Hybrid Engine Issue - Not Good

[akirby]

I believe misfires are detected by low crankshaft accelerations of individual cylinders.

 

How does it measure the acceleration of an individual cylinder? They're all connected to the same crankshaft. I thought it detected misfires by the exhaust sensor.

[lolder]

How does it measure the acceleration of an individual cylinder? They're all connected to the same crankshaft. I thought it detected misfires by the exhaust sensor.

They measure crankshaft speed/acceleration at a very high data rate which shows the acceleration of the crankshaft with each power stroke of every cylinder. This varies with power demand so they look for an an individual acceleration that is below the average of all the strokes (maybe 20% low, I'm not sure). That triggers the miss detection. The exhaust sensors would turn on the engine light which is mostly for emissions. The miss detection has a lot of software logic in it and is pretty complicated and may vary somewhat between different vehicles and manufacturers. The smoke people are seeing is not connected with worn, failed engines as used to be the case and an understandable cause of alarm.

[akirby]

They measure crankshaft speed/acceleration at a very high data rate which shows the acceleration of the crankshaft with each power stroke of every cylinder. This varies with power demand so they look for an an individual acceleration that is below the average of all the strokes (maybe 20% low, I'm not sure). That triggers the miss detection. The exhaust sensors would turn on the engine light which is mostly for emissions. The miss detection has a lot of software logic in it and is pretty complicated and may vary somewhat between different vehicles and manufacturers. The smoke people are seeing is not connected with worn, failed engines as used to be the case and an understandable cause of alarm.

 

Interesting......

[lolder]

When the computer stops this ICE, it turns off EGR and evaporative emissions valves which can introduce hydrocarbons into the engine. It then ramps down the fuel injector flow. It begins to spin the ICE with MG1 to keep the rpm constant as the power reduces. When the power ceases and intake manifold is purged, the spark is turned off and the MG1 motorizing ceases, MG2 takes over vehicle propulsion and the ICE rapidly stops passing through lower rpm vibration points quickly. The crankshaft is positioned for the next start. During restart, the reverse happens, the ICE is motorized by MG1 to about 1100 rpm, the spark turned on, the fuel flow ramped up and the motorizing reduced to keep a constant rpm as the ICE comes on. The EGR and other inputs are then allowed. This is all for smooth starts and stops and emission control. The throttle is also manipulated so there is less vibration from compression while the ICE is accelerating/decelerating to the minimum operating rpm of about 1100. This is not your Daddy's car.

Edited September 21, 2010 by lolder

[kirkster57]

The check engine light came on after I let up on the throttle. If there was a misfire, I felt no evidence of it. I've been reading a lot of very good comments from folks on this. This has been one of the more mysifying car problems i've had. The dealder is doing whaterver they can so far but they even admitted that they don't know a lot about how the Hybrids work form a diagnostic perspective. That's comforting... :banghead: A lot of folks have been commenting about the smoke and saying, I wouldn't worry about it, monitor the situation,etc. Bottom line is that when I told the dealer about it they said that's not normal and bring the car in so we can figure out what's going on with it. It's still there...

 

Yes, that's possible. Did the misfire occur before or after the smoke?

[ralteredstates]

They measure crankshaft speed/acceleration at a very high data rate which shows the acceleration of the crankshaft with each power stroke of every cylinder. This varies with power demand so they look for an an individual acceleration that is below the average of all the strokes (maybe 20% low, I'm not sure). That triggers the miss detection. The exhaust sensors would turn on the engine light which is mostly for emissions. The miss detection has a lot of software logic in it and is pretty complicated and may vary somewhat between different vehicles and manufacturers. The smoke people are seeing is not connected with worn, failed engines as used to be the case and an understandable cause of alarm.

When you say the alarm is understandable, do you mean the alarm is necessary? (ie: should we be alarmed when we see the blue smoke, and why?)

[akirby]

When you say the alarm is understandable, do you mean the alarm is necessary? (ie: should we be alarmed when we see the blue smoke, and why?)

 

What he means is a puff of smoke in a new modern engine does not mean the same thing as a puff of smoke in an older car - which indicated bad rings or valves or some other expensive repair.

[jeff_h]

Don't know what color smoke cmoes from unburned fule, but mine was blue and very thick. I think the service guys are responding to the "quick" remedy and not the real cause. I think I may be back a couple of times on this one.

 

Yep, same here with the thick blue smoke, which is why I thought I blew up the engine when I stomped on the gas... but whether that's a limitation of the atkinson cycle engine (again I don't know exactly how it works or how susceptible it is for misfires) I have no idea, I just don't stomp on the gas and all is well.

[lordyourjosh]

Just as an extra data point - I have a 2010 Fusion Hybrid that I got in March. I have about 7000 miles on it, now. I definitely drive "harder" than most hybrid drivers (I think), and I frequently use a heavy foot on the accelerator. I've never seen any type of smoke coming out of my car, and no trouble lights so far. I don't usually see 40mpg with the way I drive, but I'm enjoying the car and still getting far better gas mileage than I did in my previous vehicle.

 

Did you guys drive so gingerly at the beginning that the rings never seated, maybe? :poke: :D

 

All kidding aside, I hope you get the issue sorted out.

[kirkster57]

Ok...I got the car back this morning. here is what was done. They tested the car and confirmed the condition. The EEC was tested and P0301 & P0130 were in memory. They pinpoint tested and the ignition system was tested . Coil #1 was stress tested and it failed. The PCM need reprogramming to latest Cal per TSB 10-17-11. Plug #1 and the coil were replaced. System was retested and the car was road tested.

I haven't stomped on the gas yet, but willl do so this evening. The car does seem to run better, but they coule be like thinking your car runs better after it gets washed.

[Grey]

 

Did you guys drive so gingerly at the beginning that the rings never seated, maybe? :poke: :D

 

I have thought the same thing. I worried about seating the rings and at 1000 miles I ran it up in low gear and let it coast back down trying to create a little backpressure. You don't want to drive it like you stole it, but some 3/4 throttle runs and high speed coast down events might be called for. It is rare for some of us to ever get the ICE above 1,800 RPM. Another reason not to change to a full synthetic before break-in is completed. There is such a thing as "too slick" with a new engine honed like ours.

[lolder]

I have thought the same thing. I worried about seating the rings and at 1000 miles I ran it up in low gear and let it coast back down trying to create a little backpressure. You don't want to drive it like you stole it, but some 3/4 throttle runs and high speed coast down events might be called for. It is rare for some of us to ever get the ICE above 1,800 RPM. Another reason not to change to a full synthetic before break-in is completed. There is such a thing as "too slick" with a new engine honed like ours.

I would think that there would be oil consumption on a regular basis if the rings didn't seat which no one has reported. Also remember, with an Atkinson cycle hybrid, the throttle plate position is not related very much to where the accelerator pedal is. You may have a very small pedal application and a 1/2 to 3/4 open throttle plate and a corresponding high BMEP (power level) in the cylinder, it's just at low rpm. Full pedal application causes slightly higher pressures and a LOT higher rpm. This engine is essentially "lugged" all the time. The break-in periods now seem to be very brief and only mention not driving at the same speeds. There seems to be no initial oil consumption that tapers off as rings seat.

[kirkster57]

The oil burning problem is gone. I floored that thing at least 5 times today and no more oil burning. I need to point out that when flooring it, the engine is behaving differently than before. It seems more controlled. When I floored it when the oil was burning, it felt like the engine was going to blow. It reved very high and seemed to have a lot of kick. The car accelerates good now but not as hard. The computer was reprogrammed based on a TSB I quoted in an earlier post. Could that have been Fords "fix" for the issue? I checked the oil level and its at the top of the fill range. I'm floored. I thought it was something esle for sure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok...I got the car back this morning. here is what was done. They tested the car and confirmed the condition. The EEC was tested and P0301 & P0130 were in memory. They pinpoint tested and the ignition system was tested . Coil #1 was stress tested and it failed. The PCM need reprogramming to latest Cal per TSB 10-17-11. Plug #1 and the coil were replaced. System was retested and the car was road tested.

I haven't stomped on the gas yet, but willl do so this evening. The car does seem to run better, but they coule be like thinking your car runs better after it gets washed.

[jeff_h]

Did you guys drive so gingerly at the beginning that the rings never seated, maybe? :poke: :D

 

I guess that's possible since I do take it easy to get the best MPG that I can, but I had 25K miles when it happened to me, wouldn't that be quite a while with the rings not yet seated??

[Buster1]

Kirkster,

 

Either way, glad it's working out! And thanks for being dilligent and keeping us posted on the progress and fix. I'm sure yours wont be the last of these type of issues. It will be good to know what the fix is if someone else develops a similar problem.

[kirkster57]

Thanks...it been a couple of weeks and things are working great. I have floored the car a couple of times and not a hint of smoke.

 

Kirkster,

 

Either way, glad it's working out! And thanks for being dilligent and keeping us posted on the progress and fix. I'm sure yours wont be the last of these type of issues. It will be good to know what the fix is if someone else develops a similar problem.

[lolder]

I turned a corner today and then floored it from about 10 mph to 65. Blue-white smoke. Floored it in passing a few seconds a few minutes later, no smoke. 19,500 miles. No warning lights and normal sounding engine. Oil level 2/3 between marks on dip stick. Something about the turns must cause this.