Toyota Camry Hybrid vs FFH

[hybridbear]

The Toyota dealer I went to didn't bash Ford when he had a customer deciding between the Cmax and the Prius. He did however explain that if you are looking to get good gas mileage, you wont get it in the Ford, but does acknowledge the fact the Fords are much better in the interior, power and handling department. He likes the Cmax and Fusions, but he has to be truthful with customers, they dont get as good gas mileage as the Toyotas do. When I talked with him about the differences between the Fusion and Camry, he was right up on with what Ford has to offer and pointed out what the Camry has over the Ford in several areas. On the SE, the Camry has a better stereo in the XLE non JBL. Has a better navigation unit, has Pandora, iHeart, and a few others that MFT does not. The 2013 is a much nicer car than the 2009 I had, its not as nice as the Fusion, it doesn't handle as well as the Fusion, but does handle better than the 09. It does get better MPG right off the lot than the Fusion does too, so even if it doesn't have Adaptive cruise option, or lane keeping, or auto dim headlights, it is still a very strong competitor to the Fusion. The fact it has a proven reliability record, and its record of hitting EPA numbers is what leads a lot of people to purchase the TCH over the FFH.

 

IOW, the Toyota dealer I went to doesn't need to bash Ford to sell the Prius/Camry hybrids, they just point out the true facts and let the customer decide which one they would rather have. It's these facts that can lead more people over to Toyota than to try a Ford, and unless Ford can address the unachievable EPA claims, they will lose sales to Toyota. Lets face it, if a buyer is looking for a sedan that gets good gas mileage, he/she will test that particular claim right off the bat, and if they can hit that mark on a test drive in one car, but not the other, which one will be more likely purchased? When I test drove the Cmax, and two Fusions none came close to the EPA claims, yet when I test drove both a Camry XLE Hybrid and an Avalon Hybrid, I hit the EPA marks in both. That right there is where Ford will have problems. All the flash and bling and toys in the world wont help when you advertise one thing, and cant deliver on it, and that is the reason people will be looking at the Hybrids in the first place.

 

You hit on some very good points. We didn't think the Toyota's stereo was nicer, but I'll accept that. One of the other things that pushed us away from the Toyota is that their pricing is higher than Ford's pricing on the Fusion. With Toyota's organization of the option packages, to get leather & a sunroof we would have been forced to spend $3000 more than the Fusion for features we did not want (Navigation, big touch screen, back up camera, etc) and we still would have lacked back up sensors like the FFH has and we would have lacked all the hybrid info that the FFH provides.

 

As far as the mileage goes, we test drove a TCH and a FFH back in October in 50-60 degree weather and found that we did 46.5 MPG in the FFH in about 75% rural highway and 25% city driving and we did 44 MPG in the Camry in 20% highway and 80% city driving. Unfortunately in the Fusion we had a lot more highway driving because it came from a dealer that was 45 miles away. Thus we determined that in both cars our real world fuel economy would be equal. We did not factor fuel economy into our decision. We are getting just over 40 MPG in our FFH which we received in the dead of winter and we should approach 50 MPG in summer. I expect that in a TCH we would be getting about equal. The TCH has more power, but a less refined EV/ICE transition and a less refined regenerative braking feel.

 

The TCH is a very good car. If Ford had not come out with the new FFH until 2014 we would be driving a TCH right now, Ford just happened to get the FFH out just in time for when we were looking to buy that right now Toyota has not had time to respond and improve the TCH. I expect that by 2015 at the latest the TCH will be better than the FFH and Ford will again be playing catch up, but for now...

 

we love our Fusion and believe that it is the best hybrid sedan available :banana piano:

[acdii]

Yes, there are a lot of points in your post that are spot on. but for the stereo, I have a keen ear for music, and can tell the difference between the two. The Sony system is far better than both, but the XLE stereo is a bit better in that it can touch on mid range and highs a lot crisper.

 

However, I sorely wish I had the same experience with the Fusion as you are. I had a final call from Ford, and she pretty much said, we wasted enough time on you, no problem found with the car, if you dont like driving it slow like they showed you, then dont. Oh well, Ford just made an enemy today.

 

I can only hope that maybe someday something breaks on the car in such a way that it actually does start to get the kind of mileage you are getting, since apparently according to Ford, nothing is broken. Weird, but that's how they see it. She really didn't care at all that I road tested another Fusion and a Cmax and had no problem getting over 40 in them.

[B25Nut]

"The fact it has a proven reliability record, and its record of hitting EPA numbers is what leads a lot of people to purchase the TCH over the FFH."

 

I agree that the TCH's reliability record gives it a leg up on the FFH, but get over the "hitting EPA numbbers". Even Consumer Reports admitted that the FFH still has slightly better MPG than the TCH. My Fusion has the same lifetime MPG as yours Acdii, and it's improving as our weather here warms up. Like you've told others, just enjoy your car.

[Da0ne]

Quote:

Originally Posted by B25Nut

The 2013 FFH's style, combined with its quiet smoothness, is creating an emotional attachment that FFH owners would not get with most other vehicles. Plus, driving a car that no one else has in your hometown is a great ego boost.

this is what drove me to buy the FFH although i never considered the TCH because i for one don't like the way it looks and the number of people in my neighborhood (majority livery cabs) have them it drove me away from considering a camry

 

I have to say coming from a 07 Corolla and this being my first hybrid and not knowing how to drive well yet i think the FFH is doing good in these NYC weather.

 

i get 39 mpg in the morning going 50 - 60 and the evening getting 45 mpg same speed and today as the temp was warmer i got 42 mpg

 

also on a 100 mile round trip i avg out 50.2 and that day the temp was 20 wit wind chill at 6 so i do believe the numbers can be achieved

 

plus i like the way people stare at the car

i cant stand ignorant people they are both good cars we just prefer to be different

 

[hybridbear]

Yes, there are a lot of points in your post that are spot on. but for the stereo, I have a keen ear for music, and can tell the difference between the two. The Sony system is far better than both, but the XLE stereo is a bit better in that it can touch on mid range and highs a lot crisper.

 

However, I sorely wish I had the same experience with the Fusion as you are. I had a final call from Ford, and she pretty much said, we wasted enough time on you, no problem found with the car, if you dont like driving it slow like they showed you, then dont. Oh well, Ford just made an enemy today.

 

I can only hope that maybe someday something breaks on the car in such a way that it actually does start to get the kind of mileage you are getting, since apparently according to Ford, nothing is broken. Weird, but that's how they see it. She really didn't care at all that I road tested another Fusion and a Cmax and had no problem getting over 40 in them.

 

I'm tone deaf so I'm glad for your input.

 

I'm very sorry to hear what your final results were from Ford. I do have empathy for you, Fynack, nmadole and others who obviously have something wrong with your cars. I don't know what I would do in your situation. I wish you the best

[acdii]

Thanks buddy! Just have to live with it and hope for the best. I resigned myself to having a lemon, and just hoping that its a glitch that will be found and corrected soon. It still gets better gas mileage than the rest of the lineup, so there is that!

 

 

Besides, $5000 buys a LOT of gas!

[B25Nut]

A TCH owner, after listing all the improvements to the 2012 TCH, had this to say about the FFH:

 

"The only conclusion you can come to is that the FFH is one generation behind the Camry, and needs a major redesign to be competitive."

 

The first response from a potential buyer was "But it [FFH] looks so good and handles quite well. That's what will drive its sales.". The next one came from a 2013 Toyota Avalon Hybrid owner, which says it all:

 

"For me when I look at a TCH and FFH side by side, I think the TCH is a very bland looking car. For me it is almost has the look of an appliance. Nothing in the TCH's lines really draw me to it. The FFH has more curb appeal to me.

In general that is a reason why I haven't been that interested in most of the mainstream Japanese car models. They play it too safe with the styling. The last several years Accords, Camrys, etc. have screamed appliance to me. I want something with a bit more style. For me it is similar when my friend would be pointing out some girl and say she has a great personality. I want more than a great personality, I want the chassis to match as well...

Toyota has played it so safe with the Camry it just annoys the heck out of me. While it has gotten slightly more attractive after the last redesign I still couldn't really seriously consider it. At least with my TAH they took some chances and I think they paid off for the most part in the styling department. Of course beauty is in the eye of the beholder but the Camry just doesn't have enough curb appeal for me."

[acdii]

I wonder which Fusion that first comment was referring to? generation behind? Um, let see, Fusion gets more MPG, check, has better styling, double check, has more options, like Adaptive Cruise, auto highbeams, check, check, and um yeah, check. OK. I think they have it backwards, Toyota has some catching up to do. Especially when the direct competition option to option to the Fusion is the Avalon, at a much steeper cost too.

[B25Nut]

The TCH owner that claims the 2013 FFH is a generation behind gets less than 34 mpg with his car. He's a great example of how prejudice can blind you to the facts. The only advantages I saw with the TCH are its proven reliablity and the bigger trunk with a spare tire, but this is a factor in its looking like an appliance.

[acdii]

Weren't me, at least not that I remember saying. I do remember saying the one I had was like going backwards, but that was then, and I am convinced the new Fusion is doing far better that Camry. So if it wasn't me, hmm maybe it was :baby:

Edited April 10, 2013 by acdii

[hybridbear]

Don't forget that the seats do not fold down in the Camry. That was one of the reasons that the FFH rated higher than the TCH in our comparison shopping

[GrySql]

Weren't me, at least not that I remember saying. So if it wasn't me, hmm maybe it was :baby:

You thinking of running for public office?

[Da0ne]

lmao wow seriously there is no comparison the TCH was never an option for me as here in NYC there are too many of those driving around as cabs i didnt want to be confused for one so that was out of the question the only other hybrid i was considering was the Lexus ct200h, then i saw the fusion and it was like love at first site and for the same price as the ct200 that changed my mind right away for a bigger car with more options and better mpg and havent regretted any min of it

Edited April 10, 2013 by Da0ne

[fusionTX]

Where looks and features are concerned, there is no comparison. Fusion wins hands down.

The new Fusion still has to prove itself regarding reliability.

MPG-wise they are probably similar.

 

On my way to pick up my new Fusion right now, and just sold my 2007 Camry Hybrid for 12,000.

Looking forward to enjoying the Fusion. It really was love at first sight with the Fusion.

[B25Nut]

TX, I'm very happy to hear your day has arrived! You've been here a long time, and have been a great inquiring mind.

[acdii]

You thinking of running for public office?

oh Hell NO, I dont have that kind of gutter mentality(at least I HOPE I dont!)

[hybridbear]

Congratulations!! I hope you get a good one :) Please share pics. You've waited a long time!

 

Where looks and features are concerned, there is no comparison. Fusion wins hands down.
The new Fusion still has to prove itself regarding reliability.
MPG-wise they are probably similar.

On my way to pick up my new Fusion right now, and just sold my 2007 Camry Hybrid for 12,000.
Looking forward to enjoying the Fusion. It really was love at first sight with the Fusion.

[terryb]

I was gonna try to get over to the dealer to meet him, but the weather turned to Crap and I decided a meet and greet wasn't worth the risk to me or the car with just enough rain to slick things up right at quitin' time. So I'll have to wait on his pics too.

Edited April 11, 2013 by terryb

[fusionTX]

Congratulations!! I hope you get a good one :) Please share pics. You've waited a long time!

Thanks. The car is awesome. Just got home a little while ago. It's cold and raining and windy in Houston right now, but the ride was so smooth and quiet. I must say it is a bit overwhelming at first with all the technology available.

[acdii]

Well did the rain sensing wipers work?

[B25Nut]

Houtex, who may be a member here but under a different name (thank you!), just posted this on Toyota Nation. More TCH owners are becoming jealous over there:

 

I bought the original 2007 TCH. Got one of the first ones made in Japan. Was a fantastic car, and I was ecstatic when I got it. Over the years, though, I stopped playing the hybrid games and trying to maximize MPGs . It was just too much work and not relaxing at all. During this phase I still managed 33 to 34 MPG with my hybrid-friendly daily commute.

 

Late last year, I decided it was time for a new car and the Fusion Hybrid was going to be it. I did visit Toyota, but thought the 2012 was too plain vanilla for me. I was ready for a change.

 

As I was waiting for my Fusion to arrive, I once again started driving my Camry to maximize mileage. I managed tanks of 40 to 38 for the last three tanks, so it still had it, if I was willing to put in the work.

 

Four weeks with my Fusion Titanium, and I am giddy. I absolutely love the car, and getting mid forties on my commute to the office is no work at all. On top of that I have so many features, that I have barely scratched the surface of what the car can do. Automatic bright lights, automatic wipers, blind side indicator, lane change assist, park assist, front and back sensors, memory seats, remote start, keypad on outside to lock and unlock door, ambient lighting, beautiful single color interior with soft finishes, and all kinds of electronic connections.

 

My Camry was the best car I ever owned. It never left me anywhere and was still going strong at 93,500 miles.

 

There are a few things the Fusion is lacking that my Camry had. One is a larger gas tank. My Camry had a 16 gallon tank, the fusion only 13.5. Also current trip MPG is not given until the end of the trip. i liked that with the Camry I could see how my mileage was progressing during the trip. Also, tank average is not computed for you in the Fusion, unless you manually set one of the trip computers or reset the Avg MPG. i also think the Fusion could take better advantage of the 8" screen to provide some nice mileage graphics.

 

All small items though which Ford can easily remedy.

 

Long term reliability is the only unknown right now with my Fusion, but I can tell you I've never felt so good about a new car . I look forward to every chance I get to drive it.

Edited May 9, 2013 by B25Nut

[dalesky]

Back in December I checked out the Toyota Nation site where they had started a thread on TCH vs FFH. Someone requested imput from a 2013 FFH owner, so I put my 2 cents in while trying to be repectful and impartial. Boy, did I get attacked! I was called a Troll and Fanboy and asked to go away. They even ate one of their own, a 2012 TCH owner that pointed out some areas where the FFH could possibly be better. One post stated the FFH looked like a beached whale.

They are now on their third thread on the subject http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/105-camry-hybrid/447305-2013-ford-fusion-hybrid-vs-2012-toyota-camry-hybrid-3.html

FusionTX made a great post over the weekend (thank you TX):

"There are many Toyota hybrid owners looking at Ford's offerings. I am one. I own a 2007 TCH and it has been a great car to date. However, to me the Fusion Hybrid offers so many more options than the Camry, and it's not a plain Jane car. It looks amazing. Regardless of how good my Camry has been, I feel the car has digressed in some ways. When I bought, you had a single leather color. Now you have a tri color seat, part of which is suede. Little things like that have made me move on. I'm sure it's still a high quality car, but it's no longer what I crave. I did consider the Avalon hybrid. Very nice interior, but in the end, the value in the Fusion, and its looks, made me take a chance on Ford.

 

We should all wish Ford success. Even if you decided on a Toyota over a Ford, it's no reason for ill will on Ford. If both have successful offerings, we all win."

 

A new poster, who ended up spending the extra money and getting the 2013 Avalon Hybrid, appeared today and makes some very good points.

 

This probably doesn't have to be said, but I sure we'll show respect here to any TCH owners that want to post.

 

Did anyone notice that if you sign up to be a member of the TCH forum you get to choose from a free membership, one for 29.95 and another one for even more! what's up with that?

As much as I like the Avalon hybrid, after driving the TCH and the Avalon, the Avalon is way too big for us, and way too expensive, while the TCH is no larger than the FFH, and doesn't even close to as sharply as the FFH. Also, transitions to the gas engine are harsher, and it is just plain not as attractive, especially inside, plus the feature sets are much lower level than the FFH. Just my two bits.

Wait, one more thing- are TCH owners getting the amazing mileage that FFH owners are?

Edited May 9, 2013 by dalesky

[dalesky]

 

I agree. I really enjoy being in the FFH, I love driving it. My first car was a 1998 Chevy Lumina (junk), my next car was a 2000 Chrysler LHS (luxurious & huge, like the Titanic, but not really a fun car to drive), from there I had 3 Saabs. A 2002 Saab 9-3 2.0T, a 2001 9-5 Aero and a 2003 9-5 Aero. The Saabs were all drivers cars. In all three I really enjoyed cruising. If only they weren't so unreliable and not fuel efficient and we might have kept each of them for more than a couple years. Like the Saabs I find the new FFH to be a drivers car, a car that is enjoyable to drive and evokes that connection to the driver.

 

I can't wait for spring and warm weather to go and cruise around with my wife some sunny evening with the windows down and enjoying the silence of driving in EV mode!

 

 

2-5 also apply to us. The Camry's interior is much lower quality than the Fusion and the ICE/EV transition is not as good. I would add that the regenerative braking in the Camry is also not as well refined.

 

The Toyota/Ford dealer comment is another one too. When I went to the Toyota dealer and told the salesman that we were also looking at the Fusion Hybrid he immediately started bashing Ford and the FFH. He even went so far as to print out these sheets that Toyota has prepared to show how the TCH is superior. Unfortunately all of Toyota's documents were about how the TCH is superior to the 2012 FFH, a fact I would never have disputed. When I told him that he was bashing the wrong car he didn't seem to care and went on and on about how the FFH is worse. So I took the position of defending the FFH and telling him all the ways that the TCH is worse. He finally got the point and apologized at the end.

 

In contrast, the Ford dealer never said anything negative about the Camry. When we told the salesman that we were deciding between the TCH and the FFH he didn't turn negative. We even told him about some of the areas that we found the TCH to be superior to the Ford, which he acknowledged. His attitude was much better than the attitude at multiple Toyota dealers I talked to. Every Toyota dealer I had visited (3 different dealers in the area) all immediately took to bashing the FFH when it was mentioned. Sometimes even before I mentioned other cars we were considering they started bashing the Hyundai Sonata Hybrid, the FFH, etc without prompting. That did not leave a good impression.

 

 

I think Toyota will come back soon with some major improvements to the Camry, especially if their sales fall off in 2013 because of the new Ford hybrids. Reportedly the next gen Prius will get 75 MPG and have an AWD option. If that proves to be true I think we'll see major improvements from Ford in response...this is one of the benefits of capitalism...it yields competition, which benefits consumers

In contrast, when I drove the Camry Hybrid the dealer had a lot of bad to say about Ford, especially the SYNC compared to the Toyota. I found the new Camry no where near as easy to drive, and in fact the handling felt numb. it did have good pickup, and the transitions were ok, but more noticeable to me.

[fusionTX]

Houtex, who may be a member here but under a different name

You think :)

[rico567]

I drove a 2012 Camry, rental for a week, and it was numb squared. And in spades. The FFH, by contrast, actually has HANDLING.

 

As an aside, when we visited the Ford dealer for our test drive, the salesman apologized for not knowing some things about hybrid tech, and stated that he wouldn't speak to any question he didn't have an answer for. He said "If we give out bad information the first time, we get a slap on the wrist. The second time, we're fired. The owner won't tolerate it."