2013 FFH Transmission noise

[gemdc]

After 3 months of searching for a low speed noise under the hood of my 2013 Fusion Hybrid, I think I finally found the source of the rattle. Jacked up both front wheels yesterday and it would reproduce the noise while at idle in Low range. I was able to force the ICE on by turning up the heater while the garage was cold. That let me listen to the engine with a long screwdriver (ear on the handle). Very much louder on the EV housing (HF35 transmission). Made the sound every time the engine caught up with the spinning front wheels.

 

This noise happens when the ICE kicks in and starts pulling. Lasts maybe a second both when the ICE starts pulling or when it dies or backs off. Sounds like rocks in a can so I had thought it was just a harmonic vibration in a plastic panel or heat shield. I even put microphones taped around the engine compartment and connected them to a laptop in the passenger seat. Recorded the buzz but never could pin it to a very specific area.

 

I took it to the dealer service dept this morning an got one of their people to ride with me and verify that he hears the noise. Set up a drop off appointment for the 25th.

 

Just wanted to post this to see if anyone else can hear this rattle in their 2013 hybrid. My 2010 did not have any such noise. Best way to test is to put it in LOW range, turn up the heater, when the ICE kicks in at less than 5 mph, just throttle on and off just above idle to make the ICE start pulling then slack off. At such low speed the noise is easy to hear. Does it in Drive around town every time the ICE pulls or backs off.

 

I wanted to check the fluid level in the HF35 transmission but could not find the fill hole. Can see the drain plug but not the fill plug. Not like the Prius pictures I have seen. No plug near the drive shaft. I did see a male Torx screw with locknut that may be some sort of adjustment but will leave that stuff alone. Anyway the thought of low tranny fluid crosses my mind and I mentioned that to the service guy.

 

Sorry for the long post but this noise is really getting annoying.

[gemdc]

Guess I am the only person with a transmission rattle. Took it in on 25 Feb for evaluation. Service department says all fluids OK and no codes. They say they need to do a "like vehicle comparison" and they won't have another Fusion Hybrid for a month. Said they can't compare it to a C-Max hybrid even though both use same engine/transmission. Anyone other than Ford service people can listen and say the noise is way not normal. Does anyone know whether there is a chain in the HF35 "transmission" like I saw in a Prius picture? This sounds like a loose cam chain in a motorcycle. Rattles when loading and unloading. I am now trying to get Ford attention through their "social media" service efforts. I can guess there are very few people that can listen to this transmission and diagnose a noise. Not like regular automatics that lots of transmission guys can find a problem easily. I have watched them disassemble an automatic transmission and just throw the parts in a cleaning basket with no worry about putting it back together in order. Bet few can do that with this hybrid and it has way fewer parts than a regular automatic.

Edited March 4, 2013 by gemdc

[acdii]

Your best bet is to find a Certified Hybrid dealer. They have the proper training to work on Hybrids, and dont need another one to compare to.

[lmp180psu]

I wonder if this is the same thing that I hear when the car is almost stopped and when i first start out from a complete stop (i am thinking that is what you mean by unloading and loading). A few rocks rattling inside of a metal can is an appropriate analogy for the noise. I am not sure if my dealer is a Hybrid certified one, so they might not be able to do much, and they don't keep hybrids in stock long either to compare. I thought about making an appt to have them check it out, but the dealer i bought from is an hour away from my house and work, so not exactly convenient. Maybe i can make a weekend appt.

[gemdc]

Imp180psu - Gee, I was really hoping no one else has heard this. I don't guess I hear it so much starting from a stop if the ICE is already running but much more when I gas it lightly from a coast to pulling or back off while it's pulling. Never in EV mode but always if ICE is running and I apply power. Always noticeable below 30 mph with light throttle. Don't hear it at 65 mph even with throttle on or off.

 

acdii - How do you know whether your dealer is Hybrid certified or not? I did see a list of dealers that are qualified to sell the Energi models and it appears my dealer is on that list.

 

Is there any easy way to find how many 2013 Fusion and C-Max hybrids have been sold?

[lmp180psu]

I notice it more in EV mode pulling away from a stop, versus it the ICE is running, since it is so quiet otherwise. I don't remember hearing it at higher speeds. I will try to have an ear out for it on my way to work later.

[acdii]

Imp180psu - Gee, I was really hoping no one else has heard this. I don't guess I hear it so much starting from a stop if the ICE is already running but much more when I gas it lightly from a coast to pulling or back off while it's pulling. Never in EV mode but always if ICE is running and I apply power. Always noticeable below 30 mph with light throttle. Don't hear it at 65 mph even with throttle on or off.

 

acdii - How do you know whether your dealer is Hybrid certified or not? I did see a list of dealers that are qualified to sell the Energi models and it appears my dealer is on that list.

 

Is there any easy way to find how many 2013 Fusion and C-Max hybrids have been sold?

They have to be certified to sell Energi models. They spend 15-20 grand to train someone in Hybrids and have a charging station installed. If yours is certified and they still need to compare, then the tech has not enough experience yet.

[shaggy314]

I am not sure if my dealer is a Hybrid certified one, so they might not be able to do much, and they don't keep hybrids in stock long either to compare. I thought about making an appt to have them check it out, but the dealer i bought from is an hour away from my house and work, so not exactly convenient. Maybe i can make a weekend appt.

The cheat way to tell: See if they have a Focus Electric on the lot... or a CMax Energi. Other way to tell is go to Ford's build and price (kinda like you did), search local inventory and select certified only and search for an Focus Electric or an Energi. To have those, the dealer has to be electric. It was much less likely last year, but now they've added over 700 more certified dealers.

 

You can always ask the service or sales manager.

Edited March 4, 2013 by shaggy314

[gemdc]

The month of March is almost up and no call from my dealer saying they have a "comparison vehicle" to help them decide whether my rattle is normal or not. Don't really expect that to happen either. Hey, if it's rolling under it's own power, it ain't broke. I will probably just have to trade for a 2014 vehicle to get rid of this noise. At another dealer of course.

 

Looking to see whether Ford sells parts (fordparts.com)) for these hybrid "transmissions" I found that only the entire unit is listed. The 2013 transaxle is listed at about $6400 without the electronics box that sits on top. Then I looked up a 2010 with the Aisin transmission (which has the electronics as part of the unit) and found it at over $8000. So, if a gear or bearing fails in one of these after warranty, we are in big money territory. Also see why Ford isn't going to want to replace one just for a noise.

 

Also, noticed in their parts image that there is a pretty conventional clutch plate between the ICE and the tranny. Looks to have those little springs that take the shock out of clutch engagement pretty much like a 1950 Ford.

 

Wonder what engages the ICE clutch? Maybe torque or engine speed? It doesn't look electrical. My noise could be related to engagement / release of that clutch plate. Sounds off when the ICE tries to move the vehicle and when the ICE drops back to let the car coast. The clutch plate is only $138 but would be a chore to change out. I have done worse jobs. Like putting in a new clutch and pressure plate in a 1988 Nissan Sentra. Well, maybe not less work but would at least be a lot cleaner work.

 

Anyway, just curious if anyone knows details about the HF35 transmission as yet. Bet there are veeerrry few Ford service departments that have opened one of these and also very few that have even replaced one.

Edited March 26, 2013 by gemdc

[acdii]

And now you know why I got an extended warranty on my 10! Dash goes out, warranty covered, tranny goes out, REALLY covered! The only thing I can suggest is to find another EV certified dealership.

[gemdc]

I think it is time I go to another dealership for a second opinion. It is obvious my guys aren't interested in working on a vehicle that moves under its own power. Will probably be tough to get anyone else that would want to "get involved" so to speak. Considering the $6400 retail price of the transmission unit it is easy to see why they want to wait until I give up. At least I can drive my Honda Odyssey to another dealer and say I'm looking for something a bit more fuel efficient and try to drive another Hybrid. I know they don't make my sound already so wouldn't help me to prove it. Like acdii, just trade it. My dealer is "EV certified".

[gemdc]

Decided to give up the hunt for this rattle. When the car is warmed up even I have to work hard to hear it. Still think there is a defect somewhere but it isn't worth the hassle to find it. Doesn't seem to be getting worse with time and miles so may as well enjoy all the neat computerized bells and whistles. Really do like the adaptive cruise in eco mode. Wish I had waited a few weeks to get one that gets the good fuel mileage. Just added another tank at 38.5 mpg. Build date 10/30/12.

[acdii]

Well 38.5 is better than what I was getting, who knows, maybe in a year of two your might actually get mid 40's!

 

Just kidding hope it gets resolved soon.

[rico567]

I'm inferring this transmission is the CVT, since that's the only one available in the FFH. Is there any service interval on the transmission, oil change or ?

[lolder]

I'm inferring this transmission is the CVT, since that's the only one available in the FFH. Is there any service interval on the transmission, oil change or ?

No, it's a gear box and requires no service unless it runs out on the garage floor.

[hybridbear]

This sounds a lot like the cracking noise we've discussed in other threads

[gemdc]

I just can't relate my noise to those discussed in the "cracking/popping" thread. Mine absolutely will not make a noise in EV mode. Only when the ICE starts up and starts to pull, when the ICE is already running and you apply or back off the throttle. 5 mph is the best speed to listen to mine as I push and let off the throttle (I get the ICE to run more consistently in LOW range with the engine cold and the heat turned up). Much louder when the engine is cold. Still does it when warm but at half the volume. Sounds like gear rattle or a slapping chain. No chain in this CVT transmission so far as I can determine. I am learning to ignore it as neither of the 2 dealers thought the sound was a problem. Not getting any louder. Actually at 4800 miles it sounds the same as it did at 100 miles. Not happy about the sound but not worth fretting over. I will just trade it for a 2014 MKZ or another Fusion. May not be another hybrid if these problems keep persisting.

[hybridbear]

I just can't relate my noise to those discussed in the "cracking/popping" thread. Mine absolutely will not make a noise in EV mode. Only when the ICE starts up and starts to pull, when the ICE is already running and you apply or back off the throttle. 5 mph is the best speed to listen to mine as I push and let off the throttle (I get the ICE to run more consistently in LOW range with the engine cold and the heat turned up). Much louder when the engine is cold. Still does it when warm but at half the volume. Sounds like gear rattle or a slapping chain. No chain in this CVT transmission so far as I can determine. I am learning to ignore it as neither of the 2 dealers thought the sound was a problem. Not getting any louder. Actually at 4800 miles it sounds the same as it did at 100 miles. Not happy about the sound but not worth fretting over. I will just trade it for a 2014 MKZ or another Fusion. May not be another hybrid if these problems keep persisting.

Interesting. What has the second dealer said about this? Does Oklahoma have a lemon law provision? In MN if there are 3 failed attempts to fix the same problem the car is considered a lemon and eligible for lemon law buyback/replacement

[gemdc]

The second dealer didn't really want to step into this problem. He did take my written description and said he would check Ford's database of symptoms and see if he could find other similar noises. He told of another noise one of his fleet purchasers had complained about in several of his 2013 hybrids. They had a meeting and drive test with a Ford regional person and the Ford rep concluded the noise was within acceptable limits and not a warranty item. I am sure that if I pursued my noise that I would get the same conclusion. I am now planning on holding out and trade for a 2014. Mine is not one of the super fuel mileage vehicles either. Don't think I will ever have a 40 mpg tank on an Interstate trip. My last trip tank was 34.8 mpg when I had a 30 mph windy day. I expect about 38 at 68 mph with no wind.

[Eds2014FFH]

I have an engine rattle that sound very similar to the one mentioned here. Mines a 2014 with nearly 50,000 miles on it and it been doing it almost since it was new. Doesn't seem to be getting any worse?

[FordService]

I have an engine rattle that sound very similar to the one mentioned here. Mines a 2014 with nearly 50,000 miles on it and it been doing it almost since it was new. Doesn't seem to be getting any worse?

Hi Eds2014FFH,

 

Have you had a chance to visit your dealer about the rattle? They're a great first step towards a solution.

 

Meagan