2015 Ford Fusion Hybrid Titanium battery dies when temp below 60

[Scientist1968]

Hello All,

 

We have 2015 Ford Fusion Hybrid Titanium with 35k miles on it. We live in Texas and our car is parked in open. Mostly we have 70 degrees Fahrenheit plus weather but whenever we have cold weather (60 or below) car battery voltage goes down to 2 volts overnight or so and car won’t start. We have seen this consistently for last 6 months and every 4 or so weeks we get into this situation.

Battery is 1 year old and tests alright, including testing by placing 100Amp of load. Car uses 30 mill amps when engine is turned off and current tested 30mins after car is switched off. That is, parasitic load or drain on battery is within specs.

 

Any help to pinpoint the issue or any suggestions are welcome.

 

Warm regards

[Scientist1968]

Anyone?

[mwr]

I'll reply because no one else has, but I certainly don't have an answer for you. My 2015 FFH has 78K miles, and the temps here at this time in Northern California are pretty much like you describe. Days in the 70s, low at night in the 50s, mornings (when often driving) high 50s/low 60s.. Colder than that in the winter. I've never experienced anything like you describe.

[billford]

On 5/16/2020 at 7:41 PM, Scientist1968 said:

Hello All,

 

We have 2015 Ford Fusion Hybrid Titanium with 35k miles on it. We live in Texas and our car is parked in open. Mostly we have 70 degrees Fahrenheit plus weather but whenever we have cold weather (60 or below) car battery voltage goes down to 2 volts overnight or so and car won’t start. We have seen this consistently for last 6 months and every 4 or so weeks we get into this situation.

Battery is 1 year old and tests alright, including testing by placing 100Amp of load. Car uses 30 mill amps when engine is turned off and current tested 30mins after car is switched off. That is, parasitic load or drain on battery is within specs.

 

Any help to pinpoint the issue or any suggestions are welcome.

 

Warm regards

 

I don't have an answer but it looks like you have done the basics. 

 

The current draw needs be recorded overnight when the problem is acting up. If its high, over .050 amps (50milliamps), something is staying on, its a problem trying to find out what it is. Also, when doing the current draw, you can't break the  battery circuit while connecting the ammeter or you will get false readings. 

 

One easy thing you can try is when you park the car and shift it into park,  make sure the "P" in the dashboard lights up. If it doesn't, there is a park detect switch in the shifter that sticks and drains the battery.  I've seen that problem on F150s before but not Fusions. But its worth paying attention to it. 

 

Techs often use a thermal imaging camera to see whats warm after the car sits for a while, but the problem has to be happening during that time. 

[eisbaer]

Also do not have an answer but can throw in 2c to see.

While you say that the problem only occurs in the "colder" weather which can make it harder to diagnose because the problem isnt persistent and has a rather uncommon variable (its not like you have 0 or below and 70+ at various times.

Anyhow, I would try disconnecting the battery altogether when you anticipate a night that would cause problems is forecast. When you go to start the car, reconnect and see if it starts.

If it starts as normal and the temps would have probably given a no start, as already mentioned, you have a draw in the system somewhere (but if you did it most prob happen everyday...)

If it does the same thing, I would be looking at something like maybe a crack/disconnect in the main harness from the battery. The colder temps may cause an open circuit from shrinkage?

 

When it wont start, do you have to jump it or it wont do anything at all?

 

Please excuse my ignorance if maybe disconnecting it overnight would be bad. This is my first hybrid! ?

[Scientist1968]

Friends, I apologize for not responding earlier as I had given up on any response. But when I Iogged in yesterday to see if I am lucky, you all firmed up my original impression of your generosity. I feel happy.

 

Big thank you mwr for taking a lead to answer my question.

• Your confirmation that you are not facing this problem during similar temperatures as mine, is very helpful.

Great inputs Billford:

• "you can't break the  battery circuit while connecting the ammeter or  you will get false readings."
• make sure the "P" in the dashboard lights up. If it doesn't, there is a park detect switch in the shifter that sticks and drains the battery
• thermal imaging camera to see what's warm after the car sits for a while

Great inputs from Eisbaer too:

• I would try disconnecting the battery altogether when I anticipate a night that would cause problems is forecast then reconnect and see if it starts.

• When it won't start, do you have to jump it or it won't do anything at all? Response: I have to jump it. Then I leave it on for 4 hours to get it back to 12.7 volts from 1-2volts. As it is hybrid, most times engine stays off while HV battery charges low voltage at 14 volts.

1. I have load tested it just now after fully charging it and it is still reads 11volts under 100amp of load.

2. I am planning to disconnect the battery day after tomorrow and see how quickly it goes down by 2 volts to rule out any self-discharge issue.

3. I will redo my parasitic load test following Billford's recommendations of not disconnecting circuit…

Anyone has any other ideas?

 Regards

[murphy]

Has the battery ever been fully discharged?  Wet cell lead acid batteries are damaged when completely discharged.  Material flakes off of the plates and piles up at the bottom of the cell.  If the pile reaches the bottom of the plates it shorts out the cell.

[Scientist1968]

Thank you Murphy. This battery has gone down to 2volts or so many times now. Testing by Autozone, Advanced Auto and by me with 100amp load gives 11volts. As I have mentioned above day after tomorrow, I am planning to disconnect the battery to see if it self discharges. If it does so, that will mean battery has become bad.

I also want to mention that, we have once replaced the battery 4 months back to a new battery, that also died same way (voltage gone down to 2 volts overnight), in 4 weeks. So we ruled out battery then.

[murphy]

The car is loaded with microprocessors.  Some of them never turn off.  There is a constant load on the battery.  If the ones that are supposed to turn off don't, that is a problem.  I have a 2013 Energi.  It had a problem where some wires in the left side of the trunk were laying on top of the edge of a steel panel.  Vibration eventually wore through the insulation and caused a short.  I fixed that problem by wrapping the wires with a large amount of soft foam so it was impossible for the wires to get anywhere near the metal edge.  I also replaced the stock wet cell battery with an AGM battery about 6 months after I bought the car.  That required taking the battery tray out of the car and cutting the end off of it to allow the bigger battery to fit. 

 

The strange part of this problem is that when the battery gets to a certain low voltage the car is supposed to go into sleep mode to reduce the drain even further.  With the Energi, which can be accessed with an app remotely, this results in a notification that the car is sleeping and must be physically accessed to wake it up.

 

Do you have any aftermarket products connected directly to the battery? 

 

[Scientist1968]

Thank you Murphy for looking at the problem from different angles. I appreciate it a lot.

1. To answer your question, dealer had GPS tracking device added to the car. I have not logged into the website to register or activate it, if it requires activation. So not sure of it's state. It is paid for a year though, till August. I am not using it and I am not sure of my next steps on this.

 

2. I am considering replacing the wet cell battery with an AGM battery.

Are there any additional electrical components needed for AGM battery to work?

What is the brand and model you used?

Is your battery vented?

I do not have problem cutting the tray.

 

3. Do you have any other suggestions?

[murphy]

1. Was the GPS tracking device connected directly to the battery terminals?  If it was it bypasses the circuit that measures current into and out of the battery.  That means the car has no knowledge of the drain it puts on the battery.

 

2. I used an Optima D35 Yellow Top battery.  There was a report several years later, in the Energi forum, that someone found a different battery that fits in the space without cutting the tray.  I didn't write the details down so it would take a search of the Energi forum to find it.  I had to replace my D35 last year after 6 years of use and didn't bother to do the search.  The battery is not vented.  There is no free liquid in an AGM battery.  It can be used upside down if for some reason that was required,  The AGM battery did not require any electrical changes.  I do have a Schumacher smart battery charger that has an AGM mode.  My car doesn't get driven much since I am retired.  Covid-19 really amplified the non use so I charge the battery once a week. I put about 20 miles on the car last month,

 

3. The Energi has built in GPS and the app or web site can tell me where it is at any time.  It has a data modem on the AT&T cell network.

Was the GPS addition because of a car loan or a lease so the dealer could find the car?

 

[Scientist1968]

Big thank you Murphy for adding so much detail.

1. What I am refering to as GPS tracking is a dealer provided service called Kahu.

"Connected car and stolen vehicle recovery technology built for dealer groups and independent dealers"

https://www.spireon.com/kahu/

The addition of Kahu is something dealer does by default and try to charge $1000 for it which I did not pay, then they gave me that anyway. I did not need it so I did not sign in or website and if it requires activation, I did not do it. I paid for my car in full so Kahu is not there because of a car loan or a lease. I may get it removed as I do not need it. Couple of tests by me and our friend, who just became mechanic, showed that car uses 20-30 milli amps when off. So I did not suspect this device.

 

2. I have unconnected the negative terminal of the battery now and noted down voltage as 12.46v. I will check every 8 hours to see how much self-discharge is going on.

 

3. I googled AGM battery technology and it seems AGM charges are lower voltage than Wet Batteries that charge at 14 volts.

 

Does your car charge your AGM battery (at 14 volts) or you only use your Schumacher smart  battery charger in AGM mode?

 

Warm regards

[murphy]

My car charges at whatever voltage it is set to which is probably 13.8 to 14 volts.  I only use the Schumacher when the car is not being driven.

 

You may find this chart for a wet cell battery of use.

 

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by murphy

[Scientist1968]

Thank you Murphy.

1. Unplugged battery AT 2pm yesterday.

Open circuit voltage then: 12.61v

Today at 8am, 2pm and 5pm it was 12.50v

Tomorrow I will check voltage then put 100amp load for 5secs and then will check voltage, during and an hour later.

2. Removed GPS tracker today. It was plugged into the OBD2 port. Device has following components:

a. OBD plug (was connected to car's OBD2)

b. 2 wires from the above plug connected to GPS device

c. many wires from the above plug connected to OBD socket left dangling for anyone to connect OBD tool to get codes.

~~~I am surprised that car's OBD port is deep and behind the kick panel. Not sure there is a window to access it.

 

3. Tomorrow or day after, I will place place multi-meter in series between battery and battery harness and check amps consumed throughout the day. I am not planning to start the car during this test.

Any suggestions or conclusions by anyone are most welcome.

[Scientist1968]

Hi All, I have completed my tests. Here are the numbers.

 

Battery: AutoCraft Gold Battery -

SPECIFICATIONS

BCI Group Size: 67R

Cold Cranking Amperage:400 A

Cranking Amperage:500 A

Reserve Capacity:65 min

 

1. The Kaho GPS amp measurement:

- 14mA-22 mA

- Test done after initial boot up that takes 3-4mins.

- Test it outside the car connecting it to an instrument to measure voltage and amps.

 

2. Open circuit battery drain test

- Negative terminal of the battery was removed

- June 11: Unplugged battery AT 2pm -  12.61v  means battery had 93% capacity

- Time period 18hr to 27hr

- June 12:  at 8am, 2pm and 5pm - 12.50v means battery had 84% capacity

- Time period 24hr

- June 13: Next day 5:13pm - 12.44v means battery had  78% capacity

 

3. 100 amp load test

- Battery is not charged as of June 11 2pm

- June 13: before load 12.5v

- During the load test 10.5v

- Immediately after 7 secs of load completes 12.2v

 

4. Battery drain by car test

- Temp: hot Houston weather during night and day

- GPS is not plugged into OBD2

- Battery was connected to car

- Car was not on and is locked

- Test start time: 10:10pm - 12.41v means battery had 75% capacity
- Test duration 14hr 45min

- Test end time: 12:55pm - 11.58v means battery had 0% capacity

 

5. Parasitic drain test

- Drain current: 17mA

- GPS was not plugged into OBD2

- Current measured after car settled down after 12 mins of connecting the battery

 

Could all of you draw conclusions based upon above numbers?

 

If I need a new battery, any suggestion?

- Car is not driven often

- Battery is fully drained 6-7 times so far but charged back fully in a day or so

- We do not have electric plug nearby, so can't trickle charge

- We get lots of sunshine. Therefore solar trickle charger, if you can suggest, is not a problem.

 

Best Regards

Edited June 14, 2020 by Scientist1968

[murphy]

The 100 amp test should be done on a fully charged battery.  My meter shows 10.4 volts as the bottom edge of the good range.

 

If the battery has been fully discharged 6 or 7 times there is a pile of plate material at the bottom of each cell.  It isn't big enough to actually short out the cell yet but it does provide a high resistance path between the plates.  That is contributing to the self discharge.

 

I bought an 18 watt solar panel with battery charge controller at Home Depot.  It is mounted on the roof of the shed that houses the mowers and is used to keep the battery in one of the mowers charged.  The shed is over 100 feet from the house and does not have power available.

 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Coleman-18-Watt-12-Volt-Solar-Battery-Charging-Kit-58033/203241551

 

I prefer an AGM battery in a car that is not driven much.

[Scientist1968]

Hello Murphy. I agree with each and every thing you have said. I appreciate your efforts in helping me and others here.

Last Sunday, I did perform 100 Amp test after fully charging my battery.

Amps are as follows:

Before test: 12.8v

During 6sec 100 Amp load: 10.8v

Right after: 12.4v

 

I looked at Optima D35 Yellow Top Deep Cycle Battery, Group Size 35, 620 CCA. Looks promising. I will search for the other battery you referred to that someone else fitted into their energy without cutting tray.

[EricStrong]

On 6/15/2020 at 3:01 AM, Scientist1968 said:

cutting tray.

You don't need to cut your tray,

Your car (2015 Ford Fusion) needs a group 48 battery so you can buy for example ACDelco 48AGM - Cold Cranking Amps (CCA): 760, Reserve Capacity (RC): 120, Amp-Hours (AH): 70. It has a warranty for 36 months. Here's battery comparison details: https://batterygroupexpert.com/best-car-battery/

You looked to the Optima D35 Yellow Top Deep Cycle Battery, Group Size 35, 620 CCA - I think it is the wrong battery group for your car, and CCA is too small

Edited April 28, 2021 by EricStrong