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FFH factoids & parts quiz


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137 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   GrySql

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 01:02 AM

Factoid:

 

NOTE: The following is general information only and and may not be complete.  This information is for discussion only and not to be used for problem solving with your specific car.  This information is not intended to replace or supersede any warranty, parts and service policy, Work Shop Manual (WSM) procedures or technical training or wiring diagram information. Seek qualified automotive help if your car is having drive-ability problems.

 

 

==

Creep Mode
The hybrid electric system delivers torque to the wheels to mimic the creep mode normally found on vehicles equipped with an automatic transmission. The TCM commands a predetermined amount of torque to be delivered to the output shafts of the electronically controlled transmission. This torque is delivered from the combination of the internal combustion engine, the traction motor, or the generator motor. The maximum creep speed in forward or reverse direction is about 6 km/h (4 mph). The creep speed may vary slightly if ambient temperature, altitude, relative humidity, engine temperature, or weight of the vehicle changes.
 


Edited by GrySql, 17 October 2015 - 07:52 PM.

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#22 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 10:41 AM

I believe also that when you stop the car with the brake, the torque is not applied so you are not wasting electricity from the "creep" torque.


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#23 OFFLINE   B25Nut

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 03:47 PM

I forget which hybrid a recent article was reviewing, but they mentioned it didn't have the creep mode, which made it very difficult to maneuver in parking lots.


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#24 OFFLINE   mwr

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 11:08 PM

I believe also that when you stop the car with the brake, the torque is not applied so you are not wasting electricity from the "creep" torque.

I've wondered about that, but have no idea how to find out.


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#25 OFFLINE   GrySql

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 11:22 PM

Continuing with the Hybrid Electric Control Software, the Creep Mode was the first item:

 

NOTE: The following is general information only and and may not be complete.  This information is for discussion only and not to be used for problem solving with your specific car.  This information is not intended to replace or supersede any warranty, parts and service policy, Work Shop Manual (WSM) procedures or technical training or wiring diagram information. Seek qualified automotive help if your car is having drive-ability problems.

 

 

==

 

Driving Modes
There are five fundamental operating modes in the hybrid electric system:
    •    series mode
    •    electric mode
    •    positive split mode
    •    negative split mode
    •    engine cranking mode

Series Mode
The system operates in this mode when the engine is running and the vehicle is not moving. This is the preferred mode whenever the high voltage traction battery is charging, passenger compartment temperature control, high voltage traction battery temperature control or catalyst warm up is necessary.

Electric Mode
The system operates in this mode when the vehicle is propelled by the electrical power stored in the high voltage traction battery. The torque is supplied to the output shafts by the traction motor. This is the preferred mode whenever the desired torque is low and can be produced more efficiently by the electrical system than the engine. The electric mode is also used in reverse because the engine can deliver torque only in a forward direction.
 


Edited by GrySql, 17 October 2015 - 07:53 PM.

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#26 OFFLINE   Texasota

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 11:32 PM

Continuing with the Hybrid Electric Control Software, the Creep Mode was the first item:

 

Driving Modes
There are five fundamental operating modes in the hybrid electric system:
    •    series mode
    •    electric mode
    •    positive split mode
    •    negative split mode
    •    engine cranking mode

Series Mode
The system operates in this mode when the engine is running and the vehicle is not moving. This is the preferred mode whenever the high voltage traction battery is charging, passenger compartment temperature control, high voltage traction battery temperature control or catalyst warm up is necessary.

Electric Mode
The system operates in this mode when the vehicle is propelled by the electrical power stored in the high voltage traction battery. The torque is supplied to the output shafts by the traction motor. This is the preferred mode whenever the desired torque is low and can be produced more efficiently by the electrical system than the engine. The electric mode is also used in reverse because the engine can deliver torque only in a forward direction.
 

Come on, GrySql!  I'm not going to sleep a wink tonight until I get to read about the remaining three modes. You are a tease.



#27 OFFLINE   GrySql

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 11:36 PM

This is like a Serial TV show, be patient and all will be revealed.  Have some warm milk to calm yourself... :)

 

Did you catch that part where the ICE works only in Forward, the Traction Motor provides Reverse.


Edited by GrySql, 19 December 2014 - 11:38 PM.

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#28 OFFLINE   Texasota

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 11:53 PM

Did you catch that part where the ICE works only in Forward, the Traction Motor provides Reverse.

 

Yes, I did. It makes you realize how much the HVB and EV system is fully integrated into the design of this car. If the HVB somehow becomes fully discharged (or fails) you are going to be calling AAA.

 

Going to get some warm milk now and a couple of Meagan's cookies.


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#29 OFFLINE   SteveB_TX

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 08:20 AM

If the HVB ever fails, you will be calling AAA anyway Texasota (or in my case, Lincoln Lifetime Roadside Assistance!)  :)  On the flip side, if the HVB is fully discharged (which we all know is a BAD thing), the ICE will start up and and provide the required go juice to back up, unless the converter is toast, then yes, you will have to call AAA.  You will still need to take your car in to the dealer, since your HVB should NEVER be fully discharged.  Unless you are like GrySql and keep running tests to check his factoids!  ;)


Edited by SteveB_TX, 20 December 2014 - 08:31 AM.

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#30 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 11:11 AM

The system prevents the HVB from ever being completely disharged ( unless there is a system failure ). Only the HVB cranks the ICE so if the HVB is discharged, it's tow to the dealer time. Of course there was another problem also.



#31 OFFLINE   GrySql

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 12:31 PM

  Unless you are like GrySql and keep running tests to check his factoids!  ;)

Factiod checking the gizmos and thingys is all done Ad Hoc using seat time and Heuristic methods.  :headspin:


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#32 OFFLINE   GrySql

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 12:42 PM

NOTE: The following is general information only and and may not be complete.  This information is for discussion only and not to be used for problem solving with your specific car.  This information is not intended to replace or supersede any warranty, parts and service policy, Work Shop Manual (WSM) procedures or technical training or wiring diagram information. Seek qualified automotive help if your car is having drive-ability problems.

==

Continuing with the Hybrid Electric Control Software, the Creep Mode was the first item, below are items 3, 4 & 5 of the Drive Mode:

(There are five fundamental operating modes in the hybrid electric system:
    •    series mode
    •    electric mode
    •    positive split mode
    •    negative split mode
    •    engine cranking mode)

--

Positive Split Mode
The system operates in this mode when the engine is running and powering the generator motor which produces the electricity. The power from the engine is split between the path through the generator motor and the path to the output shafts of the vehicle. The electricity produced by the generator motor charges the high voltage traction battery or powers the traction motor. In this mode the traction motor can operate as a motor or as a generator to make up the difference between engine torque and desired torque at the wheels. This mode is preferred whenever the traction battery needs to be charged or at moderate loads at low speeds.

Negative Split Mode
The system operates in this mode when the engine is running but the generator motor is reducing the engine speed. This mode is never preferred but occurs if the engine is running, the vehicle speed is high, the high voltage traction battery is charged.

Engine Cranking Mode
The generator motor provides the engine cranking function to start or restart the internal combustion engine. When the PCM requests the engine cranking mode, the generator motor rapidly accelerates the engine speed up to about 950 RPM in about 0.3 seconds. When the engine speed reaches a calibrated speed the PCM commands the delivery of fuel and spark at the appropriate time.
 


Edited by GrySql, 17 October 2015 - 07:53 PM.

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#33 OFFLINE   mwr

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 01:19 PM


Negative Split Mode
The system operates in this mode when the engine is running but the generator motor is reducing the engine speed. This mode is never preferred but occurs if the engine is running, the vehicle speed is high, the high voltage traction battery is charged.
 

It seems to me my FFH operates in this mode sometimes under moderate acceleration from a stop, even when the HVB doesn't have a high SOC. Car accelerates with more EV than engine (no more than 1500 rpm). I really like that mode for acceleration; it's almost silent, and wish the car would use it more.


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#34 OFFLINE   Texasota

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 03:42 PM

Electric Mode

The electric mode is also used in reverse because the engine can deliver torque only in a forward direction.

While I was laying awake all night (thanks, GrySql) I was wondering more about this. Okay, the ICE can only apply torque in a forward direction.  But, can the ICE charge the HVB while I am driving in reverse? 

 

I was wondering if I would be in trouble if I drove down a dead end ally that was three miles long forcing me to back out all the way?  I suppose I could stop and put it into park to allow the HVB to charge if charging in reverse is not possible.

 

Engine Cranking Mode

When the PCM requests the engine cranking mode, the generator motor rapidly accelerates the engine speed up to about 950 RPM in about 0.3 seconds. When the engine speed reaches a calibrated speed the PCM commands the delivery of fuel and spark at the appropriate time.

I'm guessing this largely explains why we enjoy the almost seamless transition from EV back to ICE running and powering the car. From most of the literature I have read, the FFH is amongst the best in making this a smooth transition.



#35 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 12:24 AM

Yes the ICE generates electricity in reverse. About once a year the Gen II 2010-12 FFH's periodically  ( Re )-Condition the HVB by fully charging it for 15+ minutes and inhibiting EV completely. If you want to reverse before that is complete, the re-conditioning is cancelled so you can use EV in reverse. It may initiate again shortly and complete.

 

When you accelerate moderately forward, the ICE and EV contribute. Find a big empty space and floor it in reverse. The ICE will run but it is not propelling the car and you will see how strong the EV alone is.

 

The cars will not move without the EV system functioning. If that shuts down for a malfunction, the cars coast to a stop. The ICE cannot propel the car without the EV system functioning. The car will go a short distance of about a mile in EV if the ICE quits.


Edited by lolder, 21 December 2014 - 12:31 AM.


#36 OFFLINE   jeff_h

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 07:50 AM

Yes the ICE generates electricity in reverse.

 

The ICE has charged my HVB in reverse probably 15-20 times, as my house is at the top of a hill in my neighborhood and if I time it just right the EV+ uses the HVB so it is very low and then when I go to back into the driveway and garage (another uphill) if right around that time it has passed the threshold where the HVB out of EV+ then the ICE will start and charge the HVB while I am backing uphill into the garage.  I originally thought the EV was powering in reverse but have since read on various posts that it does not, so if that's the case then the ICE is definitely charging the HVB as I'm going in reverse.


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#37 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 10:41 AM

I've wondered about that, but have no idea how to find out.

Since braking uses the traction motor for regen there is no creep fighting against braking. 

 

Continuing with the Hybrid Electric Control Software, the Creep Mode was the first item, below are items 3, 4 & 5 of the Drive Mode:

(There are five fundamental operating modes in the hybrid electric system:
    •    series mode
    •    electric mode
    •    positive split mode
    •    negative split mode
    •    engine cranking mode)

--

Positive Split Mode
The system operates in this mode when the engine is running and powering the generator motor which produces the electricity. The power from the engine is split between the path through the generator motor and the path to the output shafts of the vehicle. The electricity produced by the generator motor charges the high voltage traction battery or powers the traction motor. In this mode the traction motor can operate as a motor or as a generator to make up the difference between engine torque and desired torque at the wheels. This mode is preferred whenever the traction battery needs to be charged or at moderate loads at low speeds.

Negative Split Mode
The system operates in this mode when the engine is running but the generator motor is reducing the engine speed. This mode is never preferred but occurs if the engine is running, the vehicle speed is high, the high voltage traction battery is charged.

Engine Cranking Mode
The generator motor provides the engine cranking function to start or restart the internal combustion engine. When the PCM requests the engine cranking mode, the generator motor rapidly accelerates the engine speed up to about 950 RPM in about 0.3 seconds. When the engine speed reaches a calibrated speed the PCM commands the delivery of fuel and spark at the appropriate time.

The one missing from this description is parallel mode. Larry has frequently pointed out that all these modes have inefficiencies due to conversion losses since both positive split & negative split involve conversions of mechanical energy to electrical energy then back to mechanical energy. The ideal mode for freeway driving would be to just have the ICE drive the wheels without electrical input. This is what the Accord Hybrid does via a clutch to get better highway MPGs than the Fusion. Toyota hybrids also typically do not consume or generate any mechanical power from the electric motors on the highway, sending the power directly from the ICE to the wheels. They also get better highway MPG than the Fusion. The Fusion will occasionally under ideal conditions only send power from the ICE to the wheels without involving the electric motors. However, since the FFH eCVT is not all mounted on one axle, like the Toyota eCVTs, it cannot really do this mode because power has to go through the traction motor which is mounted on a different axle and goes to the wheels.

 

While I was laying awake all night (thanks, GrySql) I was wondering more about this. Okay, the ICE can only apply torque in a forward direction.  But, can the ICE charge the HVB while I am driving in reverse? 

 

I was wondering if I would be in trouble if I drove down a dead end ally that was three miles long forcing me to back out all the way?  I suppose I could stop and put it into park to allow the HVB to charge if charging in reverse is not possible.

 

I'm guessing this largely explains why we enjoy the almost seamless transition from EV back to ICE running and powering the car. From most of the literature I have read, the FFH is amongst the best in making this a smooth transition.

 

The ICE has charged my HVB in reverse probably 15-20 times, as my house is at the top of a hill in my neighborhood and if I time it just right the EV+ uses the HVB so it is very low and then when I go to back into the driveway and garage (another uphill) if right around that time it has passed the threshold where the HVB out of EV+ then the ICE will start and charge the HVB while I am backing uphill into the garage.  I originally thought the EV was powering in reverse but have since read on various posts that it does not, so if that's the case then the ICE is definitely charging the HVB as I'm going in reverse.

Toyota hybrids cannot charge the HVB while in reverse, but this is because their ICE, traction motor & generator motor are all mounted on the same axle. Since the Ford design is different it is possible for charging while in reverse. This would mean that the ICE is spinning the generator motor to convert mechanical energy into electrical energy. Some of that electrical energy is then converter back to mechanical energy by the traction motor to propel the vehicle in reverse, while the excess electrical energy is stored in the HVB.

 

Since hybrids have an eCVT without changing gears there is no method to provide reverse torque from the ICE to the wheels.


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#38 OFFLINE   Texasota

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 03:01 PM

The Fusion will occasionally under ideal conditions only send power from the ICE to the wheels without involving the electric motors. However, since the FFH eCVT is not all mounted on one axle, like the Toyota eCVTs, it cannot really do this mode because power has to go through the traction motor which is mounted on a different axle and goes to the wheels.

HB, the above seems unclear. Sounds like you are saying that Parallel Mode does not apply to the FFH?



#39 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 08:32 AM

HB, the above seems unclear. Sounds like you are saying that Parallel Mode does not apply to the FFH?

It does & it doesn't. The Ford eCVT doesn't have a clear & direct path to the wheels like the Toyota eCVT & the Accord Hybrid clutch design. However, there are times where both the generator motor and the traction motor will show 0.0 kW or very close to 0.0. At these moments the gears are just transmitting the ICE power through the planetary gearset to the wheels without converting energy and experiencing conversion losses. I haven't done enough road trips since getting my Android tablet with Torque Pro last year to fully figure out the logic but I hope to do a long road trip in January and observe data over 1000s of miles of highway driving.


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#40 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 10:29 AM

I am going to disagree. i believe the different architecture of the Toyotas and Fords does not cause these differences. The block diagrams are the same except for an additional planetary gear in the Gen III Prius to lower MG! speed to allow higher EV speed. Their modes are the same but implemented in slightly different ways and proportions due to design objectives.

 

The Toyota systems can charge in reverse. From Wikipedia Hybrid Synergy Drive entry http://en.wikipedia...._Synergy_Drive:

 

"Reverse gear: There is no reverse gear as in a conventional gearbox: the computer feeds negative voltage to MG2, applying negative torque to the wheels. Early models did not supply enough torque for some situations: there have been reports of early Prius owners not being able to back the car up steep hills in San Francisco. The problem has been fixed in recent models. If the battery is low, the system can simultaneously run the engine and draw power from MG1, although this will reduce available reverse torque at the wheels."

 

It is rare that there is no electrical function at all as MG1 controls the transmission and engine speed but it is small at highway speeds unless the HVB charge is above or below the nominal target.


Edited by lolder, 23 December 2014 - 10:34 AM.





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