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Tire snow cables


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67 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   mwr

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 12:45 AM

I guess this is all about your personal viewpoint. By the way, what is this "Snow" that you are referring to? And what is a "mountain". We have a shell mound about 50 ' high within a 100 miles. Is that one? It was 82º F here today.

I did live in N J for 42 years and usually chains and cables were prohibited on highways and interstates after snow tires came out.

I think an interstate that required chains or cables would be a steep mountain to most of us. If I knew that was frequently a requirement I would have asked a salesman about it.

I understand your point of view from your perspective. But for those of us living here, driving into or through the Sierras is simply a part of living here, and I think we are entitled to assume that cars sold here are up to that common task.

 

I-80 through the Sierras has an average daily traffic count of 26,500.


Edited by mwr, 02 December 2014 - 12:52 AM.

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#42 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 09:19 AM

Just for fun I looked in the 2015 Accord Hybrid OM and the 2013 Camry Hybrid OM and they both can use snow chains. 

HAH's are a different type of hybrid. TCH's are the same type but have a different collinear shaft architecture whereas the FFH is a combination of collinear and parallel shafts. The FFH eCVT is substantially bigger than the TCH so it is surprising that it is restricted.

None of the FFH's are approved for towing. I did securely lash a bench to the top of my 2010 FFH for a 400 mile interstate 70mph trip in 98ºF. temperatures. MPG went from 40 to 30 with no other effects at all. That is additional strain on the drivetrain but it is not jerky like traction aids.

You could probably put cables on a FFH and get away with it with very careful driving but if you broke the eCVT it would cost a bundle and not be covered by the warranty. Sorry !


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#43 OFFLINE   Easy Rider

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 09:36 AM

I couldn't disagree with you more.

That's fine but that doesn't make you "right".

 

Caveat emptor governs much of the commerce in the US; Let the buyer beware.

If they outright lied to you that's a different matter.

 

Since roughly 90% or more (just a guess)of the driving public never encounters those conditions, I doubt that any court would require Ford or any other company to emphasize that requirement in their sales information.

 

If you REALLY do that much driving in "chains required" areas, I think it is just common sense that you would ask BEFORE you buy.



#44 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 11:50 AM

I don't think it has anything to do with the hybrid system.  As I pointed out, even the base Fusion is only allowed snow chains on 16in tires.  The FFH has never been sold with 16in tires, therefore no FFH has ever been allowed snow chains.

 

If you look at the Honda or Toyota OGs, you'll see they very specifically recommend certain chain models or provide very specific dimensions.  Ford has obviously decided that's too complicated for customers, so they just use a generic snow chain clearance "zone" and decide either yes or no.


Edited by Waldo, 02 December 2014 - 11:56 AM.


#45 OFFLINE   GrySql

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 12:11 PM

That's fine but that doesn't make you "right".

Caveat emptor governs much of the commerce in the US; Let the buyer beware.

If they outright lied to you that's a different matter.

Since roughly 90% or more (just a guess)of the driving public never encounters those conditions, I doubt that any court would require Ford or any other company to emphasize that requirement in their sales information.

If you REALLY do that much driving in "chains required" areas, I think it is just common sense that you would ask BEFORE you buy.

When buying a new vehicle most of us made assumptions based on what our prior knowledge of cars happened to be.  That is where this FFH can fool you, it doesn't work like most.

We have many people that come here to research the FFH before they purchase one, they may not know how to find a Owner's Manual online.

Since the introduction of the 2013 FFH I don't recall that the snow chain question has come up on this Forum.

 

Your assumption that 90% of the driving public doesn't encounter snow chain winter conditions doesn't quite hold up to the facts.

There are only 7 States that don't have snow chain laws, Florida is one of them.

There are 14 States that have snow chain laws that may require their use when the highway authority deems the roads unsafe without them.  Chain up or park your car.

AZ, CA, CO, ID, MD, MT, NY, OR, PA, SD, UT, VA, WA and WY hold a lot of people and all of them are subject to the mandatory chain laws, when encountered.

http://ecx.images-am...71MW0ViVybS.pdf

 

I doubt that every person that buys a car in those states remembers to ask if the FFH can use chains.

Making a comment that another member didn't use common sense when they bought their car is not helpful.

 

--

Waldo, our Ford Rep asked the Ford Hybrid expert about this and his comment was: "Traction aid devices are not approved for use on this vehicle because the Hybrid powertrain cannot accommodate the additional strain introduced by these types of devices."  If you can't trust the 'Hybrid Expert', who can you trust?? 

Anyway, it has already been shown that Fusions with 17" wheels can use 'traction devices' just fine.
 


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#46 OFFLINE   murphy

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 02:55 PM

I've lived in PA all of my life and have not used chains since all season (M+S) tires were invented.  The last time I bought "snow" tires they had a tread that was at least an inch deep and had holes to install studs.  I don't see anyone advertising those anymore.



#47 OFFLINE   Easy Rider

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 07:35 PM

Your assumption that 90% of the driving public doesn't encounter snow chain winter conditions doesn't quite hold up to the facts.

 

AZ, CA, CO, ID, MD, MT, NY, OR, PA, SD, UT, VA, WA and WY hold a lot of people and all of them are subject to the mandatory chain laws, when encountered.

 

While I pulled that number out of the air, your facts don't really refute it because......those entire states don't have conditions that warrant such actions, EVER.  Arizona and California are the best examples but parts of the other states never see a need either.



#48 OFFLINE   hermans

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 09:36 AM

"Traction aid devices are not approved for use on this vehicle because the Hybrid powertrain cannot accommodate the additional strain introduced by these types of devices."

 

If this is the case, Ford should be advertising that fact and printing it in their FFH and MKZh brochures. I look at this from a legal viewpoint. There are many areas in the US and Canada that require chains (as pointed out by other posters in this thread). If I lived in such an area and found out, after the fact, that Ford does not recommend anything beyond snow tires, but the local laws do and it was not disclosed anywhere in their advertising, Ford and I would be doing the "legal dance." Most people base their buying decision in advertising and then informing themselves about the product. I'll bet the dealers will tell you that you can use tire chains on the hybrids during periods of heavy snow.

 

I will test that theory out in the next several days and report what I find.

OK, I've been to 4 Ford/Lincoln dealers and asked 6 salesmen, "can I use tire chains or cables in heavy snow conditions on my Fusion hybrid?" All six replies ranged from, "sure no problem" "yes" to "I don't see why you couldn't." Ford really needs to disclose this in their upfront advertising.

 

The posters comment, "It was mentioned in the owner's guide which was available to you before you made your purchase." is just outlandish. No where does Ford recommend reading the owners manual before purchasing the car and suggesting people should do so is really stretching the rubberband beyond its capacity.

 

My time was really not wasted as my Christmas shopping is done and I looked at a number of 2015 Mustangs. I did this in the Detroit area during Thanksgiving week and really liked what I saw. Next step the test drive. 


Edited by hermans, 03 December 2014 - 09:38 AM.

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#49 OFFLINE   Hybrider

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 09:59 AM

...

My time was really not wasted as my Christmas shopping is done and I looked at a number of 2015 Mustangs. I did this in the Detroit area during Thanksgiving week and really liked what I saw. Next step the test drive. 

 

And to read the Owner's Manual. ;)


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#50 OFFLINE   Easy Rider

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 10:06 AM

 Ford really needs to disclose this in their upfront advertising.

 

Don't hold your breath; it ain't gonna happen.

 

They COULD and should, however, see to it that their sales staff is aware of the limitation.....in those areas where it might be a problem for the owners.

 

Then maybe they DO know and are just lying to you.

 

My salesman told me that updates to the GPS maps are free.

Brain cramp or dishonest ????


Edited by Easy Rider, 03 December 2014 - 10:07 AM.


#51 OFFLINE   hermans

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 10:23 AM

In late 2012 I was invited to my dealer's factory reps presentation to the sales personnel of the 2013 FFH. I sat in on a three hour presentation and I can assure you there was no mention of the use of chains or cables. I remember the different wheel sizes and options being talked about and much was discussed about the drive-ability of the car and the fact that the front bumper height was low, as one of the salesmen had already scraped one up.


Edited by hermans, 03 December 2014 - 10:25 AM.

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#52 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 10:33 AM

This is why you should always get everything in writing. If you had a written document from the dealer assuring your that GPS map updates are free then you could go to the dealer with that document and request the new A5 card at no cost. If you had in writing from the dealer trained hybrid technician that it's ok to use chains then you could have that as your protection in case of a warranty issue.


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#53 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 11:08 AM

With the low clearance of the FFH and limited wheel clearances for chains it is not a good choice for snowy mountains. It's mileage advantage in those situations almost evaporates also. I think traction aids are probably really hard on FWD light duty vehicle CV drive axles and transmissions. The transient effects on the components are more direct and difficult to deal with and there's a lot more electric motor mass being turned with the wheels. As the wheels jerk around that puts larger stresses on the gears. The Toyota motors are a lot smaller and lighter so the stress is probably less. The motor acts as a flywheel and wheel rpm instability must be dealt with by the gearing. There is no slipping or twisting like in a rear wheel driveshaft to take up some of the transient load. Transients are what break things as they're hard to predict. If you are determined to use a hybrid in these conditions you need to get another make.


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#54 OFFLINE   SteveB_TX

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 11:09 AM

 

 


My time was really not wasted as my Christmas shopping is done and I looked at a number of 2015 Mustangs. I did this in the Detroit area during Thanksgiving week and really liked what I saw. Next step the test drive. 

 

I bought a 2015 Mustang GT yesterday!  White (of course) with all the options.  I will post pics when I get a chance.  :)


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#55 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 11:31 AM

 

The posters comment, "It was mentioned in the owner's guide which was available to you before you made your purchase." is just outlandish. No where does Ford recommend reading the owners manual before purchasing the car and suggesting people should do so is really stretching the rubberband beyond its capacity.

 

 

I'm not suggesting you need to read the Owner's Manual, I'm saying that Ford has published the chain recommendation and it's available to anyone before purchase.  What's the difference between "upfront advertising" and the Owner's Manual?  The fact that the salespeople don't know their facts is a different issue, but if you wanted to know Ford's position on chains before you purchased the vehicle, the information was available.

 

Ford has been restricting/limiting chain use for decades, this is really nothing new.  From the 1997 Lincoln Mark VIII OG:

 

To prevent body damage, do not use snow chains on your Mark VIII.

Edited by Waldo, 03 December 2014 - 11:35 AM.

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#56 OFFLINE   hermans

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 11:39 AM

The difference is up front advertising are the brochures at the dealer that customers can and should read before ordering/purchasing the car. I certainly did. The owner's manual is not available for review at the dealership - unless you take one  out of an existing car on the lot. And, that is just unreasonable. You are flogging a dead horse here. Your arguments just do not hold water.


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#57 OFFLINE   hermans

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 11:41 AM

 

 

 

I bought a 2015 Mustang GT yesterday!  White (of course) with all the options.  I will post pics when I get a chance.  :)

I'm seriously thinking of getting one. I have two classic Mustangs, both are investment cars.


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#58 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 12:51 PM

The difference is up front advertising are the brochures at the dealer that customers can and should read before ordering/purchasing the car. I certainly did. The owner's manual is not available for review at the dealership - unless you take one  out of an existing car on the lot. And, that is just unreasonable. You are flogging a dead horse here. Your arguments just do not hold water.

 

So you want everything that the vehicle can't do to be listed in the brochure?  It would be hundreds of pages long!  Did the car you test drove not have an owner's manual in it?  They are also available online to anyone, that's how I found out the info about Toyota and Honda's recommendations.

 

The big picture is there is a very small number of Ford customer's that are concerned about the use of snow chains and for those customer's, the information they need is available to them. 

 

When contemplating a purchase of a vehicle, one must think about all the requirements they have for the vehicle.  For example, one of my requirements was to have a trunk big enough to hold my kids stroller.  Should Ford publish in their brochure that the trunk is big enough to hold my stroller?  Of course not, that's why it's up to me to actually open the trunk and check, before buying the car.  If one of your requirements is that you be able to traverse mountain passes where chains are required, I don't see why it's so unreasonable for a buyer to make sure the car is capable of meeting this requirement before they purchase.  Again, if the question was asked and the answer was "yes", then that is a different issue and there are legal recourses for that.


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#59 OFFLINE   GrySql

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 01:09 PM

 

 

 

I bought a 2015 Mustang GT yesterday!  White (of course) with all the options.  I will post pics when I get a chance.  :)

Congrats!  I always liked my Mustangs, long ago I restored a May '64 Convertible.  I sold it to a collector in Finland in 1989 for $10k, drove it on the ships ramp for export.

 

I looked at the 2015's when I was at the Dealer two weeks ago, they are quite a step up from the past cars. 

Good news, they can use ultra low profile snow cables!

"Use chains on the tires only in an emergency or if the law requires them."


Edited by GrySql, 03 December 2014 - 01:12 PM.

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Posted 03 December 2014 - 01:42 PM

 

I bought a 2015 Mustang GT yesterday!  White (of course) with all the options.  I will post pics when I get a chance.  :)

 

As promised, here are the pics...          Attached File  20141203_123506.jpg   47.93KB   15 downloadsAttached File  20141203_123529.jpg   56.48KB   6 downloadsAttached File  20141203_123538.jpg   53.41KB   6 downloads

 

:lol:


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