HV Battery Upgrade or Plug-in system?

[oldschool1962]

Hey Jon,

 

The point was very well made. Yet I can't stop wondering about.....well let's just say that......that's a great deal of faith to put in a system that is greatly flawed.

 

It's refreshing to see a belief such as you just stated but for me.....there has been far too much bad water under the bridge....especially in recent years. Because of this It's left me down-right cynical and I find it hard to believe that any major Corporation or more precisely the people who run the Corporations are making decisions for the greater good of anyone or thing other than themselves. I would really like to believe contrary but then again.....I think that ship has sailed and now been sunk.

 

Now I say this not knowing what profit-margin is on the vehicle or others like it but............I believe that it is more probable they did the best they possibly could to a point. I'd like to give some examples and realy add more thoughts that this but I'm not comfortable sharing that much out here in cyberspace. All I can really say is that those that were in control did just enough to squeek by. The vehicle will be a seller, it is sharp, and it will perform yet in the same breath......we've just been too conditioned to accept mediocrity as exceptional or to be more concerned about appearance or the "bells and whistles" than about the foundation or core.

 

By saying what I just said doesn't mean that I haven't been guilt of that process, it just means that I recognize it and would like to make a change for the better. No matter what you say or explain.....I will understand your point and probably agree with some part of it. Unfortunately it won't convince me that someone didn't hold something back in the name of profits over and above reasonable and that it couldn't have been done just a bit better and for the same price point.

Edited December 4, 2009 by oldschool1962

[Oman]

Reasonable enough.

 

I'm an engineer so I tend to ignore the politics. I do understand the economics and I do think that there could be improvements if cost wasn't a factor.

 

Jon

 

 

 

 

 

Hey Jon,

 

The point was very well made. Yet I can't stop wondering about.....well let's just say that......that's a great deal of faith to put in a system that is greatly flawed.

 

It's refreshing to see a belief such as you just stated but for me.....there has been far too much bad water under the bridge....especially in recent years. Because of this It's left me down-right cynical and I find it hard to believe that any major Corporation or more precisely the people who run the Corporations are making decisions for the greater good of anyone or thing other than themselves. I would really like to believe contrary but then again.....I think that ship has sailed and now been sunk.

 

Now I say this not knowing what profit-margin is on the vehicle or others like it but............I believe that it is more probable they did the best they possibly could to a point. I'd like to give some examples and realy add more thoughts that this but I'm not comfortable sharing that much out here in cyberspace. All I can really say is that those that were in control did just enough to squeek by. The vehicle will be a seller, it is sharp, and it will perform yet in the same breath......we've just been too conditioned to accept mediocrity as exceptional or to be more concerned about appearance or the "bells and whistles" than about the foundation or core.

 

By saying what I just said doesn't mean that I haven't been guilt of that process, it just means that I recognize it and would like to make a change for the better. No matter what you say or explain.....I will understand your point and probably agree with some part of it. Unfortunately it won't convince me that someone didn't hold something back in the name of profits over and above reasonable and that it couldn't have been done just a bit better and for the same price point.

[HarleyJoel]

What I would like to see is a diesel hybrid.

I totally agree. If they ever offer an affordable conversion for that (which I doubt they would) I would definitely be interested.

[oldschool1962]

Been doing a great deal of thinking about all things involving the FFH these days. Not sure if irt's a good or bad thing so let's be safe and say....... it is what it is. Hehehe

 

A few comments here is basically what started it as well as some of the ad and sales literature. I still have to say that I'm not mincing words or ideas but merely giving a stir to the pot I started on simmer. Even though I think we came to a point where we (those of us that were involved in the discussion) came to an understanding or at least respected each others views..... but...... I have to ask something else about the whole EV thing. The "not designed" comment or idea really has me perplexed.

 

So my question is......If the vehicle is not designed to run in EV mode.........then why is there such a focus placed on the FFH being able to operate in Pure EV mode up to 47mph. Especially since Ford went to great lengths and effort to compare it against the Camry Hybrid, the Prius and the Malibu Hybrid....vehicles that cannot do this.

 

There was also a comment made about Ford touting the battery would last the life of the vehicle. This is not something I would expect nor welcome given the de-tuning of the Hybrid system when compared to the Prius.

 

I say it's detuned because the system will only maintain a Half charge on the battery when....if it is a similar battery to what we have in our Prius....... the Prius allows the battery to become fully charged or at the least 3/4's given the usage. In other words....the Prius will operate in Pure EV mode for longer durations than the FFH.

 

The next thing is that the Traction motor. It was mentioned it is not designed to move the vehicle with much torque. I think this is wrong since what I have found is the level of charge, determines how much the traction motor will do. Every day I go to pick up the DD from school for swim practice, I warm the vehicle up, it gets a full charge and I'm able to use the pure EV mode up a hill that you would think was not possible by that statement. Granted the Speed limit is 25 but I have had to back out of the throttle to keep it at 25 ......going up hill.

 

I expect to replace the Prius battery at 8 years and that was understood when we bought the car. I also expected that when I bought our FFH but now learn different.

 

Quite frankly.....I'd rather have the cash on hand now (and for the next 8 years)through getting better MPG because the battery is being used to it's full and designed capacity rather than have the system over protect the battery just so Ford can claim a "Life Long Battery" in their vehicle. If the battery is not designed to because of .....what ever reason but I have MPO's on that one.......then the same one in the Prius ..... or better.... would...and hopefully should.... be in the works for installation in future vehicles and be made available for those of us that wish to have it installed. That could be an example of why I asked about a better battery in this post. The Price point is already the same as the Prius.......then why isn't the Technology as good or better. Like I said....forget the FFH is in year one....the Technology is not.

 

Just some ramblings but ramblings I believed to be worthy of expressing.

Edited December 11, 2009 by oldschool1962

[lolder]

All the energy in the FFH comes from gasoline. It is always more efficient to drive the wheels directly from the ICE rather than drive a generator, charge a battery, discharge a battery run a motor. The problem is the vast difference in power required to accelerate a two ton vehicle versus drive it at a steady cruise. ICEs run most efficiently at higher power settings. The EV mode is to allow duty cycling of the ICE to run it more efficiently. If you had a 20 hp. ICE also, it would be even more efficient to run only that at lower speeds. That would get complicated. The cycling of the ICE is a method of making the ICE "smaller". The motor/generators and battery are sized for acceleration assist, braking and transmission control. The battery must be kept at partial charge to accept braking energy. An EV system sized like this also allows ICE cycling at lower speeds. Increasing the size of the battery, or the depth of charge/discharge will NOT IMPROVE THE MILEAGE. A lighter battery would help but the manufacturers are worried about LIon types. Once you have a plug in, everything changes but that's another discussion. The first sentence is the controlling factor.

The FFH is not detuned. The battery charge displays in the hybrids have no units so we don't know the percentages. Designers tell us a 30-80%(or less) range is used. The Toyota and Ford systems are identical in function. The Prius is 700 lbs. lighter and has less aerodynamic drag. The TCH actually gets almost identical mileage to the FFH in the real world because they weigh the same and have similar engines. Ford has tweaked (cooked?) the EPA books better. The Ford 47 mph figure is PR! and as you can see from this forum, it backfires somewhat. The higher figure does allow ICE cycling at higher average speeds. 47 mph is probably a good compromise. MG1 max rpm is also a factor.

These are all gasoline cars with elegant electrical/electronic assists. And they are all designed to a gnat's eyebrow to get the best from present technology. Bigger batteries would make things worse because of weight.

 

Lee

[Oman]

The Prius does not use 100% of the total possible battery capacity either. Nor does the Volt. CA requires a minimum 10 year 150,000 mile ZEV parts warranty. This applies to ALL hybrid and all EV batteries. 150,000 miles is the "standard" measurement for the expected lifetime of a new vehicle. Both Ford and Toyota have to design their vehicles and batteries to last this long as the HVB is not considered a consumable under most state warranty laws.

 

You used to be able to buy a reprogramming chip for the Prius that tried to use more of the battery. It did very little for mileage and fried the battery much more quickly. You need to understand charge efficiency ratios and immediate current availability to see why using a battery for energy recapture is different from plugging in an R/C battery at home.

 

You also have to be careful about how you describe "using 100% of the battery". Just like lead acid batteries a single discharge to zero volts will physically damage the cells. No device that uses Nickel-metal-hydride batteries EVER use 100% of the possible storage capacity of the cell.

 

The design of the cells that Ford is using is new and unique. There is no other cell made with the same lifetime, capacity, weight, and environmental characteristics.

 

Jon

 

 

Toyota built their traction motor gearing towards torque and Ford build it towards top EV speed. The traction motor in the FFH is actually *more* powerful than the one in the Prius. It is also a heavier car.

 

Also no one said it wasn't designed to run in EV mode. It isn't designed to run exclusively in EV mode in normal driving. Just like the Prius isn't. The Prius has a little mode switch to force EV only because it isn't easy to keep it in EV mode, just like the FFH isn't.

 

 

 

Been doing a great deal of thinking about all things involving the FFH these days. Not sure if irt's a good or bad thing so let's be safe and say....... it is what it is. Hehehe

 

A few comments here is basically what started it as well as some of the ad and sales literature. I still have to say that I'm not mincing words or ideas but merely giving a stir to the pot I started on simmer. Even though I think we came to a point where we (those of us that were involved in the discussion) came to an understanding or at least respected each others views..... but...... I have to ask something else about the whole EV thing. The "not designed" comment or idea really has me perplexed.

 

So my question is......If the vehicle is not designed to run in EV mode.........then why is there such a focus placed on the FFH being able to operate in Pure EV mode up to 47mph. Especially since Ford went to great lengths and effort to compare it against the Camry Hybrid, the Prius and the Malibu Hybrid....vehicles that cannot do this.

 

There was also a comment made about Ford touting the battery would last the life of the vehicle. This is not something I would expect nor welcome given the de-tuning of the Hybrid system when compared to the Prius.

 

I say it's detuned because the system will only maintain a Half charge on the battery when....if it is a similar battery to what we have in our Prius....... the Prius allows the battery to become fully charged or at the least 3/4's given the usage. In other words....the Prius will operate in Pure EV mode for longer durations than the FFH.

 

The next thing is that the Traction motor. It was mentioned it is not designed to move the vehicle with much torque. I think this is wrong since what I have found is the level of charge, determines how much the traction motor will do. Every day I go to pick up the DD from school for swim practice, I warm the vehicle up, it gets a full charge and I'm able to use the pure EV mode up a hill that you would think was not possible by that statement. Granted the Speed limit is 25 but I have had to back out of the throttle to keep it at 25 ......going up hill.

 

I expect to replace the Prius battery at 8 years and that was understood when we bought the car. I also expected that when I bought our FFH but now learn different.

 

Quite frankly.....I'd rather have the cash on hand now (and for the next 8 years)through getting better MPG because the battery is being used to it's full and designed capacity rather than have the system over protect the battery just so Ford can claim a "Life Long Battery" in their vehicle. If the battery is not designed to because of .....what ever reason but I have MPO's on that one.......then the same one in the Prius ..... or better.... would...and hopefully should.... be in the works for installation in future vehicles and be made available for those of us that wish to have it installed. That could be an example of why I asked about a better battery in this post. The Price point is already the same as the Prius.......then why isn't the Technology as good or better. Like I said....forget the FFH is in year one....the Technology is not.

 

Just some ramblings but ramblings I believed to be worthy of expressing.

[oldschool1962]

Ford has tweaked (cooked?) the EPA books better. The Ford 47 mph figure is PR!

 

All I want to know is what happened to those "Truth in Advertising" laws that were enacted to prevent this crap from happeneing. Maybe I'm too ethical for my own good at times but.............I guess someone has to make up for the seemingly increasing majority of azzhole corps out there that treat ethics like toilet paper. The powers can't keep dismissing "conspiracy theories" when that's all they seem to be involved it. An apple is an apple an orange is an orange and.........a spade is a spade.

 

At least they know the correct use for a spade....to shovel horse..........

[Oman]

You might want to take your car into the dealer to have it checked. Mine does 47MPH on EV regularly. There are several level and slight downhill 45MPH road segments on my commute and if I hold to the speed limit I can do them all in EV mode only. The Prius can *NEVER* do 47MPH in EV mode, no matter how slight you are on the gas.

 

Fords marketing claim is exact and honest. It does up to 47MPH in EV mode. Just accelerate to 47MPH and stay there. You Unless you are going uphill or have already discharged the HVB you will be in EV mode. I'm not sure what the problem is. Ford claims the car is a PZEV - Partial Zero Emission Vehicle. This is a pretty specific classification. It gets the classification because it can run at times without creating any emissions - EV mode. Even the Volt will be a PZEV because it will have emissions after the battery drops to a certain charge level. I don't remember any claim about being able to drive around town with full time zero emissions.

 

Jon

 

 

 

 

All I want to know is what happened to those "Truth in Advertising" laws that were enacted to prevent this crap from happeneing. Maybe I'm too ethical for my own good at times but.............I guess someone has to make up for the seemingly increasing majority of azzhole corps out there that treat ethics like toilet paper. The powers can't keep dismissing "conspiracy theories" when that's all they seem to be involved it. An apple is an apple an orange is an orange and.........a spade is a spade.

 

At least they know the correct use for a spade....to shovel horse..........

[oldschool1962]

I apologize for just skimming thru the replies but I have something going on tonight. I just wanted to say that ya'll have misunderstood what I am trying to say.I didn't believe I was that vague or claiming that the vehicle should run Pure EV all the time. I don't expect it to run in Pure ZEV all the time I would just like to see it be able to recharge and maintain the battery at a higher level of charge.

 

All I am merely trying to say that after having driven my wife's Prius..... and then driving my FFH......the Prius seems to be able to get the battery recharged faster and maintain it at a higher level of charge (based on the gauges....These aren't idiot lights and are gauges and really shoukd represent faily accurate information for the vehicle unless they are no mure usefull than........ T.O.A.B ) and this allows for the EV mode to be used more frequently given our driving habits and what type of terraine, traffic and speed limits we typically drive in. The Prius also utilizes what would be the low setting on the FFH to allow you to charge the battery while moving down a hill. The FFH....or at least ours....does not let you do this but also drains the battery and so you have to apply the brake. This slows the vehicle faster than the "dynamic brake" does.

 

This vehicle is definitely a learning curve.

[lolder]

The FFH charges the battery decelerating or coasting down a hill the same as a Prius. If it gains too much speed and you brake it charges even more. Once the battery is "full", braking uses mechanical friction for stopping. Shifting to L uses engine braking. You DON'T want the battery charged more. It would then not accept regenerative braking energy. Driving farther in EV mode would not increase mileage because then the ICE would have to operate longer to recharge. The gauges are "idiot" gauges, they have no real units (ampere-hours). The Prius computer keeps the battery at about the same true level of charge as the FFH. You cannot compare what the gauges in the two cars read as they have no units. We know they both use the same charging schemes. My FFH can go from .4 to 1.5 miles in EV mode. That's a big variation. Differences in charging times or EV times in the two vehicles does not account for the different mileage. Lower weight, lower aerodynamic drag and a smaller, slower accelerating drive train account for almost all the Prius mpg advantage. Holding your foot on the pedal in P to charge the battery to full before driving off in EV mode wastes fuel.

 

Lee

[Oman]

Actually the "L" selector on the gear shifter enables real engine braking. Engine braking by design and intent "wastes" energy. That is the point. The brakes on the FFH are the energy recovery mechanism. They will recover 100% of the energy until 1) The battery is fully charged, 2) The speed is less than 5MPH, 3) The braking force requested is more than can be created by the force restistance of MG1 and MG2. Using "L" will not force the car to recover more of the energy - the brake pedal does that.

 

Ford designed it this way on purpose. Use "L" only when you want to simulate very low gearing or you want to siphon off energy through the ICE.

 

The brakes can be carefully modulated by the driver. Ford intended for the driver to use the brake pedal, which is the most natural and controllable method available.

 

 

Jon

 

 

I apologize for just skimming thru the replies but I have something going on tonight. I just wanted to say that ya'll have misunderstood what I am trying to say.I didn't believe I was that vague or claiming that the vehicle should run Pure EV all the time. I don't expect it to run in Pure ZEV all the time I would just like to see it be able to recharge and maintain the battery at a higher level of charge.

 

All I am merely trying to say that after having driven my wife's Prius..... and then driving my FFH......the Prius seems to be able to get the battery recharged faster and maintain it at a higher level of charge (based on the gauges....These aren't idiot lights and are gauges and really shoukd represent faily accurate information for the vehicle unless they are no mure usefull than........ T.O.A.B ) and this allows for the EV mode to be used more frequently given our driving habits and what type of terraine, traffic and speed limits we typically drive in. The Prius also utilizes what would be the low setting on the FFH to allow you to charge the battery while moving down a hill. The FFH....or at least ours....does not let you do this but also drains the battery and so you have to apply the brake. This slows the vehicle faster than the "dynamic brake" does.

 

This vehicle is definitely a learning curve.

[oldschool1962]

I was going to continue my thoughts here but something that was just mentioned sparked some different thoughts and another question.

 

Ford designed it this way on purpose. Use "L" only when you want to simulate very low gearing or you want to siphon off energy through the ICE.

 

It's my understanding that the ICE may be siphoning off energy but the energy collected in the ICE is just wasted....plus it draws energy off the battery....that is if you watch the energy flow displayed by the gauges. My point was that it could be used to generate power to be stored in the battery. Otherwise it's wasted energy and there's no reason to capture it....kinda like running a generator with nothing plugged in?

 

Why would Ford design the L setting to be used specifically as a low gear or brake and not allow it to capture the energy like Toyota has?

 

Having to apply the brake pedal as the only means to capture energy is nothing more than riding the brake and I believe it sends the wrong signal to the drivers behind you. I really hate getting behind someone riding the brake. You never know exactly when they are actually stopping. That is why it would have been nice to see the L setting siphon the energy and then be able to capture that energy as stored power in the battery.

 

Just so we don't lose perspective over this conversation........let's just call it two different thought processes.

I can only guess that the frustration may be building on your end because it's getting frustrating on this end. Especially to be told what Ford was intending. In all honesty, I gathered that on my own but as a consumer who just dropped 30+grand on this vehicle and then having driven it.......and with a slightly more than just dangerous working mechanical knowledge.......it doesn't matter what Ford was intending. I'm not the only one out there that would like to see better numbers out of the FFH. Plus I'm beginning to see too much fluff instead of what could have been some tangeable and very slight changes for better Hybrid economy performance. But that's what I get for buying a 1st year issue vehicle. Yet I have stated before.....1st year vehicle but not 1st year technology.

 

Plus the other thing that keeps gnawing at me is I went and bought an American vehicle only to find out it was not made in the USA.

 

I like the ride, the handling and a couple of the fluff things but when it comes down to it......I wanted better hybrid economic performance. Given the ccore of reasons for buying the vehicle in the first place.....this hasn't been said by myself or anyone else yet but.....maybe it needs to be. Maybe....I should have just bought another Prius?

Edited December 12, 2009 by oldschool1962

[Oman]

I didn't mean to sound annoyed... I'm not really.

 

I think Ford did this for several reasons. First off "L" in a traditional car is used to keep the car in a low gear. This is done for two reasons: 1) keep the torque high and the wheel spin low and 2) if at a higher speed to use the resistance of the engine to aid or save braking power. Ford gave the Fusion the exact same behaviors. Their #1 design consideration was to make a hybrid that drove like a car. They wanted the opposite of "look - I'm a hybrid, look at all these things will will work differently".

 

Secondly I think that they had safety in mind. When you are intentionally slowing down you *should* have your brake lights on. Dropping to "L" in conventional car without using the brakes is a sure way to get rear-ended, even going down a hill.

 

Thirdly (is that a word?) "L" is not controllable. You can not control "extra" regen that will be applied. Using the brake pedal for generative braking allows you to precisely control the amount of energy being reclaimed vs. what is applied to your forward motion.

 

Lastly it could save your life. If "L" just increased regen then it would only have 2 options once the battery charged... either stop doing anything, which would suddenly make you go unexpectedly faster or 2) start to switch from regen to friction braking, causing your brakes to heat up and get that much closer to fade out when you don't even have your foot on the brake. Quite frankly both are bad in my book.

 

Jon

 

 

 

 

I was going to continue my thoughts here but something that was just mentioned sparked some different thoughts and another question.

 

 

 

It's my understanding that the ICE may be siphoning off energy but the energy collected in the ICE is just wasted....plus it draws energy off the battery....that is if you watch the energy flow displayed by the gauges. My point was that it could be used to generate power to be stored in the battery. Otherwise it's wasted energy and there's no reason to capture it....kinda like running a generator with nothing plugged in?

 

Why would Ford design the L setting to be used specifically as a low gear or brake and not allow it to capture the energy like Toyota has?

 

Having to apply the brake pedal as the only means to capture energy is nothing more than riding the brake and I believe it sends the wrong signal to the drivers behind you. I really hate getting behind someone riding the brake. You never know exactly when they are actually stopping. That is why it would have been nice to see the L setting siphon the energy and then be able to capture that energy as stored power in the battery.

 

Just so we don't lose perspective over this conversation........let's just call it two different thought processes.

I can only guess that the frustration may be building on your end because it's getting frustrating on this end. Especially to be told what Ford was intending. In all honesty, I gathered that on my own but as a consumer who just dropped 30+grand on this vehicle and then having driven it.......and with a slightly more than just dangerous working mechanical knowledge.......it doesn't matter what Ford was intending. I'm not the only one out there that would like to see better numbers out of the FFH. Plus I'm beginning to see too much fluff instead of what could have been some tangeable and very slight changes for better Hybrid economy performance. But that's what I get for buying a 1st year issue vehicle. Yet I have stated before.....1st year vehicle but not 1st year technology.

 

Plus the other thing that keeps gnawing at me is I went and bought an American vehicle only to find out it was not made in the USA.

 

I like the ride, the handling and a couple of the fluff things but when it comes down to it......I wanted better hybrid economic performance. Given the ccore of reasons for buying the vehicle in the first place.....this hasn't been said by myself or anyone else yet but.....maybe it needs to be. Maybe....I should have just bought another Prius?

[lolder]

I was going to continue my thoughts here but something that was just mentioned sparked some different thoughts and another question.

 

 

 

It's my understanding that the ICE may be siphoning off energy but the energy collected in the ICE is just wasted....plus it draws energy off the battery....that is if you watch the energy flow displayed by the gauges. My point was that it could be used to generate power to be stored in the battery. Otherwise it's wasted energy and there's no reason to capture it....kinda like running a generator with nothing plugged in?

 

Why would Ford design the L setting to be used specifically as a low gear or brake and not allow it to capture the energy like Toyota has?

 

Having to apply the brake pedal as the only means to capture energy is nothing more than riding the brake and I believe it sends the wrong signal to the drivers behind you. I really hate getting behind someone riding the brake. You never know exactly when they are actually stopping. That is why it would have been nice to see the L setting siphon the energy and then be able to capture that energy as stored power in the battery.

 

Just so we don't lose perspective over this conversation........let's just call it two different thought processes.

I can only guess that the frustration may be building on your end because it's getting frustrating on this end. Especially to be told what Ford was intending. In all honesty, I gathered that on my own but as a consumer who just dropped 30+grand on this vehicle and then having driven it.......and with a slightly more than just dangerous working mechanical knowledge.......it doesn't matter what Ford was intending. I'm not the only one out there that would like to see better numbers out of the FFH. Plus I'm beginning to see too much fluff instead of what could have been some tangeable and very slight changes for better Hybrid economy performance. But that's what I get for buying a 1st year issue vehicle. Yet I have stated before.....1st year vehicle but not 1st year technology.

 

Plus the other thing that keeps gnawing at me is I went and bought an American vehicle only to find out it was not made in the USA.

 

I like the ride, the handling and a couple of the fluff things but when it comes down to it......I wanted better hybrid economic performance. Given the ccore of reasons for buying the vehicle in the first place.....this hasn't been said by myself or anyone else yet but.....maybe it needs to be. Maybe....I should have just bought another Prius?

 

The Ice does not collect or siphon off energy. All the energy of the ICE is used either to propel the car, charge the battery, heat the interior or provide braking when desired on long or steep hills. Energy goes into and out of the motor/generators and battery all the time. NOTHING IS WASTED! Your second paragraph is completely erroneous. You needn't ever use L until normal braking fills the battery. You don't have to do it even then, the standard hydraulic brakes come in seamlessly. When you coast, a small amount of drag to mimic a normal car is applied by the electrics and stored in the battery. You never need to ride the brakes to recover energy, just put them on normally (early and moderately). The FFH is as technologically as advanced as the Prius. It is not "detuned". I like the Prius, even it's looks. My relatives and friends have a lot of Prius's and I would have bought one in the C4C if the FFH had not come out and had such good reviews. The FFH is a bigger, heavier, more powerful, smoother riding, quieter car. It has excellent hybrid performance. The FFH rear camera option was cheaper and I like the SYNC, CTA and BLIS and enclosed trunk and will get the $1700 tax credit. IT GETS 10 mpg LESS THAN THE PRIUS! I knew this when I bought it. I'm delighted with it. Maybe you need to trade it in on another Prius. But then the VW Jetta TDI gets better highway mileage than the Prius. I have owned a Japanese car built in Japan and one built in Kentucky and they were both good. My last Ford, a Grand Marquis was built in Canada. I have never owned a German car. I even had a little trouble buying the Japan built car in 1981. I am 72 and remember. The fact that the FFH was built by a US company even in Mexico was a factor. Do not believe that this car has unnecessary compromises.

 

Lee

Edited December 13, 2009 by lolder

[Oman]

I agree with everything here, except maybe one thing that could be clarified. In "L" the car is designed to "lose" energy through the ICE. This energy is lost, as it is not converted into energy in the battery. So the ICE can actually dissipate energy from the system but this isn't a normal mode. As far as I know the "B" mode of the Prius works the same way.

 

If you want higher mileage you get a Prius. Lighter car, poorer acceleration and ride, better mileage. They are technically equivalent but made different trade-offs. I have been in a Prius a number of times and I certainly made the right decision for me. The 10MPG is no where near worth what I would be giving up. 10MPG over 40 is nothing compared to 25 MPG over 15 (Prius over FFH vs. FFH over my old truck).

 

Jon

 

 

The Ice does not collect or siphon off energy. All the energy of the ICE is used either to propel the car, charge the battery, heat the interior or provide braking when desired on long or steep hills. Energy goes into and out of the motor/generators and battery all the time. NOTHING IS WASTED! Your second paragraph is completely erroneous. You needn't ever use L until normal braking fills the battery. You don't have to do it even then, the standard hydraulic brakes come in seamlessly. When you coast, a small amount of drag to mimic a normal car is applied by the electrics and stored in the battery. You never need to ride the brakes to recover energy, just put them on normally (early and moderately). The FFH is as technologically as advanced as the Prius. It is not "detuned". I like the Prius, even it's looks. My relatives and friends have a lot of Prius's and I would have bought one in the C4C if the FFH had not come out and had such good reviews. The FFH is a bigger, heavier, more powerful, smoother riding, quieter car. It has excellent hybrid performance. The FFH rear camera option was cheaper and I like the SYNC, CTA and BLIS and enclosed trunk and will get the $1700 tax credit. IT GETS 10 mpg LESS THAN THE PRIUS! I knew this when I bought it. I'm delighted with it. Maybe you need to trade it in on another Prius. But then the VW Jetta TDI gets better highway mileage than the Prius. I have owned a Japanese car built in Japan and one built in Kentucky and they were both good. My last Ford, a Grand Marquis was built in Canada. I have never owned a German car. I even had a little trouble buying the Japan built car in 1981. I am 72 and remember. The fact that the FFH was built by a US company even in Mexico was a factor. Do not believe that this car has unnecessary compromises.

 

Lee

[Spiffster]

The FFH is was not designed to be a plug-in or full electric vehicle. It is designed to recover energy that would be lost in braking for re-use and to allow the gas engine to shut down whenever it is not needed for motive power. It therefore does not have a traction motor large enough to accelerate the car at any reasonable speed without the help of the gas engine. The battery technology used was chosen to fit this need and will handle tens of thousands of charge/recharge cycles which happen constantly during a drive session.

 

A plug-in hybrid (would that be a hybrid hybrid?) would have been built differently from the ground-up and would have different components in a number of areas. For instance they would have likely put in a much smaller/lighter gas engine and a larger traction motor. They would have also used a different battery technology and changed the charging logic.

 

The fact is that there are always trade-offs. The FFH was designed to be a gasoline powered mid-size car with great mileage. You can't build a car that works just like a gas car when you don't plug it in, then plug it in and have it be an electric car.

 

The Volt will be pretty pathetic when it runs out of wall-power. They can make a good electric car with limited distance, they can make a good gas car with longer distance, but they can't yet (and are not very close) make a good either-or car.

 

 

Jon

 

The electric, im sorry, traction motor in the FFH is capable of producing 106HP and therefore has potentially enough power to accelerate the car at reasonable speed. The traction motor's output is limited to 35hp by the battery. A battery upgrade could, in theory, allow greater acceleration and top speed in ev mode. That is not to say that the software (and possibly hardware) would need to be altered to handle the larger battery.

 

Source: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/112_0901_2010_ford_fusion_hybrid_2009_toyota_camry_hybrid/powertrain_differences.html

[lolder]

Greater acceleration and top speed in EV mode would mean WORSE mpg. I know this may be a little difficult to understand but the EV mode has more losses than the ICE mode at higher speeds. When all the energy comes from gas, EV mode should be kept to the minimum necessary to improve the brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) of the ICE when it's running. Once you have done that by transmission gearing, ICE duty cycling , regenerative braking, any further EV mode operation is wasteful. Trust us on this, it's an engineering energy efficiency thing. Now, once you have a plug in where energy also comes from the electrical grid, everything changes and bigger better batteries and motors are required. This has all new engineering parameters. There will also be the charger, battery charge/discharge and motor losses in a PHEV system. It basically takes the same amount of energy to move a 3800 lb. 5 passenger air-conditioned car down the highway at 60 mph no matter what the source and it's a LOT of energy. Energy is measured in terms like BTU or kwh. Energy should be priced that way and in the long term pressures force it that way. For many reasons, there are differences in energy costs between the different types of energy. Right now, energy from the electrical grid has a small advantage. Once millions of vehicles begin charging from it and the government levies a road use tax on it, there may be no advantage. One lasting advantage is when the electrical grid is powered by renewable, non-carbon footprint sources. That is an ecological advantage but it may not be an economic advantage. Lets see how the LiIon batteries hold up in many thousands of cycles and 10s of thousands of cars. Or you can be an early adopter. You are not an early adopter in buying the FFH or a Prius. In the meantime, you've bought a nice comfortable state of the art, marketable car.

 

Lee

Edited December 14, 2009 by lolder

[Spiffster]

I agree 100%, but to clarify, I was referring to its supposed shortcoming as a plug-in hybrid as stated in the quote. I am not an engineer by any means and Im sure the conversion would be easier said than done. A bigger battery would have to be charged from the grid. This is how how the Prius plug-in conversion works right? So why did ford decide to use such a powerful traction motor at 106hp (im talking potential output here)? I would not be surprised if this is the motor to be used in the all electric Focus due out in 2011.

[lolder]

I agree 100%, but to clarify, I was referring to its supposed shortcoming as a plug-in hybrid as stated in the quote. I am not an engineer by any means and Im sure the conversion would be easier said than done. A bigger battery would have to be charged from the grid. This is how how the Prius plug-in conversion works right? So why did ford decide to use such a powerful traction motor at 106hp (im talking potential output here)? I would not be surprised if this is the motor to be used in the all electric Focus due out in 2011.

 

Could be but the motors appear to be integrally built into the hybrid transaxle/eCVT. In some ICE modes, MG1 generates power that is added to battery power and given to the big MG2. Braking may produce an even bigger MG2 generator load. It seems to charge the battery faster in a high speed stop. The size of MG2 may also be looking ahead to a PHEV LiIon Fusion although probably not as a retrofit. These are very efficient and sophisticated motor/generators. They say that if you put one of the permanent magnets on your refrigerator door, you'd need a tool to get it off! They are high-voltage (800+?) 3 phase AC, synchronous, brushless permanent magnet motors. Electric motor ratings have a big temperature factor and some of them can provide several times their rated power for short periods. These MGs are also water cooled, I think. I have a friend with an infrared temperature gun and we're going to check out the EV system coolant temperature soon. Today's PHEV Prius announcement is interesting. Extending EV mode to 60 mph will spin MG1 much faster unless there are clutches or changed gearing which would be expensive. They may have raised the RPM limit. Current Prius owners are looking to hack the present EV speed limit or use kits. If older MG1s can take the higher speeds they may be OK but that's unnecessary in a HEV Prius. You only need to do that for the PHEV. If they're not rated for the higher rpm, the disintegration's are going to be spectacular.

 

Lee

Edited December 15, 2009 by lolder