Decisions?

[Scott A320]

I'm not so sure it's a hoax either. I live in San Diego (site of the incident) and the local San Diego Union Tribune ran a story a bit more elaborate than the Reuters link previously posted.

While Mr. Sike's background may cast a shadow over his story, the complete narrative by the CHP officer paints a compelling picture.

 

Bottom line to me: Given past transgressions by Toyota and the gravity of the situation, they have a steep hill (pun intended!) to climb.

[lolder]

The CHP officer could not have seen whether Sikes foot was on the pedal or how hard he was pressing. What are Toyota's transgressions? These hybrids CANNOT runaway like this!!! THESE ARE HOAXES OR PEDAL ERROR!

[DTJJK96]

He went from the brakes to the accelerator 250 times according to Toyota. He was accelerating, then braking, accelerating, then braking.

 

I don't know if this was a hoax or not but I just want to add this comment. Being a little older I have been in the situation with older vehicles that I have had to (what they call pump the brakes) to get the brake pedal to firm up and stop the car. Now a days there are anti lock brakes and you are only suppose to press firmer on the brake pedal and let the computer do the work. Also in the old days I have had to (tap or goose the accelerator) in order to get the carburetor un stuck and reduce the RPM's of the engine. Anyone else remember having to do this?

 

Could this fellow have been doing both to try to stop the vehicle? Only a thought! That would account for possibly the 250 times.

[lolder]

I don't know if this was a hoax or not but I just want to add this comment. Being a little older I have been in the situation with older vehicles that I have had to (what they call pump the brakes) to get the brake pedal to firm up and stop the car. Now a days there are anti lock brakes and you are only suppose to press firmer on the brake pedal and let the computer do the work. Also in the old days I have had to (tap or goose the accelerator) in order to get the carburetor un stuck and reduce the RPM's of the engine. Anyone else remember having to do this?

 

Could this fellow have been doing both to try to stop the vehicle? Only a thought! That would account for possibly the 250 times.

" The hybrid self- diagnostic system did show evidence of numerous, rapidly repeated on-and- off applications of both the accelerator and the brake pedals"

I) I remember soft brakes on old, old cars. These cars are relatively new. I remember tapping the accelerator pedal to unlatch the cold engine fast idle, that's all. These accelerators are not mechanical and don't stick.

2) TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY TIMES???????

There is nothing wrong with these or our cars!

Edited March 19, 2010 by lolder

[Scott A320]

The CHP officer could not have seen whether Sikes foot was on the pedal or how hard he was pressing. What are Toyota's transgressions? These hybrids CANNOT runaway like this!!! THESE ARE HOAXES OR PEDAL ERROR!

 

While you seem to have reached an irrevocable conclusion, my mind is open to the facts as they are disseminated - and many credentialed experts on both sides offer a compelling case. Automotive data recorders are rudimentary compared with the available technology (cost constrained) and don't recreate a complete picture.

 

This story is far from over......

[Oman]

Hoax, maybe. Pedal error -ruled out by Toyota themselves. They indicated that the Prius in question had the software override that shuts down the throttle input with any brake activation. The interesting bit is about the pedal swaping that Toyota said happened over 250 times within the data recorders 20 minute or so data recorder. It takes about 5 seconds for the ICE in the Prius to spool up after braking and add roughly 5 MPH to the car at speed. A switch to the brakes to slow that 5 MPH would take about 2 seconds. That's 7 seconds not including the transition. That's only 170 humanly possible transitions in 20 minutes. Even then it has been shown that this would not overheat the brakes because of the intervals (there are people trying to figure out how to simulate this manually, and so far no one has been able to). The CHP officer noted the brakes burning at the time the car stopped. As well the Pruis was observed by officers and the car did not appear to be slowing as expected when the brake lights came on if brakes and no throttle were applied.

 

(just to note that Toyota appears to have lied numerous times about their data recorders to the courts. The latest I saw was 20 minutes of non-crash data which seems to have been more or less backed up by other reports)

 

Since no one has been able to simulate this event without altering the car then either the car in fact failed in some way or the car was tampered with - or this guy was smarter than everyone else since then.

 

I'm not saying that it wasn't a hoax or a scam, just that is wasn't as simple to pull off as some here seem to think it would be.

 

Jon

 

 

 

 

 

 

The CHP officer could not have seen whether Sikes foot was on the pedal or how hard he was pressing. What are Toyota's transgressions? These hybrids CANNOT runaway like this!!! THESE ARE HOAXES OR PEDAL ERROR!

[lolder]

Toyota's secrecy about the Event Data Recorders is troubling as is their former attorney's allegations. A lot of us here really understand a lot about how these cars work. But people are fallible and build things with defects. This is like trying to prove that ghosts exist. Each time designers have improved on these systems, one of the types of SUAs cease to exist like the Brake-Shift interlock that stopped the cold-initial start runaways completely. That insured that the foot had to be on the brake, not the accelerator. I can't in this universe conceive of brake AND throttle systems having such massive simultaneous failures to cause the discussed event and leave no trace. This is a real world and pigs DON'T fly. I believe with the Prius, he could have kept the throttle on by not pressing the brake far enough to activate the throttle retard but still burn up the brakes. Apparently it takes much more brake pedal to activate throttle retard than is necessary to turn on the brake lights or disconnect the cruise control. Remember these are all fuel injected cars and computers have to activate throttle plate actuators and fuel injector flow in a coordinated manner to run the engines. Toyota is being ruined by this hysteria. It took Audi 15 years for their sales to recover and exhaustive studies never identified any electrical or mechanical cause of their runaways. Hey, I have a FFH and I think it's a better car but like a Mercedes-Benz executive said recently, I don't believe Schadenfreude is good . Schadenfreude is deriving pleasure/benefit from the misfortune of others. If Toyota is concealing something material about this issue, they should rot in hell. If not, a lot of other people should go to jail. In the meantime, Edmunds had a good article that showed your chance of dying in a Toyota accident from any OTHER cause was 250 times greater than from "unintended acceleration". And the Toyota accident rate was not materially different than other manufacturers. Don't say "but what if it's you". That's not a logical position.

[Grey]

. Im going with my wife to look at the Mazda 6 tommorow and if she likes it im buying it.

 

Did you buy the Mazda? If so, what made you decide to do it?

[Oman]

I was applying reason to the available data, not trying to enhance the hysteria. The Prius is no less safe than it was before this incident. Just like the trip to the airport is far more dangerous than the flight itself yet people worry about the flight.

 

I am more interested in finding a possible fault so that it all cars can benefit or proving once and for all that there is no fault other than human error - and in that case adding to the system to catch that human error.

 

We all benefited from Audi's (originally patented and then given away to all) interlock on the brake / shifter. A simple and yet brilliant technical fix for a human problem that in the end saved lives.

 

Jon

 

 

 

Toyota's secrecy about the Event Data Recorders is troubling as is their former attorney's allegations. A lot of us here really understand a lot about how these cars work. But people are fallible and build things with defects. This is like trying to prove that ghosts exist. Each time designers have improved on these systems, one of the types of SUAs cease to exist like the Brake-Shift interlock that stopped the cold-initial start runaways completely. That insured that the foot had to be on the brake, not the accelerator. I can't in this universe conceive of brake AND throttle systems having such massive simultaneous failures to cause the discussed event and leave no trace. This is a real world and pigs DON'T fly. I believe with the Prius, he could have kept the throttle on by not pressing the brake far enough to activate the throttle retard but still burn up the brakes. Apparently it takes much more brake pedal to activate throttle retard than is necessary to turn on the brake lights or disconnect the cruise control. Remember these are all fuel injected cars and computers have to activate throttle plate actuators and fuel injector flow in a coordinated manner to run the engines. Toyota is being ruined by this hysteria. It took Audi 15 years for their sales to recover and exhaustive studies never identified any electrical or mechanical cause of their runaways. Hey, I have a FFH and I think it's a better car but like a Mercedes-Benz executive said recently, I don't believe Schadenfreude is good . Schadenfreude is deriving pleasure/benefit from the misfortune of others. If Toyota is concealing something material about this issue, they should rot in hell. If not, a lot of other people should go to jail. In the meantime, Edmunds had a good article that showed your chance of dying in a Toyota accident from any OTHER cause was 250 times greater than from "unintended acceleration". And the Toyota accident rate was not materially different than other manufacturers. Don't say "but what if it's you". That's not a logical position.

[Juris]

If gas goes back to $4/gallon it would still take 6 years to make up a $6K price difference on fuel alone (assuming 300 miles per week).

 

True enough but it's not a $6,000 difference.

[seamusbleu]

Toyota's secrecy about the Event Data Recorders is troubling as is their former attorney's allegations. A lot of us here really understand a lot about how these cars work. But people are fallible and build things with defects. This is like trying to prove that ghosts exist. Each time designers have improved on these systems, one of the types of SUAs cease to exist like the Brake-Shift interlock that stopped the cold-initial start runaways completely. That insured that the foot had to be on the brake, not the accelerator. I can't in this universe conceive of brake AND throttle systems having such massive simultaneous failures to cause the discussed event and leave no trace. This is a real world and pigs DON'T fly. I believe with the Prius, he could have kept the throttle on by not pressing the brake far enough to activate the throttle retard but still burn up the brakes. Apparently it takes much more brake pedal to activate throttle retard than is necessary to turn on the brake lights or disconnect the cruise control. Remember these are all fuel injected cars and computers have to activate throttle plate actuators and fuel injector flow in a coordinated manner to run the engines. Toyota is being ruined by this hysteria. It took Audi 15 years for their sales to recover and exhaustive studies never identified any electrical or mechanical cause of their runaways. Hey, I have a FFH and I think it's a better car but like a Mercedes-Benz executive said recently, I don't believe Schadenfreude is good . Schadenfreude is deriving pleasure/benefit from the misfortune of others. If Toyota is concealing something material about this issue, they should rot in hell. If not, a lot of other people should go to jail. In the meantime, Edmunds had a good article that showed your chance of dying in a Toyota accident from any OTHER cause was 250 times greater than from "unintended acceleration". And the Toyota accident rate was not materially different than other manufacturers. Don't say "but what if it's you". That's not a logical position.

I believe it's possible for this guy to be perpetrating a hoax. I also believe it's possible for Toyota to be orchestrating spin control on this guy to make it look like he's doing a hoax.

 

And Edmunds is just another media outlet. It's in their best interest, like all media, to be interesting, but not necessarily accurate. I'm sure it is easy to flip a prius into nuetral while standing on the accelarator. What I'd like to see them do is try to burn up the brakes by simultaneously braking and accelarating to 90+ mph. I'm not sure it can be done.

 

Shouldn't the regenerative brakes slow the car down if you aren't jamming on the brakes? And if you are jamming on the brakes shouldn't the accelarator be overridden? So somewhere in between that you can get brakes and accelaration and burn up the brakes and hit 90+ mph?

 

Maybe, but I'd like to see it done.

[engratsea]

I would not be hesitant at all about driving a Prius or any other Toyota; unless you are in bumper to bumper traffic and tailgating you should be able to pull the car out of drive and still stop.

 

All of these new cars are run by computers, and like all computers they can crash, have a glitch, or just freeze. It does appear that Toyota has a more glitch prone computer, but any car totally run by a computer can have this problem.

 

I am not buying the run away Prius story for a minute, however that guy has to be a total moron to perform this hoax. He could be facing some serious charges if it was all made up.

 

That being said, I test drove the Prius prior to buying the FFH; not even comparable. The FFH blew the Prius out of the water. While at times I still envy the Prius gas mileage I dont regret the choice. I would recommend getting the FFH; I bet the cavalier doesnt get 50+ MPG it the city.

[fsb99]

 

I am not buying the run away Prius story for a minute, however that guy has to be a total moron to perform this hoax. He could be facing some serious charges if it was all made up.

 

 

I'm not sure which side to believe on this one...seems like both sides have credibility issue, but there are plenty of attention hungry morons out there...look up "balloon boy"

[Goodbyeprius]

Did you buy the Mazda? If so, what made you decide to do it?

 

Yup bought the mazda 6 last night hope to pick it up thursday morning. I showed my wife both cars she really liked the mazda so we decided to get it . The car comes with alot of standard features which was one of the deciding factors.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Goodbyeprius

[Goodbyeprius]

I would not be hesitant at all about driving a Prius or any other Toyota; unless you are in bumper to bumper traffic and tailgating you should be able to pull the car out of drive and still stop.

 

All of these new cars are run by computers, and like all computers they can crash, have a glitch, or just freeze. It does appear that Toyota has a more glitch prone computer, but any car totally run by a computer can have this problem.

 

I am not buying the run away Prius story for a minute, however that guy has to be a total moron to perform this hoax. He could be facing some serious charges if it was all made up.

 

That being said, I test drove the Prius prior to buying the FFH; not even comparable. The FFH blew the Prius out of the water. While at times I still envy the Prius gas mileage I dont regret the choice. I would recommend getting the FFH; I bet the cavalier doesnt get 50+ MPG it the city.

 

All highway in the cavalier.