Defective mileage in my 2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid Titanium

[ptjones]

My parents' C-Max Energi door sticker says 38 PSI. The Focus Electric door sticker says 38 PSI. The Fusion Energi door sticker says 35 PSI. All are running the exact same model of tire on the exact same size rims. We keep our tires at about 44-45 PSI at 60 F. Since tire pressure drops about 1 PSI for every 10 F drop in air temp, we run around the 38 PSI door sticker pressure in the winter when traction is reduced by snow/ice & a higher pressure in the summer when dry roads & warm temps yield better driving conditions.

Interesting that all three cars weigh about 3600lbs with the FFH weighing the most yet it has the lowest tire pressure. Still the Michelin Tire Rep said "Even tire wear to get the best tire mileage is what you are trying for". :) :shift:

 

Paul

[md13ffhguy]

I'm sure the Michelin rep knows all about these cars and why Ford recommended the psi set to whatever and how braking, handling, ride and WEAR are affected by deviating from that recommendation. Or maybe he just wants you to buy Michelins...

[Waldo]

When Ford signs a contract with the tire supplier, they tell the tire company what the tire pressure is going to be, then the tire companies design the tire around that pressure.

 

Usually what it really comes down to is how close the fuel economy label is to rounding up to the next number. Maybe the Fusion was coming out at 41.6 at 35psi, so it rounds up to 42, but the C-max was 39.4 at 35psi so putting it at 38psi bumped it up to 39.5, so it can round up to 40.

 

Even tire wear is nice, but it's not everything. The shape of the contact patch and the size of the contact patch are different things. Your higher pressure might be making the patch wider - or even side to side, but it is reducing it's length and reducing the overall size. Simple math, higher pressure = less contact patch area. Less area = less grip, especially in braking.

[hybridbear]

Interesting that all three cars weigh about 3600lbs with the FFH weighing the most yet it has the lowest tire pressure. Still the Michelin Tire Rep said "Even tire wear to get the best tire mileage is what you are trying for". :) :shift:

 

Paul

I think the Fusion Energi weighs more than the Fusion Hybrid...

 

When Ford signs a contract with the tire supplier, they tell the tire company what the tire pressure is going to be, then the tire companies design the tire around that pressure.

 

Usually what it really comes down to is how close the fuel economy label is to rounding up to the next number. Maybe the Fusion was coming out at 41.6 at 35psi, so it rounds up to 42, but the C-max was 39.4 at 35psi so putting it at 38psi bumped it up to 39.5, so it can round up to 40.

 

Even tire wear is nice, but it's not everything. The shape of the contact patch and the size of the contact patch are different things. Your higher pressure might be making the patch wider - or even side to side, but it is reducing it's length and reducing the overall size. Simple math, higher pressure = less contact patch area. Less area = less grip, especially in braking.

Thanks for your insights! It's really cool to learn these little tidbits about how the industry works. Many cars come with these same Michelin Energy Saver tires. How do the contracts work in cases like that where many different companies buy the same tires from MIchelin? Or are the tires not actually the same even though they appear to be?

[Waldo]

Or are the tires not actually the same even though they appear to be?

 

Exactly. I remember when the Lincoln LS and the Thunderbird were both using Michelin something tires in exactly the same size. They looked absolutely identical except for the DOT code, but were tuned completely differently. If you put the LS tires on the T-bird you got a shaky mess and if you put the T-bird tires on the LS you got a soft marshmallow. I once went to a local tire shop and they had one of each tire on the shelf. I asked them if they knew the difference between the two and of course they did not, so the next customer was likely to get one of each on their car.

 

Another tidbit - Michelin offers around 12 different tire compounds to the OE customers to chose from, but in the aftermarket they only use 2. So if you have a car that sells in fairly low volume or uses a unique size, you'll likely get leftover OE tires in the aftermarket, but if you have a higher volume car/tire, Michelin will move the aftermarket production to a different plant and use different compounds and construction. The only way to tell for sure what you're getting is to check the DOT codes.

[ptjones]

 

Exactly. I remember when the Lincoln LS and the Thunderbird were both using Michelin something tires in exactly the same size. They looked absolutely identical except for the DOT code, but were tuned completely differently. If you put the LS tires on the T-bird you got a shaky mess and if you put the T-bird tires on the LS you got a soft marshmallow. I once went to a local tire shop and they had one of each tire on the shelf. I asked them if they knew the difference between the two and of course they did not, so the next customer was likely to get one of each on their car.

 

Another tidbit - Michelin offers around 12 different tire compounds to the OE customers to chose from, but in the aftermarket they only use 2. So if you have a car that sells in fairly low volume or uses a unique size, you'll likely get leftover OE tires in the aftermarket, but if you have a higher volume car/tire, Michelin will move the aftermarket production to a different plant and use different compounds and construction. The only way to tell for sure what you're getting is to check the DOT codes.

I was curious about this so I call the Michelinman Concierge Service and asked them if there is any differences in the 225-50/17 Energy Savers A/S 93V for the different Car manufactures and he said there wasn't and the Tires you buy Retail are the same tire. He also said that car manufactures will order a run of tires which Michelin will hold in reserve for that manufacture, but they are the same tire you get at the tire store. :) If you have any questions call Michelinman Concierge # 1888-633-3339.

 

Paul

[Waldo]

Well what the Michelinman Concierge tell you and what the actual Michelin OEM engineers and account managers tell you might be slightly different. As I said, the 225-50/17 Energy Savers A/S 93V may be low enough volume that they don't make a different version, but that's not true of every tire.

[ptjones]

Well what the Michelinman Concierge tell you and what the actual Michelin OEM engineers and account managers tell you might be slightly different. As I said, the 225-50/17 Energy Savers A/S 93V may be low enough volume that they don't make a different version, but that's not true of every tire.

I would recommend you talk to Michelin, I think it is safe to say that Michelin has made atleast one million and maybe 2 million 225-50/17 Energy Savers A/S tires in the last 4 years. They do make two versions 93V that we use and the more expensive 94V with max psi of 44, not as good and can't find out if anyone uses it. :)

 

Paul

[Waldo]

I spent several years of my life talking to Michelin every day.

 

Not sure how you're guessing at 1-2 million, the base Fusion uses a different tire so it's only the Hybrids that use them. Ford has not sold anywhere close to 250,000 hybrids in the last 4 years. Even so, 1 million tires over 4 years is pretty low volume for Michelin.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Waldo

[tbranca]

I have a 2013 and 34 seems about right. I have tried everything. from running 55psi in tires. even bought a new 12v battery because I was told that may help. I do have to change the plugs every 20000 miles because they get fouled from soot. ford dealer says that's normal.

Edited February 3, 2016 by tbranca

[lolder]

It's not normal and your car is defective. It may be the one poster acdii got rid of. Escalate this problem up the appeals chain with Ford. Plugs do not need replacing until 100,000 miles and last a lot longer than that. Maybe you can contact acdii and see what his VIN number was.

Edited February 3, 2016 by lolder

[ptjones]

I spent several years of my life talking to Michelin every day.

 

Not sure how you're guessing at 1-2 million, the base Fusion uses a different tire so it's only the Hybrids that use them. Ford has not sold anywhere close to 250,000 hybrids in the last 4 years. Even so, 1 million tires over 4 years is pretty low volume for Michelin.

This is not true, 100K CMAX Hybrids/Energi have been sold and More FFH/Energi have been sold. Also the FORD Focus Electric uses them. Some hybrid/Energi owners are on their second or third sets which should account for around a Million Tires. Talking the Michelin Concierge he said they are standard equipment for Chrysler, Hyundai, Nissan, Honda, Toyota and GM. He also mentioned it is a popular tire for the Hybrid/Gas mileage crowd. :) It would be interesting to see what kind of tire wear and mileage members are getting at different pressures. :detective:

Paul

[jeffo65]

I have a 2013 and 34 seems about right. I have tried everything. from running 55psi in tires. even bought a new 12v battery because I was told that may help. I do have to change the plugs every 20000 miles because they get fouled from soot. ford dealer says that's normal.

I disagree with this statement.

 

We have a 2013 SE and we are averaging 42.8mpgs for the lifetime of the car and routinely get over 45mpg. We have had as high as 55mpg (summertime in town) and as low as 36mpg (wintertime on highway).

 

Plugs do not need to be changed untill 100,000 miles. I have pulled a plug and had the dealer look at them during the last oil change and they still look fine.

 

Some of the 2013 Job 1 FFH had issues with mpgs and a number were purchased back from the dealer.

 

I don't think the OP will be able to have that done since the car is 3 years old.

[hybridbear]

Another tidbit - Michelin offers around 12 different tire compounds to the OE customers to chose from, but in the aftermarket they only use 2. So if you have a car that sells in fairly low volume or uses a unique size, you'll likely get leftover OE tires in the aftermarket, but if you have a higher volume car/tire, Michelin will move the aftermarket production to a different plant and use different compounds and construction. The only way to tell for sure what you're getting is to check the DOT codes.

I checked the DOT codes on the Energi & the Focus Electric. They're exactly the same. So it appears that in this case, the two vehicles have exactly the same tires.

[Waldo]

I checked the DOT codes on the Energi & the Focus Electric. They're exactly the same. So it appears that in this case, the two vehicles have exactly the same tires.

 

The Focus electric is so low volume that the program planners just went around to try to find the lowest rolling resistance tire in the company and just built the car around that.

[Skydogz]

My Fusion SE hybrid is a 2014 and just this year the MPG dropped to the 36-38 mpg range! I never got more than 42 on average from new though.

 

Could it be the plugs?

 

[ptjones]

Maybe time for some injector cleaner. It looks like to me you are doing alot of short trips so the ICE isn't warming up to operating temps, and you may have carbon buildup. ;(

 

Paul

[lolder]

In my opinion these cars never need injector cleaner or plugs unless it's "missing" in which case you'll also get a warning light. Is it hotter this year in Texas? If so the AC is probably the cause. Mileage tanks when the outside air passes 95º F.

[Skydogz]

I cant get over 38.2 mpg, if fact it has been 38.2 now for over a month no matter how I baby it. 42psi in tires, new air filter, full synthetic, when I get done with my drive it usually tells me I got mid 50's and a braking score from 96-98% efficient with no air on I cant figure it out. 38.2 ain't bad but I can usually get that on the highway without trying so after this last update it has me wondering. PS it's not the brakes stopping you it's the friction and grip of tire and 50 psi in a tire is not safe, wait for the hard stop on a cold rainy day you won't feel so smart.

I had a mileage drop from 41 to 37 this summer and by raising my AC cabin temp from 72F up to 74F I have reastablished 42 mpg!

I drive a lot of short trips and am told the ICE may not be able to warm up to optimum operating temperature on short trips.

[Fission]

After 9 tanks of fuel and almost 4,000 miles, I am confident I know the real MPG vs what is displayed (both after each tank, and for "trip 1" which I have never reset since buying the car). My overall MPG, pencil and paper, is 40.3 vs gauge 42.1, a difference of 1.8 MPG. I do a fair amount of 70+ mph freeway driving, so am happy with 40.3. Two questions for those who track mileage: 1. Do you see that same 1.8 delta? Or what? 2. Is there a way for an owner to dial in the displayed mileage to more closely reflect reality?

 

Not a big of deal, I can most days easily subtract 1.8 from any number :) Just fun to know what others have experienced and to tinker with things.

[Timewellspent]

I have 43,000 miles on my Energi and my lifetime average according to the car is 108.9 mpg and 107.4 mpg per Fuelly. So mine is off by 1.5.

[lolder]

Many owners have found the odometer understates the distance traveled by about 2% and the computer overstates mpg by about 4% leaving a net of about 2% high or about 1 mpg. That's pretty close as car companies go. Plan a GPS route, note the mileage and set a trip counter to check your odometer.

[Fission]

Great point on that, and it can even vary a little with tire wear. I actually did what you suggest. In my case, distance traveled according to a hand-held GPS is dead-nuts on with the car's display for a 50 mile trip. My tires are just about worn out.

 

The speed displayed by the car is 1 mph faster than the actual speed per the GPS. Interestingly to me at least, the difference doesn't seem to be proportional to speed. 1 mph difference when driving 30 mph, and 1 mph difference when driving 80 mph.

Edited September 15, 2017 by Fission

[mwr]

Just fun to know what others have experienced

Mine displays approximately 2 mpg more than measured. I stopped checking that a long time ago. Like, what do I really care...

[Texasota]

Mine displays approximately 2 mpg more than measured. I stopped checking that a long time ago. Like, what do I really care...

Mine was similar. The trip computers were about 2.25 optimistic compared to hand calculation over the first ~20,000 miles. Stopped tracking it long ago.