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Guest Message by DevFuse

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What blend of gasoline are you using?

gas ethanol mileage

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21 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Ryan Goodlett

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 09:56 PM

I was just reading some EPA testing mumbo jumbo and it made me think about the gasoline we put in our tank.  Some of us could really be benefiting from 100% gasoline where others are getting a blend of gasoline and ethanol which is proven to have less BTU resulting in less power and economy.

 

I have been using 85/15E and getting 41.5 avg per tank.  I am wondering if I switch over to 100%, which I will have to seek out around here in Houston, will it bring my mileage up any and how much?

 

What blend of gasoline are you using?


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#2 OFFLINE   DeeCee

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 10:04 PM

I have been using 87/10E ever since I got the FFH. My lifetime mpg is now 47.5 per the car's computer. Actual is 46 mpg. My latest tank average is sitting right at 49 mpg.


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#3 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 07:15 AM

In MN our fuel is 90/10 (E10). Some gas stations sell 85/15 (E15). And lots sell E85 which can't be used in the FFH. I believe MN is the leading state in the country at selling E85 gas. A few gas stations sell "non-oxygenated" premium fuel which I belive is 100% gasoline, however it costs about $4.25+/gallon versus less than $3.50 for the regular E10 fuel.


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#4 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 08:16 AM

The added costs outweigh any increase in MPG, so not really worth the effort, nor the additional miles spent to get it. You could benefit more by running 89 octane than pure gas, but again the costs outweigh the benefits.  Just put good gas in from places like Shell or BP, and not cheap stuff from some unknown retailer. 


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#5 OFFLINE   corncobs

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 09:52 PM

Well that's an advantage I take from our Sam's Club membership.
The gas is the cheapest in CL sometimes as much as 20 cents compare to the one near my house.

Never had any issue whatever the ratio is with the 87.
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#6 OFFLINE   Sleddog

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 07:06 AM

Been running 87 with up to 10% ethanol since the car was new.  I find the cheapest gas I can.  My lifetime is 52mpg.  So running 100% 87 or higher will not gain you anything.  You can 100% in my area, but the price is over 4.30 a gallon.  Not worth it, IMO. 


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#7 OFFLINE   Easy Rider

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 08:40 AM

This is a confusing thread.

It would be good to keep the "octane" numbers and ethanol numbers clearly separated.

 

I think the initial 85/15 mentioned is ONLY ethanol concentration and has nothing to do with octane.

 

E10 has about 4% less energy than E0 so if the price difference is less than 4% it might be a good buy because it WILL give you slightly better mileage.

The difference with E15 might be as much as 6%.



#8 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 10:04 AM

The only reason to get Ethanol free gas is for older cars, lawn equipment, or performance cars. In the hybrid the MPG increase would be no different than if you put premium in it, which would usually work out to be the same cost, and in our cars 1 or 2 MPG increase is nothing.  All our cars are designed to handle 10% ethanol.

 

OTOH, if you can take a performance engine and convert it to run E85, the HP and torque gains exceed what you can see with high octane fuel.  Its too bad I cant run E85 in the EB MKT.  I am seeing the E85 is almost $1 less than regular.


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#9 OFFLINE   Easy Rider

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:42 AM

The only reason to get Ethanol free gas is for older cars, lawn equipment, or performance cars.

In the hybrid the MPG increase would be no different than if you put premium in it,

 

  I am seeing the E85 is almost $1 less than regular.

You do hold on to some unusual mis-conceptions.  :)

 

At a given octane rating, E0 has 3-4% more energy content than E10.

That is a scientific fact.

Therefore, most people who are able to make a comparison between the two (at the same octane rating) find slightly better mileage with E0.

If the only E0 you can get is "premium", then the price difference often is MORE than what you would save with the slightly higher mileage......and the higher octane does nothing in an engine not designed for it.

 

Higher octane fuel of the same type does NOT have any higher energy content and therefore gives you no benefit in an engine that doesn't need it.

 

E85 has something like 35% less energy content (didn't look that up however) so paying a dollar a gallon less BUT getting 35% less mileage might NOT be such a good deal after all.


Edited by Easy Rider, 20 July 2014 - 11:43 AM.

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#10 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 06:14 PM

If I were to run E85 it would not be for MPG, but for power.  When tuned for it, E85 engines can produce much more power than the equivalent e0 octane rating.  Check out funny car racing, they run pure alcohol.  There is one guy with an EB Flex putting out 600 HP at the wheels on E85.

 

Again of course you overlook the part that this is a Hybrid engine, where it does not function the same as a regular gas engine does, so BTU really wont make much difference, the end results would be negligible. I see your point in a regular gas car, 3-4% in a regular car is quite substantial, but in the hybrid, you wont even notice it.     I also do understand Octane, the higher the octane the slower the burn rate, so running it in a high compression engine wont cause detonation like 87 would, however since cars can now adjust timing based on type of fuel, running higher octane fuels can result in better fuel economy, Case in point the F150 I had, Took it in because it seemed to be sucking gas, getting only 16 MPG when it should have been closer to 18, and I was told by Ford to run Premium if I want to see that kind of mileage.  I was skeptical of course but did it any way, and they were right I was up to 19 MPG running on Premium instead of 87.

 

But this is in a Turbo charged V6, not an Atkinson 4.    My Flex always ran on 89 Octane, and now so does my MKT, and both see 22 MPG or better(unless pulling a trailer, then its 12), I did run 87 octane in it a few times when gas spiked, and I did see a slight drop off, however, I also ran the same 89 in the Fusion since the place I got gas at, 89 was their lowest grade for the same price as all the others sold 87 at.  Since that place closed I now run 87 in the Fusion and I see no difference in MPG.

 

Now for my lawn equipment and my gas powered planes, I would run non ethanol if I could get it, the seals and lines will last much longer. I had a line trimmer that I stored with fuel in it, and when I went o use it, the fuel poured right out of the tank, through a hole where the fuel line USED to be, the ethanol ate the fuel lines. Both lines disintegrated.  Right now I use ethanol saver 2 cycle oil. Hoping it keeps the seals and lines from rotting out.


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#11 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 07:52 PM

In my experience Ethanol Free Gas was worth 1-3mpg depending on what kind of MPG's you are getting, 40mpg aprrox. 2 MPG improment and 60mpg about 3mpg. It's not worth the extra cost, but it is nice to see how far you can go on a tank of gas. :) 

 

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#12 OFFLINE   Easy Rider

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:51 AM

If I were to run E85 it would not be for MPG, but for power.  When tuned for it, E85 engines can produce much more power than the equivalent e0 octane rating.  Check out funny car racing, they run pure alcohol.  There is one guy with an EB Flex putting out 600 HP at the wheels on E85.

 

 

Your examples are like comparing an ant hill to a mountain.  And it seems like I remember that alcohol funny cars use METHANOL and not the ethanol that goes into road gas.

A jet airplane engine burns basically kerosene and they make thousands of horsepower.  That fact has no bearing on the current discussion either.

 

Secondly, there is an upper limit to the timing adjustments and engines not designed to use "premium" octane levels will never advance the timing enough to benefit from it.

 

You seem to know a lot of facts but your interpretation of what they mean is often way off base.



#13 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:02 PM

Well I did run a tank of BP premium ethanol free in my MKT on the highway and saw no difference in fuel economy, it was getting the same as it did with 89 octane. 

 

It has all kinds of bearing on this subject. you brought it up. You said it has less energy, however,  when TUNED for E85 it produces a lot of power, E85 has an octane rating of about 105, but if not tuned for it, you just waste it, It isnt meant for fuel economy, but for cleaner emissions.  However the main subject is what blend are you running, while you are going around saying that running non E gas will increase MPG, you are blanket stating it, in our Hybrid engine, the difference is so minute it is NOT worth it.  You would get the same difference running Premium, which is nothing at the percentages we are at. In a regular gas car, the difference can be noticed, 3-4% when getting 20 MPG can be seen, but 3-4% when you are already in the 40's would barely be noticed. 

 

IOW It is not worth the effort, added cost, or having to go out of your way to get it.  Just put 87 regular pump gas in and be happy with it. 


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#14 OFFLINE   tr7driver

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:44 PM

I always ask for a rental car the uses e85 so I can fill it up with the cheap stuff when I return it. 


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#15 OFFLINE   Easy Rider

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 03:49 PM

 

It has all kinds of bearing on this subject. you brought it up. You said it has less energy, however,  when TUNED for E85 it produces a lot of power,

 

 You would get the same difference running Premium,

 

I don't know if you are just not getting it or are just being stubborn.

One LAST TIME:

 

We are talking about fuel EFFICIENCY; that is, distance traveled per unit of fuel used.

You can ***NOT*** create energy in the fuel  that is not there in the first place with engine design changes.

The engines that are "tuned for E85 and produce a lot of power" get about 5 miles to the gallon.

 

And "premium" does NOT have more energy content.  In fact, depending on how you boost the octane rating it sometimes has slightly less.

With an engine not designed to take advantage of the higher octane, you likely will see exactly ZERO difference in power or fuel economy.

That is NOT true of using a fuel with a lower energy density.

Whether you notice it or not, there IS a difference and others who have had the opportunity to test it mostly see the 3-4% difference.

 

I quit.   

Please read the above over and over until you understand it.

There will be no further replies from me in this thread.



#16 OFFLINE   jeff_h

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 06:46 PM

There will be no further replies from me in this thread.

 

Well there's some good news.


Edited by jeff_h, 21 July 2014 - 06:48 PM.

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#17 OFFLINE   Easy Rider

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:19 AM

 

Well there's some good news.

 

And there is a really rude and unnecessary insult.


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#18 OFFLINE   darrelld

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:00 AM

I use 87/10E usually purchased from Murphy or Kroger. Downloaded an app for the iphone called Pure Gas and it says no 100% gasoline within 100 miles of me.


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#19 OFFLINE   Sleddog

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 10:51 AM

 
And there is a really rude and unnecessary insult.


You would know. You seem to be an expert at it.
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#20 OFFLINE   Ryan Goodlett

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 01:08 PM

Sorry for the confusion.  The focus should be on different blends of ethanol and gasoline versus 100% gasoline.

 

1.  Octane rating has nothing to do with efficiency or performance at the wheels.  It is about controlling the ignition of the fuel.  The resistance of the fuel preigniting.

 

2.  The higher the ethanol blend, the lower the BTU output of the fuel.  BTU output = HP and efficiency.

 

My discussion goal is this.....  does running no ethanol result in better mileage versus running an ethanol blend.  It is measurable in the real world with these cars?  Either it is huge or miniscule in comparison to regular ICE cars.


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