Engine Warning Light

[tonifan]

On Friday last week, I parked at work as usual. That evening as I started home, I noticed that the "Check Engine" light was on. I ran the Vehicle Health Report (VHR), and the two first areas on the VHR list that have to do with the (a) engine/transmission, or (B) brakes/catalytic converter indicated that something may be wrong, and that I should take it to the dealer. The Owner's Manual indicates that, if the Check Engine light comes on when first starting the car, nothing was wrong. If the light came on and stayed on, I could drive the car, but should have it checked out at the service department at my nearest Ford dealer. If the light came on and flashed continuously, I definitely should take the car in IMMEDIATELY. I took my FFH to the dealer for a checkup the next day; they found that Ford has noted that this is an ongoing issue, and that Ford currently has no "cure" (idea of what it's caused by). They re-set the car, and I asked if that re-set would cause me to lose my Sync phone settings, my Sirius radio settings, Sync Directions and Information, etc., and they said no. When I got in the car today, I noticed immediately that I had lost my Bluetooth connection to my phone. I mentioned this to the service technician, and I noticed that a Blackberry (not my phone type) was set up on the car now. I tried to reconnect my phone, and during the process, my phone reconnected itself (without the usual Linking Process). I thanked the technician, and thought I was good to go. I started the car up again; the Bluetooth function was working correctly with my phone, but NOW the "Check Engine" light was back ON. So, the service technician re-set the car again, and the troublesome "Check Engine" light stayed OFF. So, again, Ford says that this is an ongoing issue, not just with FFHs, but with other Ford vehicles, i.e., F150 Trucks.

 

Has anyone else had this issue? I'm just hoping that when I drive home tonight the light won't come on again. If it does, I've been told to just keep driving the car. Hmmm. So, I asked the service technician (and the service manager) what happens if the light is on, I'm ignoring it (as suggested), and something actually DOES go wrong. I got the old, "Well, if smoke comes out of the engine(s) or the braking has problems, or anything else physical happens, then there's a real problem that can be addressed. Opinions, anyone?

[rfruth]

If they can't resolve the issue(s) get it in writing (on their company letter head, not a post-it note) they told you to just keep driving, get the sales AND service manager to sign & date it :( something is fishy here

[akirby]

As long as the CEL is not flashing it's fine to drive the car. It is possible this is a problem that Ford hasn't figured out yet. It's also possible your dealer is misdiagnosing it. Take it to another dealer for a second opinion next time.

[rfruth]

if the light is on something is wrong (more eyeballs = good IMO ((second opinion))) there could be a slight over fueling of the engine going on thus fouling the plugs & harming the catalytic converter in the process, it very well could be nothing, have the codes been pulled ?

[Oman]

Ask them to print out the code list and then post it here (there will usually be a bunch, some are not problems). It would be interesting to compare if someone else starts to have problems. What is your mileage?

 

Jon

 

 

if the light is on something is wrong (more eyeballs = good IMO ((second opinion))) there could be a slight over fueling of the engine going on thus fouling the plugs & harming the catalytic converter in the process, it very well could be nothing, have the codes been pulled ?

[akirby]

if the light is on something is wrong (more eyeballs = good IMO ((second opinion))) there could be a slight over fueling of the engine going on thus fouling the plugs & harming the catalytic converter in the process, it very well could be nothing, have the codes been pulled ?

 

The PCM takes that into account when it decides to make the light solid or flashing. Flashing usually indicates a combustion problem that can damage the cats - that's when you don't want to continue driving it. Solid light is usually a pressure problem (loose fuel cap, etc.).

[Slip]

Most definitley get a second opinion if they haven't fixed the problem. Could be a misdiagnose. Resetting the light can work for a couple of seconds up to a couple of days. The car has to go through a specified drive cycle sometimes before it comes back on if there is a hard fault.

[tonifan]

Reply to Oman:

 

Mileage is currently just over 1,600. They "fixed" it (warning light went out), but this morning as soon as I accelerated to get into traffic, the Engine Warning Light came back on again.

[tonifan]

Reply to rfruth:

 

The only code that was pulled was P0400, and that indicates something with the EGR. Sooo, I'll wait and see what happens on Saturday when I take it back again. I did run the VHR again today, and it indicated that service was required on: Engine, Transmission & Emissions AND Brakes and Suspension. The mystery continues.

[tonifan]

Reply to akirby:

 

The FFH does not have a fuel cap; only the cap-less fuel filler, so it may not be a loose filler cap.

[rfruth]

Thanks for filling everyone in ton, hopefully you just have a silly problem such as a pinched vacuum hose - I suspect akirby knows about the capless fuel filler but I didn't know that the PCM takes into account the problem when it decides to make the light solid or flashing, one person I know of has learned something so tnx for bringing this up :)

[rpreuss]

Reply to akirby:

 

The FFH does not have a fuel cap; only the cap-less fuel filler, so it may not be a loose filler cap.

 

But the capless seal could leak, and that would be the same as a loose cap.

[tonifan]

Reply to rpreuss:

 

 

Thanks for the tip. I believe you may be correct. It's just a little tough when one suggests to their service technician that someone on an online blog (even if it's FFH enthusiasts like us) could POSSIBLY know ANYTHING about the error codes, etc., when after all, THEY are the mechanic. But, I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope that someone eventually figures it out.

[akirby]

Reply to akirby:

 

The FFH does not have a fuel cap; only the cap-less fuel filler, so it may not be a loose filler cap.

 

I wasn't suggesting that was your problem - it was just an example of the CEL light coming on when it was still safe to drive.

[tonifan]

Further Reply to rpreuss:

 

Here's the actual, official "Word" from Ford, (and I quote):

 

"20797 2010 FUSION/MILAN HYBRID - DTC P0400 EGR FLOW

SOME 2010 FUSION/MILAN HYBRID VEHICLES MAY EXHIBIT THE CHECK ENGINE LAMP

ILLUMINATING ACCOMPANIED BY DTC P0400 FOR EGR FLOW. IF NORMAL DIAGNOSTICS DO

NOT LEAD TO A ROOT CAUSE, CLEAR THE CODE AND RELEASE THE VEHICLE. ENGINEERING

IS CURRENTLY INVESTIGATING THIS CONDITION. MONITOR OASIS FOR UPDATES.

EFFECTIVE DATE: 05/15/2009"

 

My friend (who was a mechanic for Lincoln Mercury for 30+ years), says that the word "OASIS" mentioned in the next-to-the-last line of the quote above, is a source for answers to questions, conditions, or issues related to a specific code, which, in this case, is "DTC P0400 EGR FLOW" which I believe relates to the fuel filler area of the car.

 

What all this means is, of course, that they're in the dark about the situation until a specific answer comes up. Meanwhile, I just drive the car around until something REALLY goes wrong, (smoke coming from the engine, high-pitched whining noises, etc.) which would make the "Check Engine" light blink on and off continuously. Sooo, I guess it's better not to put black electrical tape over the Check Engine light to keep my OCD at rest. :banghead:

 

And have a nice day... :censored:

[tonifan]

Further Reply to rpreuss:

 

Here's the actual, official "Word" from Ford, (and I quote):

 

"20797 2010 FUSION/MILAN HYBRID - DTC P0400 EGR FLOW

SOME 2010 FUSION/MILAN HYBRID VEHICLES MAY EXHIBIT THE CHECK ENGINE LAMP

ILLUMINATING ACCOMPANIED BY DTC P0400 FOR EGR FLOW. IF NORMAL DIAGNOSTICS DO

NOT LEAD TO A ROOT CAUSE, CLEAR THE CODE AND RELEASE THE VEHICLE. ENGINEERING

IS CURRENTLY INVESTIGATING THIS CONDITION. MONITOR OASIS FOR UPDATES.

EFFECTIVE DATE: 05/15/2009"

 

My friend (who was a mechanic for Lincoln Mercury for 30+ years), says that the word "OASIS" mentioned in the next-to-the-last line of the quote above, is a source for answers to questions, conditions, or issues related to a specific code, which, in this case, is "DTC P0400 EGR FLOW" which I believe relates to the fuel filler/catalytic converter area of the car.

 

What all this means is, of course, that they're in the dark about the situation until a specific answer comes up. Meanwhile, I just drive the car around until something REALLY goes wrong, (smoke coming from the engine, high-pitched whining noises, etc.) which would make the "Check Engine" light blink on and off continuously. Sooo, I guess it's better not to put black electrical tape over the Check Engine light to keep my OCD at rest. :banghead:

 

And have a nice day... :censored:

[rtw819]

Here's the actual, official "Word" from Ford, (and I quote):

 

"20797 2010 FUSION/MILAN HYBRID - DTC P0400 EGR FLOW

SOME 2010 FUSION/MILAN HYBRID VEHICLES MAY EXHIBIT THE CHECK ENGINE LAMP

ILLUMINATING ACCOMPANIED BY DTC P0400 FOR EGR FLOW. IF NORMAL DIAGNOSTICS DO

NOT LEAD TO A ROOT CAUSE, CLEAR THE CODE AND RELEASE THE VEHICLE. ENGINEERING

IS CURRENTLY INVESTIGATING THIS CONDITION. MONITOR OASIS FOR UPDATES.

EFFECTIVE DATE: 05/15/2009"

 

My friend (who was a mechanic for Lincoln Mercury for 30+ years), says that the word "OASIS" mentioned in the next-to-the-last line of the quote above, is a source for answers to questions, conditions, or issues related to a specific code, which, in this case, is "DTC P0400 EGR FLOW" which I believe relates to the fuel filler area of the car.

 

Hi Tonifan,

 

It might be worth taking a look at the P0400 code info here: http://www.obd-codes.com/p0400 and more details here: http://www.obd-codes.com/faq/egr-explained.php

 

It sounds like a fairly generic condition that can cause some aggrivation! If the OCD part of you just can't deal with the light being on and don't feel like taking/scheduling a trip to the dealership, most auto parts stores (Advance/Autozone, etc.) will read and can clear the code(s)/light for you for free! Or alternatively, if you were to pick up a ScanGaugeII you can do it yourself. Just keep a log of when and how many times the CIL comes on and/or when you have it reset, should the condition become worse or more serious. Or, pester the heck out of the dealership if you like. At least you have an alternative to leaving the light lit and not knowing for sure what the car is complaining about. It sounds like they are still trying to figure this EGR issue out (and it may take a while). Thankfully our FFH has not had any issues so far (knock on wood) at just over 3500 miles.

 

Just a couple of thoughts.

[tonifan]

Reply to rtw819:

 

What is a ScanGaugeII? I've seen the Ford service dept. re-set the "Service Engine" light on my FFH, but they hook up a computer to the car (somewhere). I have a MacBook notebook computer; will it be necessary to hook it up to the car? I doubt the dealer used a MacBook; wondering about compatibility if a computer hook-up is necessary. Thanks for info on sites to go to for the particular error code that my car is giving. Any helpful advice on the ScanGaugeII and its use will be greatly appreciated.

[rfruth]

A ScanGauge is a useful tool (that I don't have)

 

Scangauge link

[ralteredstates]

ScanGuage is a type of code checking and resetting electronic tool that you can purchase at any auto parts store or on line. What I don't get about the whole issue is Ford has to program the car's computer to come up with an error code (and dash light) when something specific goes wrong. Why don't they know what is wrong? They are the ones who built the car and programed the computer to monitor all functions. So now they are saying their own error code doesn't make sense to them? :doh:

[akirby]

ScanGuage is a type of code checking and resetting electronic tool that you can purchase at any auto parts store or on line. What I don't get about the whole issue is Ford has to program the car's computer to come up with an error code (and dash light) when something specific goes wrong. Why don't they know what is wrong? They are the ones who built the car and programed the computer to monitor all functions. So now they are saying their own error code doesn't make sense to them? :doh:

 

The error code is simply a symptom - something that the computer noticed that is out of spec. It doesn't tell you WHY something happened. It's like going to the doctor and saying once a week my right big toe hurts and my blood pressure shoots up and I get a cramp in my left arm. They're just symptoms and don't explain the cause.

 

In this case Ford has to figure out what could cause the code to appear under those circumstances and if they can't reproduce it in the lab then it's very hard to do. Not really any different than diagnosing computer system problems (which in fact this could be).

[rtw819]

What is a ScanGaugeII? I've seen the Ford service dept. re-set the "Service Engine" light on my FFH, but they hook up a computer to the car (somewhere). I have a MacBook notebook computer; will it be necessary to hook it up to the car? I doubt the dealer used a MacBook; wondering about compatibility if a computer hook-up is necessary. Thanks for info on sites to go to for the particular error code that my car is giving. Any helpful advice on the ScanGaugeII and its use will be greatly appreciated.

 

Hi Tonifan, no problem! When you have a chance, check out the ScanGauge II at this link: http://www.scangauge.com/products/

 

Oh, by the way, no PC/Mac required! This is a stand-alone nifty little module which interfaces with almost any car's (made after 1996) diagnostic connector. Take a look at the photo section -- they have some nice pictures.

 

It's a sharp looking gizmo and a nice tool all in one.

[ralteredstates]

The error code is simply a symptom - something that the computer noticed that is out of spec. It doesn't tell you WHY something happened. It's like going to the doctor and saying once a week my right big toe hurts and my blood pressure shoots up and I get a cramp in my left arm. They're just symptoms and don't explain the cause.

 

In this case Ford has to figure out what could cause the code to appear under those circumstances and if they can't reproduce it in the lab then it's very hard to do. Not really any different than diagnosing computer system problems (which in fact this could be).

 

I beg to disagree (slightly) with your analysis. Yes, the code doesn't tell you WHY something happened, it tells you that there is a functional failure in a specific part of the car. For example, right now, my F350 is giving me a code for a failure in the trailer brake controller but specifically the transducer. The codes are very specific unlike the "check engine" light on the dash. All codes were set in the car's computer with a specific component in mind, not a vague idea of what is wrong.

[akirby]

I beg to disagree (slightly) with your analysis. Yes, the code doesn't tell you WHY something happened, it tells you that there is a functional failure in a specific part of the car. For example, right now, my F350 is giving me a code for a failure in the trailer brake controller but specifically the transducer. The codes are very specific unlike the "check engine" light on the dash. All codes were set in the car's computer with a specific component in mind, not a vague idea of what is wrong.

 

Yes, the codes tell you the sensor where the fault occurred. Some parts and codes are more specific than others. In your case it says the transducer is at fault, but you don't know whether it's the transducer itself or a wire going to the transducer. If the transducer is connected to another part it's also possible the other part is causing the transducer to malfunction.

 

Here's a better and more common example. You can get a code for a misfire on cylinder 4. That's all it tells you. Now that could be caused by a bad spark plug or a bad fuel injector or a bad cop (coil) or a bad cop wire or even a PCM malfunction. Or any combination. It simply gives you a starting point for analysis.

 

What about a lean condition on one of the O2 sensors? Does that mean the sensor is bad and needs to be replaced or does it mean there's an engine problem causing it to run lean? No way to tell from the code.

 

A fuel system pressure warning could be anything from a bad gas cap to a leak in the fuel system.

 

There are 5 possible causes for a P0400. What Ford is saying is that in some cases none of the 5 causes are found so they're still trying to figure out why the code was flipped. In most cases this either means a temporary fault in the system that corrects itself or a bug in the PCM code that's throwing the code when it should not. In either case it's not easy to figure out and takes time, especially when the problem can't be reproduced at will.

 

Is that so hard to understand?

[tonifan]

Reply to ralteredstates:

 

I think that the code is a general, overall one that applies to anything in relation to EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) in the car. In other words, it could be the fuel filler cap (NOT one in the FFH), the fuel line near the fuel filler cap (or cap-less fuel filler opening), the dreaded catalytic converter or any sensors that may be in the area. Sooo, according to the San Leandro, California service department, Ford will just keep analyzing the problem (guessing what's wrong) until they come up with a fix. In the mean time, the third re-set of the Check Engine Warning Light they did seems to have done the trick (knock wood). The light hasn't come back on yet, but believe me, every time I start the car I hold my breath, hoping the Check Engine Warning Light doesn't come on again... It's tough having OCD when a non-definable, unpredictable issue like this one comes up. (Is something really wrong? Does it really matter? etc., etc., etc.) :doh: