleration EV assist and regen braking is still available there but not EV only. The Volt ICE will not "recharge" the HVB. Ford wanted to be better at this than Toyota but it costs overall economy to have the power to do that.

[lolder]

If you look at the 2 nd Gen FFH weight ( including fuel capacity) , power and drag reductions, I think it should get 4 mpg better real world mileage tilted toward slower speeds even more than the Gen 1 because of the higher EV speed. Not for running in EV but for coasting to the stops in the EPA tests. I'm a little surprised they didn't opt for a drag near the Prius but then it would look like a Prius and they didn't want that.

[lolder]

Ford is the only manufacturer that has really challenged the Toyota hybrids. The Prius now has a 1.8 L. ICE and the FFH a 2.0 L. The weight difference now is closer to 10 % than 20 % , especially when loaded. Prius still uses a NiMh which has less power than the FFH LiIon so the FFH still has an edge in total power to weight ratio. Ten years from now you'll have to call them Foyotas because they will be almost indistinguishable. I was a commercial pilot till 24 years ago and I have a tough time today telling the airliners apart because they all look alike. Aerodynamics and engine design is well understood today and when the design engineers have their say, products look alike.

[rjent]

Sorry guys, I was on a business trip :happy feet: yesterday in the fusion :happy feet: so I was not at liberty to keep up with this flurry of posts.

 

Lolder sir you are a steely eyed hybrid man. Your posts are right in line with my research as well.

 

Bear, my idea, that seems to be panning out, is that the ICE idling is just wasteful. They know that so they say not to do that, but, with the idea that the engine is running already, my theory is that it takes either no MORE gas to run the generator, or VERY LITTLE more gas to charge the batteries. After all the HVB doesn't really store that much energy, so while the engine is wastefully heating up, we charge the battery and the end result is that we have a full battery to start the 2 mile journey with instead of the ICE both pushing the car AND charging the battery. If you are going on a 10 mile commute, I am not sure how beneficial this method would be, but these short hops, I think it helps.

 

As I do this daily "grind" you can observe the synergy of the battery and the cold engine working together. The computer knows the battery is high in charge, and uses the HVB to "help" the propulsion process. I got 55 MPG this morning over the 1.9 mile loop. :)

 

BTW, 75 miles yesterday one way, 64 MPH ECO cruise all Interstate 25, didn't DO anything, but drive and listen to the music, hilly terrain returned 41.5 MPG ... :yahoo:

Edited May 14, 2013 by rjent

[lolder]

It takes a lot of gas to run the generator because it's BIG, more than ten times bigger than your old alternators. The HVB is not big but it can take a lot of energy in about 5 minutes or so. The only way you can get the hybrid to idle is to call for heat or hold the pedal down. It will be charging the HVB heavily ( as always ) until it gets full. THEN you would be wasting gas. I understand that this technique allows EV sooner on short, low speed trips. You need to gather some data with both methods accounting particularly for different temperatures, speeds and beginning and ending HVB charge as short trips yield very erratic mileage. I will still guess that even though the ICE is loaded up by the generator at "idle", it is loaded even more efficiently while driving. The Prius even goes to greater lengths about this warmup. The 2nd Gen 2004-2009 had a "thermos" to store hot engine coolant for a day or more. When you started it the next time, it released it and hastened the warmup. That was discontinued in 2010 but it now has a coolant heat exchanger in the exhaust for more rapid warmup. I don't think the FFH has that.

[keybman]

It seems that most times when I respond to a post here, someone will take the time to tell me that I don’t know what I talking about. So, let me start this response by stating that I am not, by any means, knowledgeable about cars or engines in general. And, this being my first hybrid, I am learning about my 13 FFH by reading knowledgeable others’ information, attempting to put that knowledge into practice and then experiencing first hand results. (So, in advance, I thank you for overlooking my general ignorance and not pointing it out. :) )

 

With that being said, I have gotten the impression from others on numerous occasions that I am not driving my FFH correctly. My 17.6 mile commute is 50/50 city/hwy, speeds range from 30-60MPH on city beltways (faux rolling hill highways). I have been using P&G, coasting, regen braking, EV+, etc and with fairly good results. Most trips I get between 54-56 MPG with very little effort on my part – at least now that my driving methodology is now second nature. I am enjoying driving again and loving the savings in gasoline costs, reduction of personal stress and elimination of the dread of getting into heavy traffic.

 

Most of my commutes don’t allow for cruise control because of the stop-and-go tendency, and when I have used it on other occasions, the MPG drops dramatically (high 30s – low 40s). Thus, I have been resistant to adopt the “Cruise and Forget” technique – it just doesn’t work for me from an efficiency standpoint.

 

In my observation of my car’s ICE-EV interaction, the EV starts up within 0.5 mile and operates for the majority of the trip. The ICE seems to operate 1) for my steady acceleration from stops and then later, 2) to recharge the EV, which it accomplishes after only a few seconds and then I am back to EV mode.

 

So, here is my question – if the system design is to operate in ICE and avoid EV, and my car is seemingly doing the opposite, is this doing damage in the long run? Should I be aiming to have MPG in the high30s-low40s for the good of the long term prospect of the vehicle?

 

I do plan on keeping this car for 10+ years so longevity is certainly a focus for me.

[gadgetguy]

I just want to say ...wow... I have learned :read: more about Hybrid technology in this one thread than all others combined!!! Thanks to everyone who has added to this and some of you who have taken the time to thoroughly explain the very technical details to where everyone can understand the function and concept of the inner working of this amazing car! I really enjoy reading these comments and will continue ot apply what I have read to achieve maximum benefit without sacrificing enjoyment.

 

To that I add that it seems to work best for me to pre-warm ICE and charge the battery before I drive off. I think however as the temps warm I might try not doing that to see what it yields. I have yet to achieve some of the 50+ numbers some of you get but most of my daily commute is interstate and I feel it is not safe to drive 62 when cars are flying by at 70-75 so I try to maintain a 68 to 72 mph speed and always use ECO Cruise. I can easily and consistently achieve low to mid 40's for my daily commute which I am very happy with.

 

Considering my Civic would achieve 30-32 for the same commute I'm 10+ mpg better! :headspin:

Edited May 14, 2013 by gadgetguy

[lolder]

It seems that most times when I respond to a post here, someone will take the time to tell me that I don’t know what I talking about. So, let me start this response by stating that I am not, by any means, knowledgeable about cars or engines in general. And, this being my first hybrid, I am learning about my 13 FFH by reading knowledgeable others’ information, attempting to put that knowledge into practice and then experiencing first hand results. (So, in advance, I thank you for overlooking my general ignorance and not pointing it out. :) )

 

With that being said, I have gotten the impression from others on numerous occasions that I am not driving my FFH correctly. My 17.6 mile commute is 50/50 city/hwy, speeds range from 30-60MPH on city beltways (faux rolling hill highways). I have been using P&G, coasting, regen braking, EV+, etc and with fairly good results. Most trips I get between 54-56 MPG with very little effort on my part – at least now that my driving methodology is now second nature. I am enjoying driving again and loving the savings in gasoline costs, reduction of personal stress and elimination of the dread of getting into heavy traffic.

 

Most of my commutes don’t allow for cruise control because of the stop-and-go tendency, and when I have used it on other occasions, the MPG drops dramatically (high 30s – low 40s). Thus, I have been resistant to adopt the “Cruise and Forget” technique – it just doesn’t work for me from an efficiency standpoint.

 

In my observation of my car’s ICE-EV interaction, the EV starts up within 0.5 mile and operates for the majority of the trip. The ICE seems to operate 1) for my steady acceleration from stops and then later, 2) to recharge the EV, which it accomplishes after only a few seconds and then I am back to EV mode.

 

So, here is my question – if the system design is to operate in ICE and avoid EV, and my car is seemingly doing the opposite, is this doing damage in the long run? Should I be aiming to have MPG in the high30s-low40s for the good of the long term prospect of the vehicle?

 

I do plan on keeping this car for 10+ years so longevity is certainly a focus for me.

Don't worry about what the car's doing, it's all automatic and wont hurt anything. You can't hurt them no-matter what you do. The 2013 uses EV cycling at higher speeds so you should see more of it then Gen 1 cars. The question many of us have is does this relate to better real-world mileage in the 45-60 mph range where the Gen 1 ICE runs all the time.

 

About idling, my old 4.6 L. V-8 Grand Marquis burned 0.5 gal. per hour idling. A modern non-hybrid I4 2.0 L. idling might burn less than 0.2 g./h. In contrast the FFH 2.0 L. never is run unless it is burning gas at the RATE of about 1.0 g./h ! That's enough for 12-15 hp !

[lolder]

Stopping and starting an ICE, particularly when cold, is a high source of bad emissions. That's why these things need to warm up, to meet emission regulations as they're going to stop and start hundreds or thousands of times more often. They don't want it to stop and start a lot when cold. It must be a delicate balancing act between stopping and starting while cold and having the ICE run longer just to get to closed loop electronic fuel control sooner. I think there's a lot of work still going on here. The current oxygen sensors have really big heaters in them to warmup, so much so that many have power relays for them.

There is a lot of research on different AC types, some that use waste exhaust heat. The problem is that warm hybrid engines don't produce much exhaust heat for such an AC to cool a heat soaked car. They're searching for a way to store 5-10 minutes of refrigerant in the proper state for cooling until the ICE needs to run.

[hybridbear]

You're both right and I think the issue about 1st and 2nd Gen. FFH highway mileage is unresolved. A V-8 loafing means that it's using a low percentage of it's power. That doesn't mean that it's producing a given horsepower with less fuel. In fact the opposite is true because of "pumping" losses at throttle openings less than full. That's one of the reasons why the Atkinson gas engine is almost as efficient as a diesel in relation to fuel energy. You'll notice in the Wikipedia article on BSFC on the graph, the low numbered areas are very near the top of the torque ( throttle opening ) scale. In the U.S., a hybrid ICE need only be big enough to go up the longest mountain grade at full throttle and not be embarrassingly slow at the end. The speed at the beginning will be higher until the HVB assist is exhausted and then you're solely on the ICE. The Chevy Volt has a "Mountain" mode that you can select prior to a big hill to get a little more charge into the HVB with the ICE which normally it doesn't do. The ICE in the Volt only maintains the HVB charge at around 30% once EV operation reaches that level. Transient acceleration EV assist and regen braking is still available there but not EV only. The Volt ICE will not "recharge" the HVB. Ford wanted to be better at this than Toyota but it costs overall economy to have the power to do that.

Right, what I was saying isn't that the 2.0L uses less gas at those speeds, but that is should be operating more efficiently than the 2.5L at those speeds. That means burning less gas for the same power output. What seems to happen with the 2.0L in the new Fusions (as is commented above by lolder) is that the load on them is so high when recharging the battery that they are operating efficiently, but burning more fuel than the 2.5L in the older Fusions

 

It takes a lot of gas to run the generator because it's BIG, more than ten times bigger than your old alternators. The HVB is not big but it can take a lot of energy in about 5 minutes or so. The only way you can get the hybrid to idle is to call for heat or hold the pedal down. It will be charging the HVB heavily ( as always ) until it gets full. THEN you would be wasting gas. I understand that this technique allows EV sooner on short, low speed trips. You need to gather some data with both methods accounting particularly for different temperatures, speeds and beginning and ending HVB charge as short trips yield very erratic mileage. I will still guess that even though the ICE is loaded up by the generator at "idle", it is loaded even more efficiently while driving. The Prius even goes to greater lengths about this warmup. The 2nd Gen 2004-2009 had a "thermos" to store hot engine coolant for a day or more. When you started it the next time, it released it and hastened the warmup. That was discontinued in 2010 but it now has a coolant heat exchanger in the exhaust for more rapid warmup. I don't think the FFH has that.

This is my thought too. It seems counter-intuitive to say that idling saves gas over driving with the ICE charging the battery AND powering the car. The FFH does have a coolant heat exchanger with the exhaust for faster warm-up

 

With that being said, I have gotten the impression from others on numerous occasions that I am not driving my FFH correctly. My 17.6 mile commute is 50/50 city/hwy, speeds range from 30-60MPH on city beltways (faux rolling hill highways). I have been using P&G, coasting, regen braking, EV+, etc and with fairly good results. Most trips I get between 54-56 MPG with very little effort on my part – at least now that my driving methodology is now second nature. I am enjoying driving again and loving the savings in gasoline costs, reduction of personal stress and elimination of the dread of getting into heavy traffic.

 

Most of my commutes don’t allow for cruise control because of the stop-and-go tendency, and when I have used it on other occasions, the MPG drops dramatically (high 30s – low 40s). Thus, I have been resistant to adopt the “Cruise and Forget” technique – it just doesn’t work for me from an efficiency standpoint.

 

In my observation of my car’s ICE-EV interaction, the EV starts up within 0.5 mile and operates for the majority of the trip. The ICE seems to operate 1) for my steady acceleration from stops and then later, 2) to recharge the EV, which it accomplishes after only a few seconds and then I am back to EV mode.

 

So, here is my question – if the system design is to operate in ICE and avoid EV, and my car is seemingly doing the opposite, is this doing damage in the long run? Should I be aiming to have MPG in the high30s-low40s for the good of the long term prospect of the vehicle?

 

I do plan on keeping this car for 10+ years so longevity is certainly a focus for me.

You're doing it right. Your MPGs are excellent, keep that up. You don't want to mess with what works. Setting cruise and forgetting about it works better on flat ground. On rolling hills your technique is better because you roll with the hills. Using the ICE for acceleration is the most efficient use of the ICE. We are better off accelerating using the ICE and then using EV mode for steady speed cruising. Avoiding stops is the best possible driving since it allows the car to go a long ways on very little electricity.

 

Don't worry about what the car's doing, it's all automatic and wont hurt anything. You can't hurt them no-matter what you do. The 2013 uses EV cycling at higher speeds so you should see more of it then Gen 1 cars. The question many of us have is does this relate to better real-world mileage in the 45-60 mph range where the Gen 1 ICE runs all the time.

 

About idling, my old 4.6 L. V-8 Grand Marquis burned 0.5 gal. per hour idling. A modern non-hybrid I4 2.0 L. idling might burn less than 0.2 g./h. In contrast the FFH 2.0 L. never is run unless it is burning gas at the RATE of about 1.0 g./h ! That's enough for 12-15 hp !

Very interesting...this shows how much energy is being diverted to charge the battery.

 

Stopping and starting an ICE, particularly when cold, is a high source of bad emissions. That's why these things need to warm up, to meet emission regulations as they're going to stop and start hundreds or thousands of times more often. They don't want it to stop and start a lot when cold. It must be a delicate balancing act between stopping and starting while cold and having the ICE run longer just to get to closed loop electronic fuel control sooner. I think there's a lot of work still going on here. The current oxygen sensors have really big heaters in them to warmup, so much so that many have power relays for them.

There is a lot of research on different AC types, some that use waste exhaust heat. The problem is that warm hybrid engines don't produce much exhaust heat for such an AC to cool a heat soaked car. They're searching for a way to store 5-10 minutes of refrigerant in the proper state for cooling until the ICE needs to run.

Exactly. This is why the ICE has to run for so long the first time it starts and why in the winter it will often run extra to keep itself warm. I imagine this is an area that might be improved upon in future iterations of the FFH

[lolder]

While running my 2010 FFH AC in a 94 º F. parking garage some time ago, The HVB would go from 50% to 30 % in 15 minutes. That's about 300 W-hs or a rate of 1.2 Kws. That's about 1 1/2 hp, an expected AC load. The ICE then ran for about three minutes to charge back to 50%. That's a rate of 6 Kws. With normal losses, that takes about 12 hp. from the ICE while it's running. These engines never "idle" unloaded in the old sense. The designers want all the energy produced by the ICE to be done as close to the lowest BSFC operating point as possible. You can see a lot of things have to be juggled and the eCVT system does it the best with very low losses.