Decisions?

[Goodbyeprius]

Im trading in my prius and Im having a hard time justifying the cost of the FFH. I drove one yesterday and it was awesome so much nicer than the prius. The lowest im seeing is like $28000 and Im thinking of just getting an 4cyl SE model instead. The prius was cheaper when I bought it and I understand its a smaler car. Any help would be great sorry to ramble. It also pisses me off that you cant get the 0% finacing on the hybrid also

 

PS my wife wants a Subaru outback which is a really nice car but more expensive

Edited March 15, 2010 by Goodbyeprius

[VonoreTn]

Once you get used to the FFH mileage, there is no going back to a 23 mpg vehicle. The Subaru is a great vehicle but how often do you need 4 wheel drive? I had it in an Explorer for 10 years and used it about twice, going out of my way to find a reason to use it. The Prius is a good car too, but I don't think it has the road comfort or the safety of a larger, heavier car. The Volkswagen Jetta Diesel is a good choice but it doesn't get quite the mileage of a FFH. (30 city, 42 highway).

 

I don't consider the FFH overpriced, because I know that the cost to build it is there, given the high content drivetrain and batteries, and that Ford is not making a huge profit on it like they do on a lot of their trucks. There is a lot of serious business speculation that Toyota loses money on the Prius, to get you into their dealership where they can sell you a Camry. Toyota would never acknowledge this if it were true, since they would risk charges of product dumping.

 

http://www.glgroup.com/News/Is-Toyotas-Prius-Being-Dumped-On-The-US-Market--23242.html

Edited March 15, 2010 by VonoreTn

[Goodbyeprius]

Once you get used to the FFH mileage, there is no going back to a 23 mpg vehicle. The Subaru is a great vehicle but how often do you need 4 wheel drive? I had it in an Explorer for 10 years and used it about twice, going out of my way to find a reason to use it. The Prius is a good car too, but I don't think it has the road comfort or the safety of a larger, heavier car. The Volkswagen Jetta Diesel is a good choice but it doesn't get quite the mileage of a FFH. (30 city, 42 highway).

 

I don't consider the FFH overpriced, because I know that the cost to build it is there, given the high content drivetrain and batteries, and that Ford is not making a huge profit on it like they do on a lot of their trucks. There is a lot of serious business speculation that Toyota loses money on the Prius, to get you into their dealership where they can sell you a Camry. Toyota would never acknowledge this if it were true, since they would risk charges of product dumping.

 

http://www.glgroup.com/News/Is-Toyotas-Prius-Being-Dumped-On-The-US-Market--23242.html

 

I dont think the FFH is overpriced I do understand it costs more to make im just having a hard time with the $6000 differece between the SE and the FFH wich would take forever to break even . The only thing I can think of is that the Hybrid will have a better resale value wich will probably cut the difference in half.

[akirby]

I dont think the FFH is overpriced I do understand it costs more to make im just having a hard time with the $6000 differece between the SE and the FFH wich would take forever to break even . The only thing I can think of is that the Hybrid will have a better resale value wich will probably cut the difference in half.

 

It would be hard to make up the $6K difference in fuel savings but resale value will be a lot better if you plan to get rid of it in 3-5 years. If money is tight now you might be better off with the SE. You can always get a hybrid later. If price isn't a big issue I think the FFH will payoff down the road.

[lolder]

Reviewers say the FFH is only about $3500 more than a similarly equipped V6 Fusion.

[toyz]

It would be hard to make up the $6K difference in fuel savings but resale value will be a lot better if you plan to get rid of it in 3-5 years. If money is tight now you might be better off with the SE. You can always get a hybrid later. If price isn't a big issue I think the FFH will payoff down the road.

 

It may sound strange, but my final decision was between a Sport and a Hybrid. I decided on the Sport. I am realizing 22mpg (city) and 27mpg (highway) with my Sport. So if I average this to 25 mpg and the Hybrid gets 40 mpg, and I drive 12,000 miles a year, the Hybrid will save 180 gallons a fuel a year. While this is good for humanity, I didn't feel the $540 annual savings (or the $1,620 I would save over a three year planned ownership period) offet the increased cost, and increased complexity risk, of the Hybrid. I assume the numbers will get even closer with the 4-cylinder car's better mileage.

[Juris]

Reviewers say the FFH is only about $3500 more than a similarly equipped V6 Fusion.

 

Correct, you have to be careful when comparing the price of the FFH to non-hybrid. It is about $3500 more for an FFH compared to a FF Sel, which is pretty much the equivalent setup to the basic FFH. But of course you can add even more bells and whistles to your FFH than the base model.

 

I never considered the non-hybrid Fusion. At the time I was shopping (May 2009), I also benefited from a $1700 federal tax credit, which further reduced the "premium" on the FFH.

 

As for getting your money back in the long run, that depends not just on resale value but also on what happens to gasoline prices over the next few years.

[rfruth]

Going back to an ICE only from a hybrid might be a shock, wait till the 2011s hit then the `10s will be discounted - if saving money is a priority get something a couple years old (Subaru, Ford, whatever) have all the fluids flushed, alignment done etc and you will be thousands ahead ...

[akirby]

but also on what happens to gasoline prices over the next few years.

 

If gas goes back to $4/gallon it would still take 6 years to make up a $6K price difference on fuel alone (assuming 300 miles per week).

[lolder]

Im trading in my prius and Im having a hard time justifying the cost of the FFH. I drove one yesterday and it was awesome so much nicer than the prius. The lowest im seeing is like $28000 and Im thinking of just getting an 4cyl SE model instead. The prius was cheaper when I bought it and I understand its a smaler car. Any help would be great sorry to ramble. It also pisses me off that you cant get the 0% finacing on the hybrid also

 

PS my wife wants a Subaru outback which is a really nice car but more expensive

Why are you trading in your Prius?

[lordyourjosh]

If gas goes back to $4/gallon it would still take 6 years to make up a $6K price difference on fuel alone (assuming 300 miles per week).

 

I priced out a 4-banger with equivalent options to my FFH, which means a FWD 2.5L SEL to get all of the power seat/dual zone climate control stuff. The price difference was about $3670. Before purchasing mine, I did come fuel calculations and decided I would break even around 3.5-4 years, without any thought to resale value.

[akirby]

I priced out a 4-banger with equivalent options to my FFH, which means a FWD 2.5L SEL to get all of the power seat/dual zone climate control stuff. The price difference was about $3670. Before purchasing mine, I did come fuel calculations and decided I would break even around 3.5-4 years, without any thought to resale value.

 

Was that the out the door price difference or MSRP? You can probably get another $2K or so off MSRP on the non hybrid.

[Goodbyeprius]

Why are you trading in your Prius?

 

My wife wont even drive the car with all the bad press going on about the prius. I cant make her drive the car so goodbye. I think im down to 2 choices now the Fusion SE or the Mazda6 which is what I think were getting if all goes well with the trade in. The mazda is such a great deal for what you get and it looks great.

[probowler]

Is it even one of the effected models? I'm betting some of those "runaway hybrids" were scammers trying to make a dime. They just had a story on one person doing this today.

[lolder]

I think ALL of the "runaways" are driver pedal error or scammers except the sticky (not runaway) pedals and the jammed floor mat. Read this from the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/11/opinion/11schmidt.html?sq=bad%20brakes&st=cse&adxnnl=1&scp=1&adxnnlx=1268755346-vq/8qoKywOKiazHweontwQ. Have your wife read it! Trading in a perfectly good Prius on ANY deal is going to cost you thousands. And you won't have a hybrid. Take a deep breath.

Edited March 16, 2010 by lolder

[akirby]

I think ALL of the "runaways" are driver pedal error or scammers except the sticky (not runaway) pedals and the jammed floor mat. Read this from the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/11/opinion/11schmidt.html?sq=bad%20brakes&st=cse&adxnnl=1&scp=1&adxnnlx=1268755346-vq/8qoKywOKiazHweontwQ. Have your wife read it! Trading in a perfectly good Prius on ANY deal is going to cost you thousands. And you won't have a hybrid. Take a deep breath.

 

That was especially true before electronic throttle and brake control, and undoubtedly that is still the case with many Toyota incidents.

 

However, if you read the details of these incidents and look at the data regarding SUA reports that increased considerably at exactly the same time Toyota introduced ETC then it should be apparent to the most casual observer that Toyota has a real problem.

[lolder]

That was especially true before electronic throttle and brake control, and undoubtedly that is still the case with many Toyota incidents.

 

However, if you read the details of these incidents and look at the data regarding SUA reports that increased considerably at exactly the same time Toyota introduced ETC then it should be apparent to the most casual observer that Toyota has a real problem.

Where could I find that information? I'd like to read it. My mind is not completely closed on the issue. The secrecy of the info in the Event Data Recorders is troubling. The article I referenced was very compelling to me, especially the part about the initial SUAs disappearing after Brake-Shifting interlocks were introduced. I can see stray RF getting into electronics and causing very brief anomalies but nothing that lasts as long as the reported incidents and leaves no trace. As software goes, these cars are not that complicated, especially electronic throttles that get design reviewed to death.

Of all the PEOPLE you know, what percentage of them do you think are (even slightly?) unbalanced?

[Goodbyeprius]

I think ALL of the "runaways" are driver pedal error or scammers except the sticky (not runaway) pedals and the jammed floor mat. Read this from the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/11/opinion/11schmidt.html?sq=bad%20brakes&st=cse&adxnnl=1&scp=1&adxnnlx=1268755346-vq/8qoKywOKiazHweontwQ. Have your wife read it! Trading in a perfectly good Prius on ANY deal is going to cost you thousands. And you won't have a hybrid. Take a deep breath.

 

I hear what your saying and we are trying to be rational but I dont think toyota knows whats wrong. There was a recall to remove the floor mat which had nothing wrong with it I think it was just to buy time. I cant blame my wife for not wanting to drive it alone or with my kids. I know I will lose money but we need a car that we will both drive and my sanity back.

[acdii]

I hear what your saying and we are trying to be rational but I dont think toyota knows whats wrong. There was a recall to remove the floor mat which had nothing wrong with it I think it was just to buy time. I cant blame my wife for not wanting to drive it alone or with my kids. I know I will lose money but we need a car that we will both drive and my sanity back.

 

Seriously man, keep the Prius, the runaway driver was a HOAX, there is NOTHING wrong with the Prius. If you have never had traction control problems that bugged you, like I did, new tires would probably have corrected it, then you should keep the Prius. Believe me, unless you get another Hybrid, you will go into shock after you fill the tank a few times on a non hybrid. It was hard going from 53 MPG down to 18 MPG when I traded my Prius in for a Veracruz, so hard in fact I wound up buying a Camry Hybrid, and drove that for a year and a half until I couldnt take it anymore, and bought the Sport. The sticker shock wasn't as bad going from 36MPG down to 22 MPG.

 

If you are going to get rid of the Prius, cant convince your wife that the car is OK, then go for the Fusion Hybrid, it will get the closest in MPG that you are used to. If you compare options to options, the price difference isnt that much. You can't compare the Hybrid to the SE, they are two different cars option wise, and the Hybrid has more power than the I4 in the SE, it is a closer comparison to the V6 as mentioned above. Many people make that mistake when comparing a hybrid to another car since it has a 4 cylinder motor, but fail to realize the electric motor adds power to the engine. The closer comparison between a base Hybrid would be an SEL V6, not the SE I4.

 

There were several factors in my decision to get rid of the Prius I had, the first was the overly sensitive traction control, new tires would have helped, but I can't see buying new tires for a 10 month old car. The second reason was lack of room, with 2 kids in car seats, there was no more room for the third kid. The third reason was the car was just too small for me to drive comfortably, it needed telescopic steering wheel and it would have been better. The reason I got rid of the Camry Hybrid was overall quality in the car was sub par, and the car handled like a row boat, I needed something that was fun to drive, too many years driving putt putts, and I drive at least 2 hours day, the opportunity to trade up to the Fusion came along, and I did. Do I miss the 36MPG, yep, but I don't miss the car. I do miss getting 53 MPG that I got in the Prius, and if my wife and I weren't car pooling, and I didn't have to drop off and pick up the kids every day, I would reconsider another Prius, only for the fact it gets such great MPG. Overall it is not a bad car, it just did not fit my daily driving needs. I think you are making a big mistake in dumping the Prius, especially if up until now, there were no other complaints. Dumping it now is a knee jerk reaction to a bogus situation. I drove mine with two mats and never ever had a pedal problem. I had the factory mat, and on top was a thin rubber mat, and it was under both pedals, not once did it interfere. I believe you would regret dumping it for a non hybrid car.

[Goodbyeprius]

Seriously man, keep the Prius, the runaway driver was a HOAX, there is NOTHING wrong with the Prius. If you have never had traction control problems that bugged you, like I did, new tires would probably have corrected it, then you should keep the Prius. Believe me, unless you get another Hybrid, you will go into shock after you fill the tank a few times on a non hybrid. It was hard going from 53 MPG down to 18 MPG when I traded my Prius in for a Veracruz, so hard in fact I wound up buying a Camry Hybrid, and drove that for a year and a half until I couldnt take it anymore, and bought the Sport. The sticker shock wasn't as bad going from 36MPG down to 22 MPG.

 

If you are going to get rid of the Prius, cant convince your wife that the car is OK, then go for the Fusion Hybrid, it will get the closest in MPG that you are used to. If you compare options to options, the price difference isnt that much. You can't compare the Hybrid to the SE, they are two different cars option wise, and the Hybrid has more power than the I4 in the SE, it is a closer comparison to the V6 as mentioned above. Many people make that mistake when comparing a hybrid to another car since it has a 4 cylinder motor, but fail to realize the electric motor adds power to the engine. The closer comparison between a base Hybrid would be an SEL V6, not the SE I4.

 

There were several factors in my decision to get rid of the Prius I had, the first was the overly sensitive traction control, new tires would have helped, but I can't see buying new tires for a 10 month old car. The second reason was lack of room, with 2 kids in car seats, there was no more room for the third kid. The third reason was the car was just too small for me to drive comfortably, it needed telescopic steering wheel and it would have been better. The reason I got rid of the Camry Hybrid was overall quality in the car was sub par, and the car handled like a row boat, I needed something that was fun to drive, too many years driving putt putts, and I drive at least 2 hours day, the opportunity to trade up to the Fusion came along, and I did. Do I miss the 36MPG, yep, but I don't miss the car. I do miss getting 53 MPG that I got in the Prius, and if my wife and I weren't car pooling, and I didn't have to drop off and pick up the kids every day, I would reconsider another Prius, only for the fact it gets such great MPG. Overall it is not a bad car, it just did not fit my daily driving needs. I think you are making a big mistake in dumping the Prius, especially if up until now, there were no other complaints. Dumping it now is a knee jerk reaction to a bogus situation. I drove mine with two mats and never ever had a pedal problem. I had the factory mat, and on top was a thin rubber mat, and it was under both pedals, not once did it interfere. I believe you would regret dumping it for a non hybrid car.

 

 

 

Maybe its a hoax and maybe its not but how did the guy kill the brakes or as toyota puts it they were spent if the sytem is suposed to shut down if the accelerator and the brakes are both pressed all the way down. For the same reason you said my wife would like a car that you can put an adult in the back with the 2 kids car seats which is too small in the prius. My 1994 cavalier 5 speed has gotten 39 mpg highway which is awesome so i still have a car that is great on gas. Im going with my wife to look at the Mazda 6 tommorow and if she likes it im buying it.

[akirby]

Maybe its a hoax and maybe its not but how did the guy kill the brakes or as toyota puts it they were spent if the sytem is suposed to shut down if the accelerator and the brakes are both pressed all the way down. For the same reason you said my wife would like a car that you can put an adult in the back with the 2 kids car seats which is too small in the prius. My 1994 cavalier 5 speed has gotten 39 mpg highway which is awesome so i still have a car that is great on gas. Im going with my wife to look at the Mazda 6 tommorow and if she likes it im buying it.

 

He went from the brakes to the accelerator 250 times according to Toyota. He was accelerating, then braking, accelerating, then braking.

[lolder]

He was pressing down just hard enough to fry the brakes without tripping the throttle shutdown. Apparently it takes more than just a light touch on the brakes to trip it. A continuous light touch on the brakes with the throttle open at speed will surely fry them.

[kdaros]

More of the story

 

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62G5B820100318

[akirby]

Now I'm not sure I believe the driver OR Toyota.

[acdii]

"While a final report is not yet complete, there are strong indications that the driver's account of the event is inconsistent with the findings of the preliminary analysis.

 

The investigation revealed the following initial findings:

• The accelerator pedal was tested and found to be working normally with no

mechanical binding or friction. It should be noted that the Prius is not subject to a recall for sticking accelerator pedals and the Prius component is made by a different supplier than the one recalled.

• The front brakes showed severe wear and damage from overheating. The rear brakes and parking brake were in good condition and functional.

• A Toyota carpeted floor mat of the correct type for the vehicle was installed but not secured to the retention hooks. It was not found to be interfering or even touching the accelerator pedal.

• The pushbutton power switch worked normally and shut the vehicle off when depressed for 3 seconds as the 911 operator advised Mr. Sikes to do.

• The shift lever also worked normally and neutral could be selected. The neutral position is clearly marked and can be easily engaged by moving the lever left to the "N" marking.

• There were no diagnostic trouble codes found in the power management computer, nor was the dashboard malfunction indicator light activated.

The hybrid self- diagnostic system did show evidence of numerous, rapidly repeated on-and- off applications of both the accelerator and the brake pedals.

• After examination of individual components, the front brakes were replaced and the vehicle was test driven, during which the vehicle was observed to be functioning normally.

• During testing, the brakes were purposely abused by continuous light application in order to overheat them. The vehicle could be safely stopped by means of the brake pedal, even when overheated.

 

 

Linky

 

Looks to me that it is a HOAX. I had a Prius and put 24K miles on it. There is no way you could stand on the brakes and gas at the same time in that car, the reason being is when you apply the brake it overrides the accelerator and instead of applying power to the drive motors, it reverses and turns them into generators, thereby disconnecting the ICE from the drive train. I'll bet he had it floored, sped up, slammed on the brakes until they got hot to the point they started to fade, and then called 911 and put on the act. Once brakes start to get hot to the point they fade, and you apply and release, they start to burn. In this case they didn't catch fire, but disintegrated instead.

 

BTW it is very easy to fake standing on the brake, just have one foot on the floor, and touch the other to the pedal. I gave the guy the benefit of the doubt, but after seeing what Toyota found, and NHTSA found, and knowing how the Prius works, I have to say he faked it.

 

Some other damning information