What did you drive before getting your FFH?

[tombarker13ffh]

Also, I'm 26 and I've owned:

1994 Pontiac Grand Am

1993 Honda Civic

2000 Toyota Camry

2006 Ford Focus

2012 Ford Escape

1969 Boss Mustang

2012 Boss Mustang

2013 Mustang V6

2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE

 

Still own the FFH and 2012 Ford Escape.

[acdii]

Maybe you've read up on this and I'm wrong, but i don't think so. You ought to get $3,750 in tax credit no matter what you owed or were getting back. If you had a refund of $500, you'd get a new refund of $4,250 for buying the plug-in hybrid. It's not just credit toward your owed taxes, it's real money. I got a first-time homebuyer tax 'credit' in 2010 and it added $5,600 to my already refund of $2,200. Thus I got $7,800 instead of $2,200. Take your current tax bill, whether the amount is positive or negative, and add $3,750 to it.

That would be a complete rip off if they only gave you credit against your owed taxes.

Maybe this will help, it explains how the tax credit works.

 

 

A tax credit reduces the amount of money you owe the IRS right away. For example, if you earn $40,000 per year and are taxed at 10 percent, you'll owe the IRS $4,000. A tax credit of $500 will reduce the amount you owe to $3,500.

[hybridbear]

You're correct acdii, but pretty much everyone who can afford to buy a new $30k-$40k PHEV will have enough income to have paid $3500 in federal income taxes. Which means that it works out to being $3500 cash

[hybridbear]

Cool to see another young FFH owner :)

 

Also, I'm 26 and I've owned:

1994 Pontiac Grand Am

1993 Honda Civic

2000 Toyota Camry

2006 Ford Focus

2012 Ford Escape

1969 Boss Mustang

2012 Boss Mustang

2013 Mustang V6

2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE

 

Still own the FFH and 2012 Ford Escape.

[acdii]

You're correct acdii, but pretty much everyone who can afford to buy a new $30k-$40k PHEV will have enough income to have paid $3500 in federal income taxes. Which means that it works out to being $3500 cash

True in some cases. I could have afforded one, but the 3500 would have returned only about $1500 tops, I checked Turbo Tax just for kicks.

 

Anyhow, to add to my list,

 

2013 Flex Limited Titanium Ecoboost.

 

So now I have a 2010 Fusion Hybrid, and the Flex. and a sense of relief too.

 

I'll work on boxing up those covers for you and send you my email so you can send me where you want them shipped to.

[LostPuma]

'94 Ford Explorer XLT
'01 Dodge Durango

'07 Ford F150 FX4
'94 Huffy Dr. Shocks

'13 FFH :)

[tombarker13ffh]

Forgot about my 2004 Italjet Dragster 50, a 49cc made-in-Italy two-stroke scooter that went 55mph and got 75mpg. This thing was awesome! Liquid cooled, disc brakes, unique suspension and fast! Paid $1800 for it new and sold it five years later for $1500. Best scooter in the world.

 

[GrayStrider]

So, how much more would a Fusion Energi be over the regular Hybrid model considering the tax credit? Seems like the base price of the FFE was 10K plus over the base price of the FFH - you'd still have to pay that up front, right? Would you have to wait until next spring to get your credit back?

 

After reading a an article last November that compared the CMax Energi vs the regular Hybrid model, the authors felt that most people. based on the way they drive, wouldn't make back the additional cost of the Energi model in fuel savings, so they recommended the regular Hybrid model instead. I talked my husband out of waiting for the Fusion Energi as a result, and we got the FFH instead (which we both absolutely love).

[acdii]

So, how much more would a Fusion Energi be over the regular Hybrid model considering the tax credit? Seems like the base price of the FFE was 10K plus over the base price of the FFH - you'd still have to pay that up front, right? Would you have to wait until next spring to get your credit back?

 

After reading a an article last November that compared the CMax Energi vs the regular Hybrid model, the authors felt that most people. based on the way they drive, wouldn't make back the additional cost of the Energi model in fuel savings, so they recommended the regular Hybrid model instead. I talked my husband out of waiting for the Fusion Energi as a result, and we got the FFH instead (which we both absolutely love).

The Energi would only pay back if one or more of the following.

 

A. The tax credit, which is an amount taken right off the top of your income, reducing the amount you made for tax purposes, can actually give you back that amount in a refund.

B. your daily drive allows you to use the EV mode for most if not all of your trip for the day, and recharge at night, or have access to a charging station at work.

C. Gas prices go up above $6 a gallon.

D. you are one of those leaf wearing green wackos who are foaming at the mouth and think EV is the only answer.

 

If I were going from the F350 Diesel, like I did with the Prius, use the EV mode when I was close to my office where its most efficient, then yes it would pay off quickly, but if I go from a car that already gets good MPG, then no, the payoff would never be there.

[GrayStrider]

Choice B is what they stated in the article. If only getting 20 miles in EV, 1/3 of our commute to work would have to use ICE. No charging station at work, so I guess that'd mean the trip home would be in ICE. Just didn't make sense to me to buy the Energi model.

[hybridbear]

The Energi would only pay back if one or more of the following.

 

A. The tax credit, which is an amount taken right off the top of your income, reducing the amount you made for tax purposes, can actually give you back that amount in a refund.

B. your daily drive allows you to use the EV mode for most if not all of your trip for the day, and recharge at night, or have access to a charging station at work.

C. Gas prices go up above $6 a gallon.

D. you are one of those leaf wearing green wackos who are foaming at the mouth and think EV is the only answer.

 

If I were going from the F350 Diesel, like I did with the Prius, use the EV mode when I was close to my office where its most efficient, then yes it would pay off quickly, but if I go from a car that already gets good MPG, then no, the payoff would never be there.

A tax credit does not reduce your income, that's a tax deduction. A tax credit reduces your taxes owed. Based on married filing jointly that would mean that if you made $30,950 and take the standard deduction you would get the full $3750 back. A couple married filing jointly with no kids would need to make $30,950 before taxes in a year to owe $3750 in income tax. If you paid $3750 you can get $3750 back. If you only paid $3000 then you could only get $3000 back. If you are able to take more than the standard deduction then your before tax income would need to be higher to account for that. That's why they always say to consult your tax professional to see if you would get the full $3750 benefit. Most people will qualify for the full tax credit though because if you can afford to buy a new car your household income is most likely high enough that even with additional deductions for children or business expenses if you own your own business that you would still get the full $3750 back.

 

Choice B is what they stated in the article. If only getting 20 miles in EV, 1/3 of our commute to work would have to use ICE. No charging station at work, so I guess that'd mean the trip home would be in ICE. Just didn't make sense to me to buy the Energi model.

The issue with those articles is that the writers aren't smart enough to realize that there are feature differences between the Energi and the Hybrid. The C-Max Energi is at the SEL trim level. That means that you can't compare the price of a C-Max Energi SEL to a C-Max SE and talk about price difference. The Fusion Energi comes as SE or Titanium but the Fusion Energi SE is more loaded than the Fusion SE Hybrid. All FFEs have the luxury package already and MFT. Those items are add-ons for the FFH SE. So before you figure out the price difference you need to factor in the feature differences.

 

For example, for my parents looking at the C-Max Energi the Energi price is $35,440 before the tax credit, or $31,690 after the tax credit. The C-Max Hybrid (with the exact same features) is $31,075 with no tax credit. That means that the difference is $615 based on MSRP. Either car they order they would be able to pay invoice price. C-Max Energi invoice is $32,919. C-Max Hybrid invoice is $29,044. C-Max Energi after tax credit is $29,169. That's a $155 premium for the Energi. That's what makes the Energi such a great deal on the C-Max. The Fusion Energi is priced much higher in comparison with the regular Fusion.

 

GrayStrider, if you had been looking C-Max Hybrid vs C-Max Energi the Energi might have been worth it even with the long commute. For my parents the C-Max will be their city car. Now that they're both retired they rarely drive more than 20 miles in a day, but they still go places almost every day of the week. I imagine they'll be able to do at least 1500-2000 miles between filling the Energi gas tank since 2/3 to 3/4 of their driving should be from wall charging.

 

At that price my wife & I would have bought a C-Max Energi if we would've had anywhere to plug it in at our apartment and if she didn't dislike the looks of the C-Max so much

Edited April 7, 2013 by hybridbear

[B25Nut]

"....and if she didn't dislike the looks of the C-Max so much".

 

I'm at the point in my life that I don't have to drive an ugly car. The C-Max Energi could save me a significant amount of money, but I'm happier making what are really minor sacrifices in other aspects of my life so that I can be driving the best looking vehicle available for under $60K. I really don't like the looks of the C-Max. And my wife would be making fun of me every day if one was parked in our garage.

[acdii]

A tax credit does not reduce your income, that's a tax deduction. A tax credit reduces your taxes owed. Based on married filing jointly that would mean that if you made $30,950 and take the standard deduction you would get the full $3750 back. A couple married filing jointly with no kids would need to make $30,950 before taxes in a year to owe $3750 in income tax. If you paid $3750 you can get $3750 back. If you only paid $3000 then you could only get $3000 back. If you are able to take more than the standard deduction then your before tax income would need to be higher to account for that. That's why they always say to consult your tax professional to see if you would get the full $3750 benefit. Most people will qualify for the full tax credit though because if you can afford to buy a new car your household income is most likely high enough that even with additional deductions for children or business expenses if you own your own business that you would still get the full $3750 back.

Yeah, thats what i meant. I shouldnt post when half distracted with Dr Who. Taken off the top of taxes owed, not income, got them backwards, sorry. What you do need to consider though, is if you finance the entire cost of the vehicle, you still pay for that 3750, then get it back, but still are paying for it in interest. So if you buy the car, then get the tax credit next year, refinance the car with putting that 3750 back into it.

 

So had I gone and purchased a FFE, next year I would get part of my taxes back, but would still be paying for that portion. I think this makes sense, dont know, have a headache right now. When I bought th ePrius we got a tax credit too, but it did not reduce the cost of the vehicle, so we still paid the full price.

[neod192]

Yeah, thats what i meant. I shouldnt post when half distracted with Dr Who. Taken off the top of taxes owed, not income, got them backwards, sorry. What you do need to consider though, is if you finance the entire cost of the vehicle, you still pay for that 3750, then get it back, but still are paying for it in interest. So if you buy the car, then get the tax credit next year, refinance the car with putting that 3750 back into it.

 

So had I gone and purchased a FFE, next year I would get part of my taxes back, but would still be paying for that portion. I think this makes sense, dont know, have a headache right now. When I bought th ePrius we got a tax credit too, but it did not reduce the cost of the vehicle, so we still paid the full price.

Yup, it makes sense this time :) You can also just pay part of the principal instead of refinancing. The payments won't get lower and you don't start another 5 full years (if that's what you choose) - it'll just take less time to pay it off.

[djminfll]

When I first saw this post, I thought I might be the oldest one on here, but since I'm not, I'm OK giving my list:

1. 1973 Honda Civic (1st year Civic was built) - bought new for $1,999
2. 1978 VW Super Beetle - bought used from a priest
3. 1975 MG Midget
4. 1975 Mustang
5. 1980 Datsun 200SX
6. 1985 Nissan Sentra
7. 1991 Chrysler LeBaron Convertible (can you believe it needed 4 transmissions in 5 years?!?!?!)
8. 1996 Honda Accord (got stolen the 2nd week I had it)
9. 1996 Nissan Maxima
10. 1998 Mazda Millenia
11. 2003 Hyundai Tiburon GT
12. 2006 Honda Accord Coupe
13. 2007 Volvo S60 2.5T
14. 2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid

[storksb]

OK my turn to list my cars over the last 15 our so years. Most recent first.

 

2013 FFH

2008 VW GTi

2005 Nissan Murano

2007 Subaru Forester Sport

2003 Subaru Forester Turbo, Japan Spec

2000 Mitsubshi Pajero

2000 Volvo V40

2000 Ford Focus ZTS

1998 Ford Mondeo Ghia

 

There were many more before this but the order is somewhat blurred after all this time.

[hybridbear]

1. 1991 Chrysler LeBaron Convertible (can you believe it needed 4 transmissions in 5 years?!?!?!)

I can believe it. My parents had a 1989 Dodge Grand Caravan that needed 3 new transmissions. The first 2 were replaced under warranty (since they bought the 100,000 mile extended warranty) and then the fourth they paid to put a rebuilt tranny in. My parents put about 200,000 miles on that van and the tranny that lasted the longest was the rebuilt one. The others were rubbish.

Edited May 14, 2013 by hybridbear

[alpha754293]

I originally had a 2003 Chevrolet Cavalier before getting my Ford Fusion Titanium Hybrid.

 

It had around 133,000 km before I traded it in after I had smacked the bottom of the oil pan and poked a hole the size of two quarters. :( I've always thought that I would get a new car because I'd drive the old one into the ground. I just didn't think that I would do it quite so literally.

 

I did test drive the 2013 Toyota Prius and also the 2013 VW Jetta Hybrid and found critical practical problems with both before I settled on the Fusion.

 

(The problems didn't prevent the functionality of the vehicles, but they bugged me enough that prevented me from buying them.)

 

And I look at everything through the engineer's goggles. And it isn't just to knock them either because they're our competitors, but there were actual legit functional issues (I think) about them.

 

Like the VW Jetta Hybrid - the regen braking system does NOT give a constant braking force as you slow down.

 

If you push on the brake pedal JUST enough to get 100% regen, but then HELD it there, at < 5 mph, the regen braking system will "lets go" and you end up losing the braking force that the regen system gave you. So think about it - you're pulling up to a red light and when it "lets go", you go shooting forward, which forces you to slam on the brakes as you slide into the intersection. Bad. Very bad. (Test drive it. You'll know what I'm talking about.) Don't change your brake pedal position after the regen system "lets go" so you can feel the car shooting forward, then brake as needed to come to a safe and complete stop at the red light.

 

In Michigan, people roll into the intersections often enough that it's mehhh.... But if I were say in downtown Chicago and there were a group of pedestrians waiting to cross - the possibility of you hitting a few of them is quite high because of that. (Which means that you will ALWAYS have to use the actual brakes to stop you instead of maximizing the regen braking capability.)

 

So, to me, that was a HUGE safety concern.

 

It's stuff like that that stopped me from buying them.

[acdii]

We had a 2009 Camry Hybrid that occasionally would do that. My wife thought I was screwing around until it happened to her, then it was, Get RID of this damned car!

[hybridbear]

And I look at everything through the engineer's goggles. And it isn't just to knock them either because they're our competitors, but there were actual legit functional issues (I think) about them.

 

Like the VW Jetta Hybrid - the regen braking system does NOT give a constant braking force as you slow down.

 

If you push on the brake pedal JUST enough to get 100% regen, but then HELD it there, at < 5 mph, the regen braking system will "lets go" and you end up losing the braking force that the regen system gave you. So think about it - you're pulling up to a red light and when it "lets go", you go shooting forward, which forces you to slam on the brakes as you slide into the intersection. Bad. Very bad. (Test drive it. You'll know what I'm talking about.) Don't change your brake pedal position after the regen system "lets go" so you can feel the car shooting forward, then brake as needed to come to a safe and complete stop at the red light.

Very interesting. I'm still hoping to test drive a Jetta Hybrid for fun some day to see what it's like and to see if they all do this or if you just drove a defective one. The other hybrid I'm really curious to see is the new Honda Accord Hybrid that has a 2 motor hybrid system and Honda has been indicating that it will beat the 47/47/47 MPG of the FFH while having more horsepower...

 

I'm curious what you didn't like about the Prius that you considered to be a "critical practical problem". Thanks

Edited May 14, 2013 by hybridbear

[hermans]

edit

Edited May 14, 2013 by hermans

[alpha754293]

Very interesting. I'm still hoping to test drive a Jetta Hybrid for fun some day to see what it's like and to see if they all do this or if you just drove a defective one. The other hybrid I'm really curious to see is the new Honda Accord Hybrid that has a 2 motor hybrid system and Honda has been indicating that it will beat the 47/47/47 MPG of the FFH while having more horsepower...

 

I'm curious what you didn't like about the Prius that you considered to be a "critical practical problem". Thanks

 

The Prius - where the hatch breaks over and drops off in the back - the way that I sit in it meant that that breakover point runs right across my rearview mirror, blocking about 80% of the field of view (from the rearview mirror). So, the plus side is that it's reminiscent of driving a little sports car (think like 1980s Pontiac Fiero). The problem is that in Michigan, people have a really nasty habit of tailgating; which inherently run the risk of you being rearended (I've already been rear-ended once while stopped at a stop light). So being able to see where and when (if) it is coming is kinda important.

 

The rest of the vehicle was fine though.

 

in a related note though, one of the things that I like doing as an engineer is to attend the North American International Auto Show in Detroit every January and I go there not necessarily so much for the cars, but to listen to what people (the general public) have to say about them.

 

The funniest comment that I hear about the Prius - "it looks like a penis". lol..their words. Not mine. And that the styling of the car doesn't look "fun" or whatever (and having to explain to people that the shape and styling of the car is largely driven by the function as opposed to form).

 

But in terms of fuel economy, the car does work.

[alpha754293]

From is post.....

 

"If you push on the brake pedal JUST enough to get 100% regen, but then HELD it there, at < 5 mph, the regen braking system will "lets go" and you end up losing the braking force that the regen system gave you. So think about it - you're pulling up to a red light and when it "lets go", you go shooting forward, which forces you to slam on the brakes as you slide into the intersection. Bad. Very bad. (Test drive it. You'll know what I'm talking about.) Don't change your brake pedal position after the regen system "lets go" so you can feel the car shooting forward, then brake as needed to come to a safe and complete stop at the red light."

 

No no, that problem is on the VW Jetta Hybrid, not the Prius.

[alpha754293]

We had a 2009 Camry Hybrid that occasionally would do that. My wife thought I was screwing around until it happened to her, then it was, Get RID of this damned car!

 

My mom's 2010 Camry (non-hybrid) does the same thing - except for a completely totally different reason. It's because as you're slowing down and coming to a light, the transmission will keep downshifting. And normally, that's fine. Except the last like 20 feet or so, where you're dropping below 12-20 mph (20-30 km/h) and it does either a final 3-1 shift or 2-1 shift (haven't been able to identify (by feel) which it is), but it's going into 1st gear that there's a little bit of a tiny torque boost (from the torque multiplication factor of the 1st gear ratio itself) which sends the car forward as well.

 

When I test drove the car with the salesguy and my mom, the sales guy asked me "so...what do you think?" and I told him about that and he gave me some BS response about it being because of the electronic brake force distribution module (which has NOTHING to do with it) - so CLEARLY (as it is with most car salespeople) they don't have a freakin' clue. (Why, in God's name - oh why would you argue with the engineer?) lol...

 

So anyways, my mom bought the car. And now years later, my dad complains about the same thing, and sometimes my mom does too. (It's why when I am driving my mom's Camry - coming to a light, I HAVE to shift into Neutral so that I don't get thrown into the intersection (or that insodoing, I don't have to suddenly slam on the brakes). Then it can downshift all it wants, to its heart's content and it doesn't affect my vehicle's position with respect to the intersection.

 

(And it's like...dude - I pulled the Society of Automotive Engineering (SAE) papers and publications before coming here...)

 

So yeah. (The sales manager and also the sales guy that I was working with when I bought my Fusion hybrid - they were both like "oh...so you probably know wayyyy more about this than I do" - the moment that I told them that a) I'm an engineer and b) I work for Ford.

 

I'd imagine that car dealerships might not like us very much because they can't give their usual marketing/sales schpiel. But that's also why I really highly value and favour salespeople that are just so flat-out brutally honest with ya. If they aren't interested in full disclosures when you ask them something - then that should raise a flag that something fishy's going on.

[acdii]

Thats how my dealer is with me, They know I know more about the cars than they do. When I go to other dealers I just take what they say and dispose of it, not worth arguing over any of it, or asking any questions. I just get in the car, check it out, take it for a drive and thats it. When I go to my dealer we talk about everything BUT the cars. They know they dont need to sell me on anything. Heck they learned more from me on what they sell than they learned from Ford!