Toyota Camry Hybrid vs FFH

[B25Nut]

Back in December I checked out the Toyota Nation site where they had started a thread on TCH vs FFH. Someone requested imput from a 2013 FFH owner, so I put my 2 cents in while trying to be repectful and impartial. Boy, did I get attacked! I was called a Troll and Fanboy and asked to go away. They even ate one of their own, a 2012 TCH owner that pointed out some areas where the FFH could possibly be better. One post stated the FFH looked like a beached whale.

They are now on their third thread on the subject http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/105-camry-hybrid/447305-2013-ford-fusion-hybrid-vs-2012-toyota-camry-hybrid-3.html

FusionTX made a great post over the weekend (thank you TX):

"There are many Toyota hybrid owners looking at Ford's offerings. I am one. I own a 2007 TCH and it has been a great car to date. However, to me the Fusion Hybrid offers so many more options than the Camry, and it's not a plain Jane car. It looks amazing. Regardless of how good my Camry has been, I feel the car has digressed in some ways. When I bought, you had a single leather color. Now you have a tri color seat, part of which is suede. Little things like that have made me move on. I'm sure it's still a high quality car, but it's no longer what I crave. I did consider the Avalon hybrid. Very nice interior, but in the end, the value in the Fusion, and its looks, made me take a chance on Ford.

 

We should all wish Ford success. Even if you decided on a Toyota over a Ford, it's no reason for ill will on Ford. If both have successful offerings, we all win."

 

A new poster, who ended up spending the extra money and getting the 2013 Avalon Hybrid, appeared today and makes some very good points.

 

This probably doesn't have to be said, but I sure we'll show respect here to any TCH owners that want to post.

[acdii]

yeah, dont get me started on the 2009 TCH we had. The 2010 Fusion was hands down a better car, both the Sport and the Hybrid. My wife and I hated that Camry. My horse didnt even like it, he took a bite out of it.

[fusionTX]

Back in December I checked out the Toyota Nation site where they had started a thread on TCH vs FFH. Someone requested imput from a 2013 FFH owner, so I put my 2 cents in while trying to be repectful and impartial. Boy, did I get attacked! I was called a Troll and Fanboy and asked to go away. They even ate one of their own, a 2012 TCH owner that pointed out some areas where the FFH could possibly be better. One post stated the FFH looked like a beached whale.

They are now on their third thread on the subject http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/105-camry-hybrid/447305-2013-ford-fusion-hybrid-vs-2012-toyota-camry-hybrid-3.html

FusionTX made a great post over the weekend (thank you TX):

"There are many Toyota hybrid owners looking at Ford's offerings. I am one. I own a 2007 TCH and it has been a great car to date. However, to me the Fusion Hybrid offers so many more options than the Camry, and it's not a plain Jane car. It looks amazing. Regardless of how good my Camry has been, I feel the car has digressed in some ways. When I bought, you had a single leather color. Now you have a tri color seat, part of which is suede. Little things like that have made me move on. I'm sure it's still a high quality car, but it's no longer what I crave. I did consider the Avalon hybrid. Very nice interior, but in the end, the value in the Fusion, and its looks, made me take a chance on Ford.

 

We should all wish Ford success. Even if you decided on a Toyota over a Ford, it's no reason for ill will on Ford. If both have successful offerings, we all win."

 

A new poster, who ended up spending the extra money and getting the 2013 Avalon Hybrid, appeared today and makes some very good points.

 

This probably doesn't have to be said, but I sure we'll show respect here to any TCH owners that want to post.

You are welcome B25Nut. Some people seem to have trouble objectively comparing their "recently purchased" car to the new competitor on the block. Something about putting down a competitior makes them feel better about their choice. And they feed this negativity to reassure themselves. Kind of childish, if you ask me. That's my guess anyway.

[B25Nut]

I know that one of the best feelings in life is when you know you've made the right choice. It's human nature to want to hang onto that feeling for as long as you can. That affects most people's objectivity and is what I witnessed at Toyota Nation. As I mentioned to them, TCH owners haven't made a bad choice, but there is currently, very likely, a better choice for the majority of drivers.

[acdii]

I dont know which are worse, Toyota Fanboys, or Prius pious owners.

[B25Nut]

For those who haven't seen it in the News thread, Ford has had record hybrid sales:

 

http://www.dailyfinance.com/rtn/pr/ford-achieves-all-time-high-hybrid-share-and-toyota-slides-as-fusion-hybrid-closes-in-on-another-sales-record/rfid637282266/?channel=pf

[jeff_h]

I dont know which are worse, Toyota Fanboys, or Prius pious owners.

 

I saw the South Park episode, I say the Prius ones.

[GreenAussie]

Nice post B25Nut, Great quote! ;)

[GrySql]

there is currently, very likely, a better choice for the majority of drivers.

Park 'em side by side, walk around them both, get in and feel the seats and look at the ergonomics.

An objective, non brand bias individual would have a hard time coming to the conclusion that the current TCH is the more appealing and modern car, all without even starting it up.

I'm a first time hybrid owner and did not buy this car to attain some moral superiority and stick my nose in the air at other drivers, nor to drive in the fast lane at the speed limit.

I needed a five passenger car and looked at other cars before I bought this. Frankly, I was not going to get a hybrid until I saw and read about this car.

 

Okay, it was over hyped by Ford regarding the 'EPA' MPG, mine has a 37.4 average mpg - average, not high and not low but average.

Think about it, the Fiat 500 gets lower mpg's than this vehicle.

I get trips of outstanding 50 mpg's and at other time it's 'only' 33 mpg going up a long hill - when it is fully broken in I'll expect a little more.

I drive it pretty normal, no longer baby it most of the time, I am happy with the results.

It is fun to drive and it has made my life easier, I am very happy I chose to buy it.

 

If you want to get 50mpg, try one of these. :)

While you are there, look at some of the other cars in our history.

Edited February 3, 2013 by GrySql

[B25Nut]

G.S. - You have expressed my exact feelings in everything you said. After I test drove the TCH, I parked it next to my FFH. The Toyota saleman was young and had been on the job for less than a month. He came to the same conclusion as you did, G.S, and actually said "maybe I should apply for a job at the Ford dealership". You should have seen his face when he sat in the driver's seat of the Fusion. It was probably the same one he would have sitting in a Corvette.

[GrySql]

We just stepped out of the FFH after another high speed 200 miler across the entire Los Angeles basin and back, we were relaxed and chatting as we pulled in the driveway.

Just another nice day in the car. Count me in.

 

I gotta name this car..... :idea:

[acdii]

No DONT name it! I made that mistake when I first got it, and look what happened! Get that thought out of your head! :)

 

 

I drove to Florida and back from IL, and same thing here, the car does ride nice, it also handles snow very well, had 5" on the roads today and it pulled nicely, and this is what is REALLY irking me! I like this car, but the poor MPG just drives me crazy!

 

Dont name your car! Wait a year first, Just to be SURE! :D

[hybridbear]

G.S. - You have expressed my exact feelings in everything you said. After I test drove the TCH, I parked it next to my FFH. The Toyota saleman was young and had been on the job for less than a month. He came to the same conclusion as you did, G.S, and actually said "maybe I should apply for a job at the Ford dealership". You should have seen his face when he sat in the driver's seat of the Fusion. It was probably the same one he would have sitting in a Corvette.

 

Hahaha :hysterical: I love it! We did an overnight test drive on FFH before buying and then went in our other car to pick up a TCH to test drive. We then parked them next to each other at home and there is no comparison. The 2012 TCH isn't as ugly as the older ones, but it's hideous next to the FFH.

 

Park 'em side by side, walk around them both, get in and feel the seats and look at the ergonomics.

An objective, non brand bias individual would have a hard time coming to the conclusion that the current TCH is the more appealing and modern car, all without even starting it up.

I'm a first time hybrid owner and did not buy this car to attain some moral superiority and stick my nose in the air at other drivers, nor to drive in the fast lane at the speed limit.

I needed a five passenger car and looked at other cars before I bought this. Frankly, I was not going to get a hybrid until I saw and read about this car.

 

A big reason why we chose the FFH was the ergonomics. The FFH is so much more comfortable. The seats are more supportive, the door panels and center console are padded, not hard plastic like in the TCH, and the center arm rest is softer too. The FFH is definitely more appealing.

[acdii]

The one thing you cant knock Toyota on is the fact that what they state as Fuel economy is pretty much what you will get in them, if not better. The 09 was rated at 34 and we got 38 in it. The car itself was a POS, even my horse didnt like it, he reached out one day and bit it.

[fusionTX]

Ac, I don't know what was wrong with your Camry, but mine has never given me a problem. Well, the water pump had to be replaced, but other than that, no problems. It is fully loaded and quite comfortable for our drives to Florida. It drives very well and has great pickup. My last tank , which I just filled today, was 40 MPG. I went 560 miles and still had two gallons to play with. And it's a 2007.

 

I am ordering a Fusion, not because The Camry did anything wrong, but because it's a bit ordinary when compared to all you can get in the Fusion. And I'd like to support Ford, even if they are made in Mexico.

[hybridbear]

And I'd like to support Ford, even if they are made in Mexico.

 

I support the fact that the car is made in Mexico...this is not an economics forum, but why not outsource the manufacturing, most Americans don't want those jobs anyway. The American economy has shifted to a knowledge economy. I'm happier buying a Ford because I know that the design and R&D were at least mostly done in the US. Those are the jobs that we don't want to lose to offshoring, but why not send the manufacturing jobs outside the borders of the US. Doing so gets a lower cost product to consumers while keeping the higher paying jobs in the US. At least that's my thought...

[acdii]

Ac, I don't know what was wrong with your Camry, but mine has never given me a problem. Well, the water pump had to be replaced, but other than that, no problems. It is fully loaded and quite comfortable for our drives to Florida. It drives very well and has great pickup. My last tank , which I just filled today, was 40 MPG. I went 560 miles and still had two gallons to play with. And it's a 2007.

 

I am ordering a Fusion, not because The Camry did anything wrong, but because it's a bit ordinary when compared to all you can get in the Fusion. And I'd like to support Ford, even if they are made in Mexico.

The one I had was not the higher end one with leather and nav, but the basic one with cloth. The material was very thin, when I pressed my hand on the middle front of the seat I could feel the springs. The Sunroof would stick and would not close at times. It was noisy, and the dash rattled. My biggest beef was the center stack lighting, it couldnt be dimmed or shut off, and on dark nights when its foggy out, I had to turn the entire dash off to be able to see. It had a soft spongy ride, and the regen brakes would cut out after about 7 highway miles while slowing to a stop, leaving us feeling like the car surged forward and we hit the brakes harder causing the car to stop much faster throwing us forward. Very unnerving.

[B25Nut]

A TCH owner posted this on the TN site:

"Now you're making me feel even more buyer's remorse. I really liked the FFH but in the end, I chose the TCH because of proven technology and because the FFH's fuel economy ratings turned out to not be based in the real world. I'm not at all saying that the TCH is a bad car but I just don't feel a connection to it that I have with other cars."

I think most of us here feel an emotional connection with our FFH. The vast majority of TCH owners don't get that.

[acdii]

Agreed. As good as the Avalon, but a whole lot less expensive. The TCH just doesn't compare, it is a much nicer car than it was in 09, but cant hold a candle to the new Fusion.

[djminfll]

I also don't understand the bitterness between brand fanatics. There is room for all of the different models, everyone wants something different in his/her own vehicles, and we should buy what most appeals to us. My dad drives a Prius, and I personally don't care for it, but he absolutely LOVES it. And even he admitted that my FFH was amazing.

The reasons I chose the FFH over the TCH is because:

1. Toyota does not offer the luxury options like BLIS, Adaptive Cruise Control, Lane Departure, etc.

2. TCH interior materials do not feel to me to be of the same quality as the FFH, especially the horrible faux wood on the console.

3. I see hundreds of Camrys every single day, both Hybrid and ICE. I like to have a vehicle that everyone doesn't have.

4. When I drove the TCH, the cutover between EV and ICE was very evident; the engine seemed to surge between formats. The cutover in the FFH is practically imperceptible (unless the windows are open and the audible running of the gas engine is audible.)

5. The Ford dealer pointed out the positive points of the Fusion to try to sell it to me, while the Toyota dealer criticized the Fusion.

To anyone who purchased the Camry, I wish you good luck and hope you are happy with your choice. For me, the Fusion was the only choice.

[acdii]

Camry does have BLIS. They dont have the other drivers assist features or ACC though. However, the Camry is easy to drive and does get its EPA numbers right off the lot, unlike the Fords. Back in 09 though, the Camry was junk, I had one, and could not wait to get rid of it, then Ford came out with the Fusion and I was sold on it. However if Ford did not make the new Fusion, the new 2013 Camry is better than the older Fusion in some areas, equal in others. It will be easier to get over EPA than the older Fusion is. If I can hit 41.8 in a 30 minute test drive mixed city highway up hills and such, then getting 47 in it during the summer would be easy.

 

If the Camry did have ACC, then I would have traded off the Fusion weeks ago, but I didnt want to give up the extra options that the Ford has that I really like about the car. The Camry is priced about the same as the Fusion when you take away the options the Camry doesnt have.

 

However, with that being said, I am glad I didn't, it would be like going backwards, the Fusion is a sharp looking car, handles really well, and is comfortable. It just needs a better stereo, and Will be much happier with it.

[fusionTX]

I'll post the same thing I did in the Camry forum.

 

Camrys are always a safe and reliable choice. That's why they are so popular, because while not the most exciting car, they deliver in most categories. The new Fusion Hybrid sets itself apart from the pack in looks and available technology, all at a reasonable price. Ford appears to have a real winner this year. If in time it proves to be as good as it appears, the whole mid-size car segment will benefit and we should see Toyota and other makes upping the ante, just as Ford did this year.

[fusionTX]

I also don't understand the bitterness between brand fanatics. There is room for all of the different models, everyone wants something different in his/her own vehicles, and we should buy what most appeals to us. My dad drives a Prius, and I personally don't care for it, but he absolutely LOVES it. And even he admitted that my FFH was amazing.

The reasons I chose the FFH over the TCH is because:

1. Toyota does not offer the luxury options like BLIS, Adaptive Cruise Control, Lane Departure, etc.

2. TCH interior materials do not feel to me to be of the same quality as the FFH, especially the horrible faux wood on the console.

3. I see hundreds of Camrys every single day, both Hybrid and ICE. I like to have a vehicle that everyone doesn't have.

4. When I drove the TCH, the cutover between EV and ICE was very evident; the engine seemed to surge between formats. The cutover in the FFH is practically imperceptible (unless the windows are open and the audible running of the gas engine is audible.)

5. The Ford dealer pointed out the positive points of the Fusion to try to sell it to me, while the Toyota dealer criticized the Fusion.

To anyone who purchased the Camry, I wish you good luck and hope you are happy with your choice. For me, the Fusion was the only choice.

I agree with everything you said except for 4. I own the original Camry Hybrid (2007). The EV to ICE transition is flawless. Of course, I can tell, but it's pretty close to imperceptible. I think Toyota and Ford both do a good job here.

 

My Camry has been the best car I have ever owned and it is still going strong. But after seven years with a Camry, the new models seem kind of stuck in the same mold. In fact the interior seems worse IMO. The leather seats are tri-color, which I do not like, and have a suede component, which I imagine is not very practical. i have high hopes for my Fusion and just hope it proves as reliable as my Camry has.

[hybridbear]

A TCH owner posted this on the TN site:

"Now you're making me feel even more buyer's remorse. I really liked the FFH but in the end, I chose the TCH because of proven technology and because the FFH's fuel economy ratings turned out to not be based in the real world. I'm not at all saying that the TCH is a bad car but I just don't feel a connection to it that I have with other cars."

I think most of us here feel an emotional connection with our FFH. The vast majority of TCH owners don't get that.

 

I agree. I really enjoy being in the FFH, I love driving it. My first car was a 1998 Chevy Lumina (junk), my next car was a 2000 Chrysler LHS (luxurious & huge, like the Titanic, but not really a fun car to drive), from there I had 3 Saabs. A 2002 Saab 9-3 2.0T, a 2001 9-5 Aero and a 2003 9-5 Aero. The Saabs were all drivers cars. In all three I really enjoyed cruising. If only they weren't so unreliable and not fuel efficient and we might have kept each of them for more than a couple years. Like the Saabs I find the new FFH to be a drivers car, a car that is enjoyable to drive and evokes that connection to the driver.

 

I can't wait for spring and warm weather to go and cruise around with my wife some sunny evening with the windows down and enjoying the silence of driving in EV mode!

 

I also don't understand the bitterness between brand fanatics. There is room for all of the different models, everyone wants something different in his/her own vehicles, and we should buy what most appeals to us. My dad drives a Prius, and I personally don't care for it, but he absolutely LOVES it. And even he admitted that my FFH was amazing.

The reasons I chose the FFH over the TCH is because:

2. TCH interior materials do not feel to me to be of the same quality as the FFH, especially the horrible faux wood on the console.

3. I see hundreds of Camrys every single day, both Hybrid and ICE. I like to have a vehicle that everyone doesn't have.

4. When I drove the TCH, the cutover between EV and ICE was very evident; the engine seemed to surge between formats. The cutover in the FFH is practically imperceptible (unless the windows are open and the audible running of the gas engine is audible.)

5. The Ford dealer pointed out the positive points of the Fusion to try to sell it to me, while the Toyota dealer criticized the Fusion.

 

2-5 also apply to us. The Camry's interior is much lower quality than the Fusion and the ICE/EV transition is not as good. I would add that the regenerative braking in the Camry is also not as well refined.

 

The Toyota/Ford dealer comment is another one too. When I went to the Toyota dealer and told the salesman that we were also looking at the Fusion Hybrid he immediately started bashing Ford and the FFH. He even went so far as to print out these sheets that Toyota has prepared to show how the TCH is superior. Unfortunately all of Toyota's documents were about how the TCH is superior to the 2012 FFH, a fact I would never have disputed. When I told him that he was bashing the wrong car he didn't seem to care and went on and on about how the FFH is worse. So I took the position of defending the FFH and telling him all the ways that the TCH is worse. He finally got the point and apologized at the end.

 

In contrast, the Ford dealer never said anything negative about the Camry. When we told the salesman that we were deciding between the TCH and the FFH he didn't turn negative. We even told him about some of the areas that we found the TCH to be superior to the Ford, which he acknowledged. His attitude was much better than the attitude at multiple Toyota dealers I talked to. Every Toyota dealer I had visited (3 different dealers in the area) all immediately took to bashing the FFH when it was mentioned. Sometimes even before I mentioned other cars we were considering they started bashing the Hyundai Sonata Hybrid, the FFH, etc without prompting. That did not leave a good impression.

 

I'll post the same thing I did in the Camry forum.

 

Camrys are always a safe and reliable choice. That's why they are so popular, because while not the most exciting car, they deliver in most categories. The new Fusion Hybrid sets itself apart from the pack in looks and available technology, all at a reasonable price. Ford appears to have a real winner this year. If in time it proves to be as good as it appears, the whole mid-size car segment will benefit and we should see Toyota and other makes upping the ante, just as Ford did this year.

 

I think Toyota will come back soon with some major improvements to the Camry, especially if their sales fall off in 2013 because of the new Ford hybrids. Reportedly the next gen Prius will get 75 MPG and have an AWD option. If that proves to be true I think we'll see major improvements from Ford in response...this is one of the benefits of capitalism...it yields competition, which benefits consumers

[acdii]

The Toyota/Ford dealer comment is another one too. When I went to the Toyota dealer and told the salesman that we were also looking at the Fusion Hybrid he immediately started bashing Ford and the FFH. He even went so far as to print out these sheets that Toyota has prepared to show how the TCH is superior. Unfortunately all of Toyota's documents were about how the TCH is superior to the 2012 FFH, a fact I would never have disputed. When I told him that he was bashing the wrong car he didn't seem to care and went on and on about how the FFH is worse. So I took the position of defending the FFH and telling him all the ways that the TCH is worse. He finally got the point and apologized at the end.

The Toyota dealer I went to didn't bash Ford when he had a customer deciding between the Cmax and the Prius. He did however explain that if you are looking to get good gas mileage, you wont get it in the Ford, but does acknowledge the fact the Fords are much better in the interior, power and handling department. He likes the Cmax and Fusions, but he has to be truthful with customers, they dont get as good gas mileage as the Toyotas do. When I talked with him about the differences between the Fusion and Camry, he was right up on with what Ford has to offer and pointed out what the Camry has over the Ford in several areas. On the SE, the Camry has a better stereo in the XLE non JBL. Has a better navigation unit, has Pandora, iHeart, and a few others that MFT does not. The 2013 is a much nicer car than the 2009 I had, its not as nice as the Fusion, it doesn't handle as well as the Fusion, but does handle better than the 09. It does get better MPG right off the lot than the Fusion does too, so even if it doesn't have Adaptive cruise option, or lane keeping, or auto dim headlights, it is still a very strong competitor to the Fusion. The fact it has a proven reliability record, and its record of hitting EPA numbers is what leads a lot of people to purchase the TCH over the FFH.

 

IOW, the Toyota dealer I went to doesn't need to bash Ford to sell the Prius/Camry hybrids, they just point out the true facts and let the customer decide which one they would rather have. It's these facts that can lead more people over to Toyota than to try a Ford, and unless Ford can address the unachievable EPA claims, they will lose sales to Toyota. Lets face it, if a buyer is looking for a sedan that gets good gas mileage, he/she will test that particular claim right off the bat, and if they can hit that mark on a test drive in one car, but not the other, which one will be more likely purchased? When I test drove the Cmax, and two Fusions none came close to the EPA claims, yet when I test drove both a Camry XLE Hybrid and an Avalon Hybrid, I hit the EPA marks in both. That right there is where Ford will have problems. All the flash and bling and toys in the world wont help when you advertise one thing, and cant deliver on it, and that is the reason people will be looking at the Hybrids in the first place.