2013 12 Volt Battery in a 2010?

[Planecrazy361]

EDIT: Resolutions to this thread's questions were added in posts #24, #25 and #29, which included both my solution and a linked youtube video showing how to do it.

 

Hi, Folks!

 

First post here, but I'm a regular in other forums so not really a "newbie," lol! I've been searching the web for the last week or so with no info on this question, so hoping somebody here has the 411 I need.

 

As many of you already know, the 12 volt battery in our series of hybrids (I have a 2010 Milan) seems to be an oddball that can only be sourced through the dealer. This is aggravating to me (and I'm sure to others) as there doesn't seem to be anything special or unique about this battery other than the fact that it has a smaller footprint and lower CCA (cold cranking amps) rating than standard batteries for non-hybrid vehicles. I tried all the usual avenues in the aftermarket with no success, but stumbled upon a replacement Interstate battery at Costco that is listed for the later series of Fusions (2013, etc.).

 

Physical measurements and post placement appear to be almost identical to the "unobtainium" battery listed for our cars, and the only obvious difference I can see is that the 2013-series battery is rated at 590CCA versus only 390CCA for our battery. I would see this as an advantage because of the higher capacity to run high-draw 12v electronics in the car during regular operation or while the car is turned off. Am I somehow missing something? Is there some "secret" reason why I shouldn't buy this superior aftermarket option at what I'm sure is a much lower price than the less capable Motorcraft OEM battery would be through the dealer?

 

Thanks in advance for any insights you folks may have. There is nothing more irritating to me than having to go to the dealer (and pay through the nose) for a purposely designed "unique" version of a part that should be available at any auto parts store. I also like to upgrade at least one level whenever I buy replacement parts for my vehicles, so this would seem to be a double win for me (and all of you) if there isn't some vital piece of information that I'm missing here. Look forward to finding out what you know!

 

Regards,

Steve

 

Edited August 3, 2015 by Planecrazy361

[lolder]

CCA is not important for a hybrid so that's not an upgrade in this case. The charging system is software controlled and set for the characteristics of a battery of OEM characteristics. Are the measurements really identical? If so the lower CCA amps of the hybrid battery are that way for a reason indicating it's more of a deep discharge type. The battery in these hybrids does not crank the ICE but it does supply a fairly high current when the car is "off".

Edited July 17, 2015 by lolder

[Planecrazy361]

CCA is not important for a hybrid so that's not an upgrade in this case. The charging system is software controlled and set for the characteristics of a battery of OEM characteristics. Are the measurements really identical? If so the lower CCA amps of the hybrid battery are that way for a reason indicating it's more of a deep discharge type. The battery in these hybrids does not crank the ICE but it does supply a fairly high current when the car is "off".

Appreciate the input, but based on what I've learned so far I believe you may (or may not) be in error on several points. While CCA doesn't factor in to the hybrid equation in the "usual" way (since the 12v battery doesn't power the starter motor on the ICE), it does come into play when operating auxiliary equipment off the 12V power ports, etc. Basically, the more CCA (and associated reserve) you have, the longer you can go with the ignition switch turned off without draining the battery to the point where the Hybrid won't "start." Given this point, I believe that the upgraded CCA rating really is an upgrade, especially since I run additional equipment on my car that benefits from the added "endurance" when the ignition is switched off.

 

Regarding your guess that the OEM battery is a deep discharge type, I thought that this might also be the case, but everyone who has weighed in on this issue in other places seems to believe that it is a standard wet cell, and not a deep discharge, marine style, battery. Also, keep in mind that the replacement I'm considering is spec'd for a newer version of our same hybrid system, which suggests that Ford upped the CCA requirement for the newer models in response to shortcomings with the earlier version (which, incidentally, I had also read some posts on suggesting that the first gen Fusion/Milan/MKZ's were weak in this area). Dimensional measurements are, as I stated, almost identical. I haven't pulled the OEM battery out yet, so haven't been able to precisely measure each dimension while it's installed, but the rough measurements I took are pretty darn close to exact.

 

I guess what I'm hoping for is some input from someone who knows 100% if the OEM battery is different in an "invisible" way, be it deep cycle or otherwise. I sure do appreciate your chiming in, but it sounds like you're making the same kind of educated guesses that I am, and either one of us could be right on all counts or just some of them. The evidence so far suggests that there's nothing special about the OEM battery. I look forward to learning more, perhaps from a Ford tech on the forum or a battery expert who knows exactly what's inside the OEM Motorcraft. Thanks again! ;-)

 

Regards,

Steve

[murphy]

The OEM battery in a 2013 Hybrid or Energi model is a 390 CCA battery. There is an error in the Owner's manual. The 5xx CCA battery is for the gasoline only version of the Fusion. The battery is a standard wet cell battery. IMHO it should be an AGM battery but it is not. I put an AGM battery in my 2013 Energi but it involved judicious use of a hacksaw to make it fit. It was possible because the battery is in the trunk. In a 2010 the battery is in the engine compartment and there is no room for anything but the OEM battery, I tried and failed.

[Planecrazy361]

The OEM battery in a 2013 Hybrid or Energi model is a 390 CCA battery. There is an error in the Owner's manual. The 5xx CCA battery is for the gasoline only version of the Fusion. The battery is a standard wet cell battery. IMHO it should be an AGM battery but it is not. I put an AGM battery in my 2013 Energi but it involved judicious use of a hacksaw to make it fit. It was possible because the battery is in the trunk. In a 2010 the battery is in the engine compartment and there is no room for anything but the OEM battery, I tried and failed.

Interesting fact you shared on the Owners Manual misprint. I've seen other posts where people mistook the OEM gas-engined battery as being right for the hybrid and had fitment problems (like you decribed), but here's the interesting part. The 590CCA Interstate battery at Cosco appears to be identical in dimension to the OEM 390CCA. Since you seem pretty certain that the OEM 390CCA battery is a wet cell (which I also believe to be true), it sounds like this upgraded (but smaller than typical) 590CCA ought to be a perfect fit in my 2010. So far this is going in the direction I had hoped, but will hold off to see if there is any late-breaking revelations from someone else in the know.

 

Thanks for chiming in! ;-)

 

Regards,

Steve

[hybridbear]

The BCM (Body Control Module) tracks 12V battery type, CCA, age, temperature, charge level & other factors. When replacing the battery at the dealer, they are supposed to update the BCM with the stats about the new battery. They should also reset the battery age counter. If this is not done, it may cause confusion because the BCM will see unexpected results when attempting to charge the 12V battery.

 

Only the Ford engineers who programmed the BCM know how it changes charging behavior based on these factors, so unfortunately we can't help you there.

[murphy]

I am absolutely certain the OEM 390 CCA battery is a wet cell battery. If I shake it I can hear the electrolyte sloshing around. It also has a vent hose that vents underneath the car.

 

I removed the caps from the one that was in my 2010, measured the specific gravity, and added water to the cells. It also had the "eye" on one of the middle cells that is supposed to tell the condition of the battery. It was red the day I bought the car and stayed red for the four years that I had the car. It never turned green.

[Automate]

@Planecrazy361 Welcome to the forum. Hope you stick around for more than just your battery question.

 

My 2 cents worth. The Ford Hybrid batteries have two major issues:

1, The 12V OEM battery is somewhat undersized. Ford downsized the battery since it does not need to start the engine but did not take into account all the parasitic loads from all the electronics in these cars especially when they are sitting for a period of time unused.

2. The Ford Hybrid 12V OEM batteries have higher than normal quality issues. This manifest itself as the battery going dead without much warning unlike most end of life battery failures.

 

No guarantees, but he Costco battery has the potential of solving both of these issues

1. Higher CCA on a battery does not always equate to a higher VAh battery capacity but often does.

2. The Costco battery is at least different than the OEM Battery which has a known history of quality problems.

[lolder]

Of course they're all wet cells and the higher CCA does not indicate better AH capacity. In fact it's usually the reverse. There's never much drain on the battery because in either accessory or on position the DC to DC converter is on. In the accessory position, the HVB will eventually reach it's low SOC cutoff point and disconnect. The 12 vdc battery will then drain completely flat. One of these events may start premature aging. Because there are smaller charge and discharge currents, I believe that the electrolyte doesn't get stirred up much. I believe there were quality control problems in the OEMs and the cars sitting for weeks or months after manufacture finished them so they were damaged from the get-go before sale. There are instructions now to the dealers about more periodic charging. Replacement hybrid batteries from Ford seem to have better durability. They haven't been sitting with a low continuous drain on them like the ones in the cars.

See paragraph 2. here: http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/battery-basics.html#2

[Automate]

higher CCA does not indicate better AH capacity. In fact it's usually the reverse.

 

See paragraph 2. here: http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/battery-basics.html#2

 

Not sure why you are linking to irrelevant information about deep cycle batteries. Obviously neither a convention car nor a hybrid needs or uses deep cycle batteries for the 12V circuits.

 

So within the same battery type, larger and higher quality batteries will have both a higher CCA rating and a higher AH rating.

 

That is why the old Die Hard commercial on TV showed a car with the lights left on over night with the engine off. In the morning the lights are still shining to show the high AH capacity of the battery Then when it still starts they are showing the high CCA capacity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Nlrqqf8TsM

 

European battery manufacturers are required to list both the CCA and AH ratings of the batteries and the higher quality, more expensive batters will be higher in both specs. The two specs don't generally move in opposite directions within the same type of battery.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Automate

[Planecrazy361]

The BCM (Body Control Module) tracks 12V battery type, CCA, age, temperature, charge level & other factors. When replacing the battery at the dealer, they are supposed to update the BCM with the stats about the new battery. They should also reset the battery age counter. If this is not done, it may cause confusion because the BCM will see unexpected results when attempting to charge the 12V battery.

 

Only the Ford engineers who programmed the BCM know how it changes charging behavior based on these factors, so unfortunately we can't help you there.

I'm really appreciating all the input on this thread, but now wondering if ANYONE has access to resetting/reprogramming the system to reflect the replacement/upgrade of the battery, assuming it is physically the same size as the OEM (which I believe this one is). Hybridbear seems to imply that only the dealer can do it, but I'm hoping that by now somebody may have figured a workaround that will allow us to replace/upgrade our own batteries without being tied to the dealer for a "reset."

 

Keep the info coming, and thanks again for all the insight! ;-)

 

Regards,

Steve

[Planecrazy361]

@Planecrazy361 Welcome to the forum. Hope you stick around for more than just your battery question.

 

Thanks for the welcome! I'll be sticking around - I intend to keep my hybrid Milan for a long time and just did the "dreaded" air conditioning temperature sensor fix (the one where the console and dash have to be disassembled) myself, lol! Saved many hundreds of dollars and couldn't be happier, especially today with temps in the high nineties and my auto-climate-control blowing ice cold! ;-)

Edited July 17, 2015 by Planecrazy361

[Planecrazy361]

There's never much drain on the battery because in either accessory or on position the DC to DC converter is on. In the accessory position, the HVB will eventually reach it's low SOC cutoff point and disconnect. The 12 vdc battery will then drain completely flat.

One thing I should mention is that the problems I've had with the car not starting several times over the last few weeks are tied to the fact that I have residual draws (dashcams, phone chargers, etc.) that create draw when the car is completely off, because the 12v sockets remain "live" even with the ignition off. I've been slowly draining the 12v battery when I forget to pull those draws off at night and with the battery (I believe it is the original) getting older it just can't hang on enough to allow the hybrid system to "power up." Obviously, the short term answer is not to forget to pull the constant power accessories out when I leave the car, but this is a sign that the battery is nearing the end of its useful life.

 

As if you all didn't figure it out by now, I'm hell-bent on avoiding a trip to the dealer to spend hundreds of dollars to replace a "standard" component that should never require anything more than a few basic hand tools and a simple "user resettable" set of programming steps. It's the principle of the thing! ;-) BAD FORD! BAD FORD! (and I say this as a lifelong Ford fan, lol!)

 

Regards,

Steve

[hybridbear]

I'm really appreciating all the input on this thread, but now wondering if ANYONE has access to resetting/reprogramming the system to reflect the replacement/upgrade of the battery, assuming it is physically the same size as the OEM (which I believe this one is). Hybridbear seems to imply that only the dealer can do it, but I'm hoping that by now somebody may have figured a workaround that will allow us to replace/upgrade our own batteries without being tied to the dealer for a "reset."

 

Keep the info coming, and thanks again for all the insight! ;-)

 

Regards,

Steve

I don't know if it's a problem to not preprogram the BCM, I just wanted to point out that step in the dealer battery replacement instructions.

[GrySql]

Hybridbear seems to imply that only the dealer can do it, but I'm hoping that by now somebody may have figured a workaround that will allow us to replace/upgrade our own batteries without being tied to the dealer for a "reset."

I'm afraid what you're asking for is not possible without Ford's IDS laptop connected to your car. Re-setting or re-programming is only available from the Ford Dealers Service Department, it is not available for public use. I'd suppose that has more than a few reasons, one being that you can really goof up your car if you don't follow the explicit instructions.

I'm not familiar with the 2010's charging system or what is necessary for a perfect battery replacement and re-programming. However, this is what is supposed to be required to replace the 2013's battery properly:

Battery Monitoring Sensor

The Battery Monitoring Sensor continuously monitors the condition and the state of charge of the 12V battery and provides the BCM with this information. The Battery Monitoring Sensor also estimates losses in the battery capacity over time. The Battery Monitoring Sensor should only be reset when the battery is replaced. It is urgently recommended that the replacement battery has the exact same specification as the original battery. If it does not, the accuracy of the Battery Monitoring Sensor outputs will be compromised.

 

Having said that, others have replaced the original $120 FFH battery with other style batteries (like Murphy), some even putting in two batteries, one for a new high amp stereo system.

 

I'd like to see you buy the Costco battery, install it and tell us how it works, be the first to try it and add to our knowledge pool. With a 2010 Milan hybrid you are not worried about Ford warranty issues so go for it! :superhero:

Edited July 18, 2015 by GrySql

[Planecrazy361]

I'm afraid what you're asking for is not possible without Ford's IDS laptop connected to your car. Re-setting or re-programming is only available from the Ford Dealers Service Department, it is not available for public use. I'd suppose that has more than a few reasons, one being that you can really goof up your car if you don't follow the explicit instructions.

I'm not familiar with the 2010's charging system or what is necessary for a perfect battery replacement and re-programming. However, this is what is supposed to be required to replace the 2013's battery properly:

Battery Monitoring Sensor

The Battery Monitoring Sensor continuously monitors the condition and the state of charge of the 12V battery and provides the BCM with this information. The Battery Monitoring Sensor also estimates losses in the battery capacity over time. The Battery Monitoring Sensor should only be reset when the battery is replaced. It is urgently recommended that the replacement battery has the exact same specification as the original battery. If it does not, the accuracy of the Battery Monitoring Sensor outputs will be compromised.

 

Having said that, others have replaced the original $120 FFH battery with other style batteries (like Murphy), some even putting in two batteries, one for a new high amp stereo system.

 

I'd like to see you buy the Costco battery, install it and tell us how it works, be the first to try it and add to our knowledge pool. With a 2010 Milan hybrid you are not worried about Ford warranty issues so go for it! :superhero:

In all probability that is exactly what I'll do, and for the reasons you mentioned (no warranty worries, and no real worries about damaging the charging system). I do intend to reach out to my dealer to see if they'll do a "courtesy reset" of the battery age counter and set the new CCA rating (if that's even possible), and I also will check with a few local mechanics to see if any of their modern diagnostic systems are capable of reading/resetting the 12V battery charge settings.

 

With all the aftermarket tuning/reprogramming going on, it stands to reason that somebody has cracked the code such that it may be accessible from outside the official Ford system. Certainly it's worth pursuing, as finding a way to do it privately would be huge for shadetree mechanics, like me, who grimace whenever automotive manufacturers take an easy, basic, job and purposely make it impossible or very difficult for the average person to do.

 

Regards,

Steve

[Automate]

@Planecrazy361

 

I also have a 2010 Fusion Hybrid and best I can tell the first Gen FFHs (2010-2012) do not have the battery monitoring sensor or any control modules that have to be reset when the battery is replaced.

 

I have the Ford factory service Manual for the 2010 FFH and it never mentions any battery sensors or anything special that must be done when replacing the battery.

 

I also have FORScan and an OBDLink MX scanner and it does not show any PIDs with 12V battery age like what the newer FFH.and FFE have.

 

If anyone has information that shows otherwise please post it.

[Planecrazy361]

@Planecrazy361

 

I also have a 2010 Fusion Hybrid and best I can tell the first Gen FFHs (2010-2012) do not have the battery monitoring sensor or any control modules that have to be reset when the battery is replaced.

 

I have the Ford factory service Manual for the 2010 FFH and it never mentions any battery sensors or anything special that must be done when replacing the battery.

 

I also have FORScan and an OBDLink MX scanner and it does not show any PIDs with 12V battery age like what the newer FFH.and FFE have.

 

If anyone has information that shows otherwise please post it.

Sounds like this may simply be a case of 2010/11/12 and 2013/14/15 hybrid system information getting scrambled together in a single thread, simply because I proposed using a dimensionally similar 2013 spec battery in the first gen series. I suppose that, moving forward, I should request that any further posts attempt to specify which generation the information you're quoting is suppose to be applied to. That way we can all attempt to learn something useful for our respective models.

 

This is great news, Automate, because it strongly suggests that I shouldn't have any worries about using the Interstate 590CCA battery in place of the OEM 390CCA piece, assuming it fits, of course. I will follow up once I've taken the plunge and attempted the swap!

 

Thanks again!

 

Regards,

Steve

[hybridbear]

@Planecrazy361

 

I also have a 2010 Fusion Hybrid and best I can tell the first Gen FFHs (2010-2012) do not have the battery monitoring sensor or any control modules that have to be reset when the battery is replaced.

 

I have the Ford factory service Manual for the 2010 FFH and it never mentions any battery sensors or anything special that must be done when replacing the battery.

 

I also have FORScan and an OBDLink MX scanner and it does not show any PIDs with 12V battery age like what the newer FFH.and FFE have.

 

If anyone has information that shows otherwise please post it.

Great info! Since many of us have never owned the 1st gen FFH it is hard for us to help with this info. The few who have owned the 1st gen are more knowledgeable in this case.

[hybridbear]

For reference, here are the 2013+ options for programming the BCM with info about the 12V battery:

Name: BATTERY_TYPE

Description: Battery Type

Available types:

Mode with possible values:

- 0 - AGM 80Ah 700CCA T7 Case

- 1 - AGM 70Ah 600CCA H6 Case

- 2 - AGM 80Ah 700CCA H7 Case

- 3 - Varta 90h 800CCA T8 Case

- 4 - Varta 52Ah 500CCA T5 Case

- 5 - Varta 60Ah 590CCA T6 Case

- 6 - Varta 80Ah 700CCA T7 Case

- 7 - Varta 43Ah 390CCA T4 Case

- 8 - Varta 60Ah 520CCA H5 Case

- 9 - Varta 70Ah 600CCA H6 Case

- 10 - Varta 80Ah 700CCA H7 Case

- 11 - Varta 90h 800CCA H8 Case

- 12 - Varta 90h 950CCA HB Case

- 13 - Exide 43Ah 390CCA T4 Case

- 14 - Exide 52Ah 500CCA T5 Case

- 15 - Exide 60Ah 590CCA T6 Case

- 16 - Exide 80Ah 700CCA T7 Case

- 17 - Exide 90Ah 800CCA TB Case

- 18 - Exide 60Ah 520CCA H5 Case

- 19 - Exide 70Ah 600CCA H6 Case

- 20 - Exide 80Ah 700CCA H7 Case

- 21 - Exide 90Ah 800CCA H8 Case

- 22 - Exide 90Ah 950CCA HB Case

The OEM battery is type 7.

[murphy]

The Optima AGM that I put in is 48 Ah 620 CCA

[Automate]

Sounds like this may simply be a case of 2010/11/12 and 2013/14/15 hybrid system information getting scrambled together in a single thread, simply because I proposed using a dimensionally similar 2013 spec battery in the first gen series. I suppose that, moving forward, I should request that any further posts attempt to specify which generation the information you're quoting is suppose to be applied to. That way we can all attempt to learn something useful for our respective models.

 

 

The vast majority of users on this forum have the newer generation FFH. I had seen so many posts about the 12V battery sensing I just assumed that the 1st Gen have it also. It was not until you started this topic and I started looking into it deeper that I realized ours don't seem to have the battery sensing.

 

This forum is great at ferreting out the details about our FFHs.

[GrySql]

Looking at the Gen 1 battery replacement directions in the Service Manual I can only find this:

[Planecrazy361]

Alright, Folks ... here is the much anticipated follow-up to this thread!

 

After learning toward the end of our discussion that the 1st gen Fusion/Milan/MKZ does NOT require a dealer reset of 12 volt battery parameters I decided to go ahead and give the Costco / Interstate battery experiment the go-ahead. As I previously mentioned, I wasn't able to get exact measurements of the OEM battery while it was installed in the car and, after pulling it out, I eventually learned that it's about an inch narrower than the replacement battery I purchased. I also learned that the plastic tabs that allow for holding down the battery are molded to the sides instead of to the front and back (as on most standard car batteries).

 

After taking measurements and checking the location of several wiring harnesses and an intake air sensor connector, I determined that I could fit the new battery into the existing location if I trimmed the flat plastic battery tray in several places and fabricated a custom "hold down" bracket to secure it in place. The battery fit perfectly with no additional room on either side. It took me about two hours of work to make the modifications and fabricate the custom "hold down," but I think it was time well spent because I now have a battery with 200 more cold cranking amps, a reserve capacity of 95 (versus 65 for the OEM) and, most importantly, I can now replace the battery inexpensively at almost any place that sells car batteries! This Interstate battery cost $90 at Costco and while I never bothered to check the price of the substandard Motorcraft battery from the dealer, I have no doubt that I would've been charged a lot more for a less capable solution.

 

I took video of the transplant and will try to get it up on Youtube within the next few weeks. Once I do I will post a link here for anyone who would like to duplicate my mod. In the meantime, I've attached a picture of the finished mod.

 

Thanks for all the input - much appreciated!

 

Regards,

Steve

[Planecrazy361]

One more thing ... The modifications I made to the car were ONLY made to the removeable battery tray. As a result, if I ever decide I want to go back to the OEM setup, I need only purchase a new battery tray and everything will return to "as original" condition. I can't imagine why I'd ever want to do that, but I suppose that a future owner of the car might prefer to run all original equipment. If so, they can return the car to it's original configuration.

 

Regards,

Steve