Climate Issues, 2013 FFH

[hybridbear]

If someone does this it would be nice to get a detailed step by step with pictures. Has Fram started making a filter for our cars yet? They often put video tutorials on their website which I have found to be perfectly accurate and very helpful in the past. I might tackle this project sometime this summer (at 15-20k miles) and I'll take lots of pictures if no one else has before then

[lolder]

 

Every breath you and your passengers exhale is at 100% relative humidity. When you have air in recirculation mode at all times and the A/C on it will cause the evaporator coil to ice up and the cooling efficiency will deminish. This frozen water will also collect any particles, mold, pollen, etc. and keep them frozen until the system is shut off. When you come back to the car you will usually see a puddle of water under the car. This is the excess water that has unfrozen and dripped out of the collection pan, this also can happen during extreme humid days, even in pass through mode. In pass through mode the air is always filtered, I don't know if this is true in recirc mode on this Fusion. Now when you restart the car the system will probably have a slug of stuff intering the car and this might make your allergies worse, unless all the air is filtered in recirc. Some cars have a sewer smell when you first turn the A/C on, this I understand is from keeping the A/C in recurlation mode and never letting the system to dry out, mold forms and gives off this rotten odor.

I keep my 2010 FFH on recirc all the time in Florida and it never ices up. The evaporator is kept above freezing. That only happened in older cars when there was a problem in the system. There is always outside air coming in in recirc mode. Water dripping from most ACs is normal and not a sign that it has frozen. If you don't keep you cabin air filter intact and clean, dirt can get on the evaporator and because it's frequently wet be an environment for mold, etc.

[hybridbear]

I don't think this has been brought up yet, but has anyone else who does NOT have the MFT touch screen have issues with their display screen not correctly displaying climate info?

 

On our car if we have the climate control off when starting the car and then turn it on the climate control info doesn't display on the screen like it is supposed to. To get the temperature settings and the fan speed to display we must either 1) push the rear window defroster button or 2) push one of the heated seat buttons. This seems to be a programming glitch in the code controlling that screen. It doesn't matter if the radio is on or off, it does this. But no all the time. Rarely it will work correctly and display the climate info as soon as the system is turned on, but that is a rarity. I need to bring this up to the dealer but I doubt they'll be able to do anything. I asked last time to make sure they're checking for any software updates and they said they do automatically when putting my VIN in OASIS

[keithsm2]

mine is starting to have a weird smell at startup from the vents........anyone else?? Im at close to 10K miles.........time for filter change already?

[acdii]

I had a weird smell in mine the other day, turned out my son needed a bath, He smelled awful.

[Gregavi]

Has anyone else had issues with the Climate system on their 2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid? It likes to come on with the fan at full power, which irritates my husband to no end.

I hate to say, but that's a pretty trivial thing to "irritate to no end". I'm happy just to have A/C! I'm not really sure how mine behaves, but if it's too high I turn it down and if it's too low I turn it up. :)

[hindsight]

If you use the fan not on Auto, then you are losing control of the temperature setting, right? Or is Auto only for fan speed and the temperature will be controlled by the system no matter if Auto or Not? The manual says: "AUTO: Press the button to turn on fully automatic operation. Select the desired temperature using the temperature control. The system automatically adjusts fan speed, air distribution, A/C operation, and outside or recirculated air, to heat or cool the vehicle to maintain the selected temperature." It is not clear to me what non-Auto operation does with all the variables, specially temperature control.

 

I adjust the terribly loud high fan speed by raising or lowering the temperature setting while it stays in Auto, but my partner takes it off the Auto setting and chooses the fan speed. Would be nice if the fan noise was suppressed even at its highest speed...must be some way of doing noise cancellation via the audio system? (Future $1000 extra option!)

[Waldo]

The Auto mode controls fan speed, temperature, vent mode, recirc mode and A/C mode. In full auto it will adjust all of them to get the best performance. If you manually override any one of those controls (like the fan speed), it will still automatically control the other 4 as best it can to get you the results it thinks you want.

[hybridbear]

Here's some goofy HVAC behavior: The Focus Electric will energize its electric heater even when the A/C is on if the cabin temp gets "too cold", and in a BEV this is a big issue because the heater eats so much range. See this blog post by a Focus Electric owner: http://goingev.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-secret-to-limiting-power.html

The FFH will also periodically blow hot air out of the vents with the HVAC set to Auto & the A/C on by circulating some hot coolant through the heater core. And larryh has commented that the Fusion Energi will energize the electric heater with the A/C on. I've also observed this in my parents' C-Max Energi.

[hybridbear]

What was the outside temp? Lot's of systems leave the AC on and mix it with heat when the overall command is for heat. This is to de-humidify. I think the 2010-12s leave the AC on into ambient temperatures in the 40's at least I usually push it off then but frequently the windows start to fog so I turn the AC on again. If your system was calling for cold and added heat, I'll have to think about that one.

The ambient temp was around 80 F at the time.

[lolder]

Even though the fan and compressor are variable speed, there might be a minimum speed for either that would produce too much cooling. I wouldn't expect warm air to come out of the vents The mixing would occur earlier. Was it a transient event? In my 2010 in hot FL weather, when I drive into a heavy rain shower which would lower the ambient from 95 to 80 in a minute, the car sometimes blows warm air for a minute as if it overshoots in correcting for the new outside temp.

[hybridbear]

Even though the fan and compressor are variable speed, there might be a minimum speed for either that would produce too much cooling. I wouldn't expect warm air to come out of the vents The mixing would occur earlier. Was it a transient event? In my 2010 in hot FL weather, when I drive into a heavy rain shower which would lower the ambient from 95 to 80 in a minute, the car sometimes blows warm air for a minute as if it overshoots in correcting for the new outside temp.

Not transient. Check out the experience described in the blog post linked above, if you didn't already. There are a lot of Focus Electric owners who have that same gripe with Ford's HVAC Auto control because in the BEV the electric heater comes on and steals range.

Edited June 2, 2014 by hybridbear

[larryh]

The Fusion Energi turns on the electric heating element when the AC is on (and the AC light is illuminated). The higher the temperature setting, the more likely the heater will be on.

 

If the temperature is set to LO, the heater does not come on. If you raise the AC temperature setting past a threshold that I have yet to determine, the heating element turns on. Then to turn it off again, you have to lower the AC temperature setting past a different threshold. This is very inefficient. You want to raise the temperature setting to reduce energy usage by the AC. But instead, the heater comes on and consumes even more energy than had you left the setting at a lower temperature. You need to monitor the energy usage of climate on the car's left display and choose a temperature setting that minimizes energy usage.

 

It was 80 F outside. The inside temperature was also 80 F. As I varied the temperature setting, the AC power ranged from 0.5 kW to 0.8 kW. The heating element power ranged from 0.0 to 1.2 kW. During the 6.5 minutes I observed the power usage of the AC and heater, the AC used 0.06 kWh of energy and the heater used 0.07 kWh of energy. The heater used more energy than the AC. Why is the car wasting energy running the heating element when its hot out?

Edited June 2, 2014 by larryh

[larryh]

Note the car is running both the AC and the heater at the same time.

[lolder]

I suspect this behavior when the ambient and interior temperatures are close is a solution to regulating the temperature better. They may not be able to run the AC at a low enough BTU rate in these circumstances. As the outside temperature increases, I would expect the heating to go to zero. These cars are tweaked for every iota of efficiency so I expect there is a reason for it. Too bad Ford is seldom forthcoming about their design philosophy.

[airbusguy]

Somewhere I read that the Auto a/c has a humidity sensor. This would explain heat and cool at the same time to dehumidify. I'll try and find the source.

[airbusguy]

Owner's guide, fuses, passenger compartment fuses, # 21 , humidity and in-car temp, hybrid

[GrayStrider]

 

Every breath you and your passengers exhale is at 100% relative humidity. When you have air in recirculation mode at all times and the A/C on it will cause the evaporator coil to ice up and the cooling efficiency will deminish. This frozen water will also collect any particles, mold, pollen, etc. and keep them frozen until the system is shut off. When you come back to the car you will usually see a puddle of water under the car. This is the excess water that has unfrozen and dripped out of the collection pan, this also can happen during extreme humid days, even in pass through mode. In pass through mode the air is always filtered, I don't know if this is true in recirc mode on this Fusion. Now when you restart the car the system will probably have a slug of stuff intering the car and this might make your allergies worse, unless all the air is filtered in recirc. Some cars have a sewer smell when you first turn the A/C on, this I understand is from keeping the A/C in recurlation mode and never letting the system to dry out, mold forms and gives off this rotten odor.

We're having this odor issue in ours. Last time we had it serviced, they did not replace the filters. Time for another trip to the dealer.

[GrayStrider]

I had a weird smell in mine the other day, turned out my son needed a bath, He smelled awful.

Lol... wish that was the problem with ours.

[Sky14FFH]

Thanks for the info guys. My wife has pretty bad allergies and I was curious about the quality of the filters (if they were HEPA quality or not). If not, I wonder if I could find a HEPA filter for these cars?

 

I'm wondering the same.

 

The Tesla S has a bioweapon defense mode. :) I wouldn't mind updating the filter to a HEPA. Once had a nice little Renault diesel clio rental in Europe years ago (49mpg HARD driving and using biodiesel) and it was equipped with a nice cabin air filter where nothing from outside got in. Was nice to have when we drove past a creepy old Czech soviet age nuke plant at one point with all this ground level steam just hovering around. Torquey little bugger - zipped up the mountains when all the petrol cars were slowing down. I wonder if the new model is just as nice.

 

"Bio-Weapon Defense Mode

Model S now features a Medical grade HEPA air filtration system, which removes at least 99.97% of particulate exhaust pollution and effectively all allergens, bacteria and other contaminants from cabin air. The bioweapon defense mode creates positive pressure inside the cabin to protect occupants"

https://www.tesla.com/models

 

As far as the A/C goes. After running the A/C when you are approaching your destination ALWAYS shut it off and run it on vent for a minute or so to blow out all the condensation. This will save you from stinky vents. (kinda suprised you guys didn't know this - must be car nubes) If you're REALLY having a problem then you need to run the heat on high for about 10 minutes to dry out and hopefully kill any mold in there. This might be hard to tolerate in the summer. I've never had this problem in one of my own cars (because I make sure I do this even with rental cars) but everyone used to know that's what you do.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Sky14FFH

[Waldo]

I'm wondering the same.

 

The Tesla S has a bioweapon defense mode. :) I wouldn't mind updating the filter to a HEPA. Once had a nice little Renault diesel clio rental in Europe years ago (49mpg HARD driving and using biodiesel) and it was equipped with a nice cabin air filter where nothing from outside got in. Was nice to have when we drove past a creepy old Czech soviet age nuke plant at one point with all this ground level steam just hovering around. Torquey little bugger - zipped up the mountains when all the petrol cars were slowing down. I wonder if the new model is just as nice.

 

"Bio-Weapon Defense Mode

Model S now features a Medical grade HEPA air filtration system, which removes at least 99.97% of particulate exhaust pollution and effectively all allergens, bacteria and other contaminants from cabin air. The bioweapon defense mode creates positive pressure inside the cabin to protect occupants"

https://www.tesla.com/models

 

As far as the A/C goes. After running the A/C when you are approaching your destination ALWAYS shut it off and run it on vent for a minute or so to blow out all the condensation. This will save you from stinky vents. (kinda suprised you guys didn't know this - must be car nubes) If you're REALLY having a problem then you need to run the heat on high for about 10 minutes to dry out and hopefully kill any mold in there. This might be hard to tolerate in the summer. I've never had this problem in one of my own cars but that's what you do.

 

A/C air is dry, non-A/C air is not dry. So how does turning off dry air and replacing it with less-dry air reduce condensation?

[Sky14FFH]

 

A/C air is dry, non-A/C air is not dry. So how does turning off dry air and replacing it with less-dry air reduce condensation?

Are you serious? Because WARM air can hold more water. It's called relative humidity. With your a/c on it cools down all the surfaces inside the ducts. Once you turn off your A/C ambient air settles in and coats all those surfaces with moisture because the thin layer of air adjacent to the cold surfaces can't carry the water. Haven't you ever taken a cold beer out of the fridge and seen the water bead all over it? Same concept. That ambient air which is WARM and HUMID condensates moisture and the mold grows on it. (you know it is called dew when it settles on grass at night). What you're doing when you turn off the cold air and blow warm air through is you're warming up or neutralizing those surfaces so that they are the same temperature as the ambient air and the tiny layer of air adjacent to them can carry as much moisture as the ambient air. Do not know how else to explain the obvious any better than that, just try it, do it every time and it will work. The only reason cold air feels "drier" than warm air is because it can't hold as much water and once the cold air meets the warm air it feels drier.

Here's a simple experiment for you. Is your kitchem faucet metal? Turn it on and run cold water through it. What does it do? Once it fogs up run hot water through it, what happens on the surface of the faucet then?

Edited July 21, 2017 by Sky14FFH

[Waldo]

You didn't say anything about WARM air, you just said turn off the A/C. You can still put out nice warm dry air with the A/C on, so that's really what you should be recommending.

 

But I've never done this and I've never had any odor problems. You'd have to run the ducting at pretty hot temperatures for a couple minutes to really bring them up to ambient level, and who in their right mind would ever want to do that? If you're running with the A/C on, it's because you want to be cold. Cranking up the heat for a few minutes would seem to defeat the point.

 

Besides if you've been running the car with the A/C on for a while, all the air inside the car is already cold, not ambient. So when you turn it off, the air inside the car has to warm up, just like the ducts and everything else. Yes I know air heats up faster, but it's not at all the same thing as pulling a cold beer out of the fridge and into a totally different environment.

 

And just because cold air can't hold as much water doesn't mean it's always fully saturated. I you have cold dry air with no water in it, it's still going to absorb more moisture than warmer air that is close to 100% saturated.

[Sky14FFH]

You didn't say anything about WARM air, you just said turn off the A/C. You can still put out nice warm dry air with the A/C on, so that's really what you should be recommending.

Because you don't need to. Just turn off the a/c and let ambient warm air (as in air not cooled by the a/c) blow out all the condensated moisture and equalize the surfaces. Do this with every car you ever use. It works.

If you have an existing stink issue because you always failed to do what everyone has known to do since the dawn of air conditioning then try running HOT air through the system to dry out any mold and in the future continue to blow non a/ced air for a few minutes before you park your car. I do this with a window a/c. This isn't rocket science.

 

"But I've never done this and I've never had any odor problems."

Then you have nothing to worry about and this conversation is moot! But some people have had this problem as indicated in this thread which is who this simple basic advice would save a lot of trouble and expense.

 

You'd have to run the ducting at pretty hot temperatures for a couple minutes to really bring them up to ambient level

No, you don't.

and who in their right mind would ever want to do that?

Are you an alien from outer space?

Cranking up the heat for a few minutes would seem to defeat the point.

You're hilarious. You only crank the heat up to try and kill the mold causing an odor. But to prevent the odor causing mold simply run it on vent for a few minutes before you approach your destination. I have found it works in less than a minute, just as I turn into my street.

 

So when you turn it off, the air inside the car has to warm up, just like the ducts and everything else.

Yep minor incovenience to save a big headache.

 

Yes I know air heats up faster, but it's not at all the same thing as pulling a cold beer out of the fridge and into a totally different environment.

Yes it is the same concept.

 

And just because cold air can't hold as much water doesn't mean it's always fully saturated

Nope, but it is once you approach the dew point or 0 degrees celsius whichever comes first. Here's a handy dandy calculator to calculate dew point http://andrew.rsmas.miami.edu/bmcnoldy/Humidity.html I use it to roughly estimate whether the humidity outside is low enough in order to reduce the humidity in my home on days when I'd rather open the windows.

 

Bro, the rest of these questions you'll have to ask your highschool science teacher. Just do what I suggest and it will work just fine.