Brake FAILURE on NYC!!!

[akirby]

That seems to be always my luck. The dealer made it sound like it was just effecting that dealership. Because I originally took it to the closest one and asked for a rental. They said I had to get the rental from the place I bought it. So I guess not only do you have to do your research on your purchase but also the place your purchasing it from. Thought all dealerships were the same.

 

Sorry If I'm sounding negative. Really do love this car. First car ever where I have wanted to keep it for the long haul.

 

Ford simply gives the dealer a fixed amount to cover rental car costs for warranty work (or they used to - that could have changed). But in the end it's up to the dealer to give you a loaner, rental, etc.

[mmalc]

Anyone hear of this issue?

This happened to me a second time today.

It happened first on New Year's Eve (rather alarmingly for my SO as she was driving, and just about to turn off a freeway). In common with other reports, stopping the car and restarting it remedied the problem. I took it to the dealer as soon as possible afterwards. It seems that, like me, they hadn't heard of the problem before, and their solution was to replace the vacuum pump (under warranty).

It happened to me, though, this evening. Fortunately first time it happened in a car park and I was able to cycle the car readily enough. It happened again though shortly afterwards as I was heading home on the freeway (light traffic, and traveling deliberately *slowly*, but disconcerting enough nevertheless.

 

As points of note: Mine is a very early Hybrid, I got one of the first deliveries in the area. It also has a secondary alarm system fitted to it (by the dealer). I will be taking it back for service tomorrow (and not diving anywhere other than to the dealership), and alerting them to the issue. I'll also be making a case for getting a refund on the alarm system...

Edited January 24, 2010 by mmalc

[lolder]

This is a known problem and the dealers should be aware of it. All the hybrid brake systems are similar. They are completely different from non-hybrids. You don't lose your brakes, you lose the regenerative part which you're using 95% of the time. The pedal travels down another inch or so and you get boosted hydraulic brakes. It is very disconcerting. If there's an accident, there will probably be a recall. The 2010 Prius is having fits with its brakes because the ABS system is releasing them for a fraction of a second over bumps and ice patches. If I had this FFH brake problem once, I would insist on the TSB being performed unless there is new technical information on the contrary. Read this about the brakes. http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/Article/59197/Tech_Featu.aspx

 

Lee

Edited January 24, 2010 by lolder

[DaveM]

This is a known problem and the dealers should be aware of it. All the hybrid brake systems are similar. They are completely different from non-hybrids. You don't lose your brakes, you lose the regenerative part which you're using 95% of the time. The pedal travels down another inch or so and you get boosted hydraulic brakes. It is very disconcerting. If there's an accident, there will probably be a recall. The 2010 Prius is having fits with its brakes because the ABS system is releasing them for a fraction of a second over bumps and ice patches. If I had this FFH brake problem once, I would insist on the TSB being performed unless there is new technical information on the contrary. Read this about the brakes. http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/Article/59197/Tech_Featu.aspx

 

Lee

I have had many cars since ABS came out and I can't think for the life of me one that didn't do what you say the Prius is doing.

[lolder]

Yes, apparently it is inherent. The problem seems to be that with the regen brakes, you loose it all for that brief moment since there's no way they can individually brake only one front wheel used in regen. With hydraulics, you can release individually within stability constraints. Any brake experts here? The FFH appears to have a hydraulic brake power actuator that is operated by computer. It all goes through the ABS control unit. It sounds more complicated than even the eCVT.

[acdii]

I have had many cars since ABS came out and I can't think for the life of me one that didn't do what you say the Prius is doing.

 

I had a Prius, the systems in that car are very sensitive to road conditions. A little wheel slip and the entire system shuts down for a second or two. With the factory tires they had on it, very poor traction in wet or loose conditions, so the TC kicked in a lot. It was so bad that we got rid of the car, we just didn't feel safe driving it. There is a county road we take in the morning that we have to turn off from onto a two lane highway, and there is always loose gravel on the road, and the traffic is usually moving pretty fast, so getting out and up to speed is a must, with the Prius though it was tricky, a little slip and the power was gone. We then got a Camry Hybrid, although it was better , didnt have the TC problems of the Prius, it too has braking problems as mentioned above, hit a bump and the regen braking shuts off, and you have to panic stop. It also had a slight surge at times when slowing down, I don't mean the regen kicks off, the car sped up, you could see the engine apply power on the dash. Between these problems and the poor overall quality of the materials, we dumped it and bought a Fusion. I have 9300 miles on it now, and not a single complaint.

[lolder]

I had a Prius, the systems in that car are very sensitive to road conditions. A little wheel slip and the entire system shuts down for a second or two. With the factory tires they had on it, very poor traction in wet or loose conditions, so the TC kicked in a lot. It was so bad that we got rid of the car, we just didn't feel safe driving it. There is a county road we take in the morning that we have to turn off from onto a two lane highway, and there is always loose gravel on the road, and the traffic is usually moving pretty fast, so getting out and up to speed is a must, with the Prius though it was tricky, a little slip and the power was gone. We then got a Camry Hybrid, although it was better , didnt have the TC problems of the Prius, it too has braking problems as mentioned above, hit a bump and the regen braking shuts off, and you have to panic stop. It also had a slight surge at times when slowing down, I don't mean the regen kicks off, the car sped up, you could see the engine apply power on the dash. Between these problems and the poor overall quality of the materials, we dumped it and bought a Fusion. I have 9300 miles on it now, and not a single complaint.

 

So the FFH doesn't exhibit those symptoms on the same roads? I have never had a ABS or traction event in 6 months in S. Florida. If so that's a major accomplishment. It has been rumored that in the Ford-Toyota patent agreements, Ford had some better control algorithms to exchange for the Toyota cross licensing.

 

Lee

[acdii]

So the FFH doesn't exhibit those symptoms on the same roads? I have never had a ABS or traction event in 6 months in S. Florida. If so that's a major accomplishment. It has been rumored that in the Ford-Toyota patent agreements, Ford had some better control algorithms to exchange for the Toyota cross licensing.

 

Lee

 

I cant tell you that, I don't have the Hybrid model. :( We couldnt afFORD one. But I did get a SPORT :D It is like night and day compared to the Toyota's. I did test drive the Fusion H, and it is a nicer driving car than the Camry H, the battery was too low to effectively get it into EV mode, but the braking did hold when hitting bumps, where the Camry would be disengaged.

Edited January 26, 2010 by acdii

[seamusbleu]

Just brought it in for the first oil change and tire rotation (~6K miles). On the way to work, brake warning lights come on. Same thing on the way home. Turned off the car, and the light cleared, but it came back again. Stopped by the dealership. They're mystified. Scheduled to bring it back in 2 days.

[Oman]

Most US built cars have the type of ABS system where the front wheels are split from the rear. Any time either of the two front wheels slip the system modulates the fluid pressure to the fronts (both) , and if either of the rears slips it modulates the power to the rears (both). I have only driven one car so far that did not have this issue (an Audi if I remember). This is a problem here in Minnesota because in the Winter we sometimes get ice along the right gutter/curb coming into intersections. The inside wheels have great traction but the outside are on ice. When the outsides (front and rear) slip it cuts braking power to all four wheels because it can't control the 4 independently. This has sent drivers through intersections where they *could* have stopped if there was no ABS. Now this is a specific situation but one I run into at least 2-3 times per Winter.

 

99% of the time ABS helps to reduce the stopping distance and is a great safety feature but I wish they would deal with this issue.

 

Jon

 

 

 

Just brought it in for the first oil change and tire rotation (~6K miles). On the way to work, brake warning lights come on. Same thing on the way home. Turned off the car, and the light cleared, but it came back again. Stopped by the dealership. They're mystified. Scheduled to bring it back in 2 days.

[lolder]

Just brought it in for the first oil change and tire rotation (~6K miles). On the way to work, brake warning lights come on. Same thing on the way home. Turned off the car, and the light cleared, but it came back again. Stopped by the dealership. They're mystified. Scheduled to bring it back in 2 days.

Did this occur after the tire rotation? Precisely what lights or messages displayed? Did the pedal feel different?

[seamusbleu]

Did this occur after the tire rotation? Precisely what lights or messages displayed? Did the pedal feel different?

It says check brake system. The dealership said that Ford told them to replace the battery (the "small" one). That was about 2 weeks ago. Today, the message came back. The brakes seem to feel and work fine.

[lolder]

It says check brake system. The dealership said that Ford told them to replace the battery (the "small" one). That was about 2 weeks ago. Today, the message came back. The brakes seem to feel and work fine.

I guess it's back to the dealer again for you. Document each incident.

[seamusbleu]

Did this occur after the tire rotation? Precisely what lights or messages displayed? Did the pedal feel different?

I've got a picture of the dashboard, so now I can say exactly which lights are displayed.

 

In the bottom right corner of the dash is the "Brake System Warning" light. According to the manual, this indicates low brake fluid level. No, I haven't checked the level, but presumably, the dealership would have checked it. And now it is on my list of things to look at.

 

In the upper left, the "Check brake system/Brake fluid level low (RTT)". This is supposed to indicate brake system not operating properly or low fluid level. There is another, smaller version of that light in the extreme upper left corner as well.

 

I should add that the lights did come on when I had a chance to drive it recently. The brakes still felt completely normal, and brake regeneration, as shown on the dashboard, was still functioning, even when the warning lights were on.

 

I wish I had the car in front of me to do some more checking, but the car has become my wife's car. It's at the dealership now (again), so we'll see what they say.

[autoxr1]

Is this electronic braking system unique to the hybrid or is it used on other Fusion models as well?

 

This brake system is unique to the Hybrid. This technology is required to be able to do regeneration of power into the batteries when the brake pedal is depressed.

 

I would also like to clarify that the brakes don't "go out" or "fail", as some have stated. You simply need to push the pedal further to activate the hydraulic brakes in the latter portion of the pedal travel. It does feel disconcerting, though, since you expect to get the normal "power brake" response when pushing the pedal.

[seamusbleu]

The car has been in the shop well over a week this time. I haven't been able to talk to the guy who's been working on it, so I'm short on details. They've been talking with "the engineers", so it's new to them, and important enough that it's gone up the food chain, at least somewhat. I saw the list of parts they have on order. The only one I can remember was a "controller" (for the brakes). It had a >$300 price - glad it's under warranty. The parts look to be in, so hopefully, it will get done tomorrow.

 

I'd sure like to know if they found something concrete (I doubt it), or they are going by the engineer's best guess (probably).

[seamusbleu]

Got the car back, and apparently, the problem was a vacuum leak in the check valve in the booster hose assembly. The local technician found it, even though the Ford hotline first said there wasn't a check valve in the hose. This was after they had already done a bunch of other part replacements and tests. Hopefully, this will be the end of the check brake light warnings.