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Understanding the FFH better with a ScanGauge

ScanGauge II XGauges Fusion Hybrid performance monitoring fuel economy efficiency MPGs

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63 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 11:13 AM

Future equations will look to establish a relationship between trip length & MPG, outside temp and MPG, beginning coolant temp & MPG and more. I also want to make use of the beginning coolant temp data to try to create an equation that predicts the warm-up MPG penalty versus starting with a warm ICE. A warm ICE will be defined as a starting coolant temp of 40oC or higher since 40oC is the threshold for turning off the ICE.


Edited by hybridbear, 28 October 2013 - 11:16 AM.

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#42 OFFLINE   corncobs

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 11:24 AM

I wonder if Ford engineers read this and think how much further do these guys wanna reverse engineer our hybrid system.

Very cool stuff HB.
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#43 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 09:00 AM

I typed up another 15 trips worth of data today and then updated my useable SOC to overall SOC graph & trendline. I now have 88 data points. The trend line changed slightly, but not to a meaningful degree. The r2 is now .998 indicating that the data is now even more accurate.

updatedgraph_zps04648df1.jpg

 

I also have more data now regarding SOC changes while the car is turned off.

 

Friday we drove over 50 miles throughout the day and arrived home in the evening with the HVB temp in the high 70s and the useable SOC showing 49%, Saturday morning the HVB temp was in the mid 70s as the car had sat overnight underground. The useable SOC had jumped to showing 55% when I started the car.

 

On Saturday at one point the HVB temp was in the upper 60s and I parked the car outside for about 5 hours. When I came back and started it again the HVB temp had dropped into the upper 40s as the outside temp was in the 30s. During this time the useable SOC dropped 7%. While driving the car home the HVB temp reached the lower 70s. I was only home for about a half hour before leaving again. Upon starting the car to leave the useable SOC had jumped 14% versus the number when I turned the car off.

 

On Sunday, while the car sat outside and the HVB cooled compared to when the car was shut off I got back in after about an hour off and parked in the cold to find that the useable SOC had dropped 11% while the car was sitting. Later on in the day the useable SOC jumped 19% when the car was parked with a warm HVB for a few minutes while running an errand. From my last trip on Sunday to starting the car to drive to work today the useable SOC jumped 6% while it sat underground. When I got home on Sunday the car had been outside for a few hours and thus the HVB temp rose from Sunday night to Tuesday morning.

 

It seems that the useable SOC will jump around when the HVB temp changes while the car is off. If the HVB cools below its ideal operating temp of low 70s then the useable SOC drops. If the HVB temp rises from having been cold to its ideal temp of low 70s the SOC seems to rise. You'll also see the useable SOC rise for your next trip if you start a trip with a cold HVB, warm it up through driving and then turn off the car. I see this consistently when I take the car to work and then run errands after. The car starts the day with a warm HVB from being parked underground. My end SOC when I arrive at work is significantly higher than what the car displays when I leave work in the afternoon since the HVB cooled significantly during the day. After I drive and warm up the HVB I then see a jump in SOC the next time I start the car.


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#44 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 09:11 AM

A 60% degradation of the HVB did not affect the MPG of a gen 1 Prius in these government tests: http://avt.inel.gov/...life_test_1.pdf

The transient demands on a HEV HVB require that it only not fail in an open or short circuit mode.

The system monitors for both events and in the case of an open cicuit the vehicles become inoperative and coast to the road side. I doubt that any HVB variations are causing the low mpg that some posters are reporting. As winter approaches, be prepared for a new spate of low mileage reports.



#45 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 09:42 AM

Future tests I'd like to run would include bringing the car to a complete stop from various starting speeds (i.e. 55 MPH, 45 MPH, 35 MPH, etc) to see how much the SOC climbs in each case. Based on what we now know we can thus reverse engineer the amount of electricity that went back into the battery from that stop. Since we know the beginning speed we can calculate how much kinetic energy the moving vehicle possessed at that speed. Factoring in approximations for tire rolling resistance we can approximate how efficient the regen braking is.

 

I'd also like to run some tests where I accelerate from 0 MPH to a set speed and then brake back down to 0 MPH. I would monitor the beginning and ending SOC which would allow us to see how much electricity is lost due to the inefficiencies of the electric motors and from transmission losses in the high voltage wires. However, winter is here and I'm not going to do these tests in the cold. They'll likely have to wait until next spring.


Edited by hybridbear, 29 October 2013 - 09:43 AM.

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#46 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 10:37 AM

I'd really like to gather more data. The spreadsheet I'm using for tracking only takes a few seconds at the beginning and end of each trip to document. Is there anyone else who has a ScanGauge and is interested in this? I could send you my spreadsheet template and then I could gather more data. The challenge for me is that almost all of our trips are less than 7 miles, with many being less than 3 miles. On such short trips the swings in MPG are huge! It would be nice to get data from a user who drives a longer commute to gather data for longer trips. If there's anyone interested, please let me know!


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#47 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 08:37 AM

Watching the LOD and HP outputs more closely it seems that the FFH ICE is most efficient when the overall power demand is at least 31 HP. Between 31 and 46 HP the LOD shows >85. If you go above 46 HP then your acceleration coach bar will drop below 100%. It's only possible to achieve this level of load with the generator placing a load on the engine to charge the HVB. You would have to really accelerate hard to get this kind of power demand just for acceleration. Accelerating between 1.5 & 2 bars on the Empower screen seems to be the optimal acceleration point for this.

 

This leads me to believe that in the range of 31-46 HP the ICE is operating in its most efficient BSFC range.


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#48 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 10:01 PM

Here are some recent battery observations in the cold...

I've seen the car limit power in EV to only 1 bar on the Empower screen even when SOC is high in the cold. It appears that this happens when the heat is on and the coolant is almost too cold to continue making heat. Thus the car limits your EV by kicking the ICE on at lower power demands. I've also seen the 1 bar limit to EV when the HVB is very cold. With our cold weather I've seen the HVB temp be below 0. When the HVB is cold there is a noticeable difference in how it operates. When it's that cold it discharges much more quickly and charges more slowly. Since it discharges more quickly when very cold you cannot get as many amps out of it which limits how many watts the electric motor can provide to the wheels. In the cold weather after the car sits outside the HVB might only warm up about 30 degrees above ambient after an hour of driving. Once the cabin temp heats up the car will turn on the HVB fans to warm up the battery. Once the battery warms up then you can get more than just 1 bar of EV.

 

Since we park underground the car & HVB start out at about 60F in the morning. On some of my longer drives to Owatonna I have seen that the HVB reaches about 75F. In the summer I don't recall ever seeing the HVB fans come on with an HVB temp of 75F. With outside temps less than 10F it seems that the HVB fans come on early in my drive and run constantly. I usually have the HVAC set to 68 or 69. When I do a long drive after the car has been sitting all day and the HVB temp is cold, I've noticed that once the cabin warms up the HVB fans come on. I assume that at this point the HVB fans are on to warm up the HVB since the cabin is warmer than the HVB temp.


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#49 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 12:14 PM

Thats pretty much what I thought. With the BD, I noticed that after they had road tested it several times in a matter of a few hours, it was able to get over 2 bars of EV, which it never did before(someone noticed it in the video I took as well).  I did notice a big difference in the cold temps with EV and ICE performance in my current car, which is what contributes to the lower MPG that I am seeing. 

 

We dont need an ICe block heater, we need a battery pack heater! 


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#50 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 02:38 PM

Thats pretty much what I thought. With the BD, I noticed that after they had road tested it several times in a matter of a few hours, it was able to get over 2 bars of EV, which it never did before(someone noticed it in the video I took as well).  I did notice a big difference in the cold temps with EV and ICE performance in my current car, which is what contributes to the lower MPG that I am seeing. 

 

We dont need an ICe block heater, we need a battery pack heater! 

If you turn off the Inst MPG gauge the bars change. I always have the instant MPG on. 2 bars with Inst MPG on is not equal to 2 bars with Inst MPG off.


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#51 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 01:47 PM

In an earlier post I referenced how the battery display on the dash isn't linear. Notice how in the pic below the useable SOC is 75%, but the battery icon is much more than 3/4 full. At some point I need to catalog with pictures difference intervals of SOC to compare to the battery icon to post.

33B5C988-8496-4A44-B392-97C34533509E_zps


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#52 OFFLINE   jmellen

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:56 PM

I would expect the SG II SOC value to be a percent with 100 being HVB being fully charges.  What I saw tonight when I programmed that number was -1900 while sitting in my driveway.  The ignition was on and the battery graphic indicated about 50% charge.  As I sat there the negative number slowly increased like -1902, -1903, -1905...  I double checked my entering of the data for SOC in X gauges on the SG II.  I am puzzled.  Any thoughts?  I have tried three more codes and they all work fine.


257870.png


#53 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 09:42 AM

I would expect the SG II SOC value to be a percent with 100 being HVB being fully charges.  What I saw tonight when I programmed that number was -1900 while sitting in my driveway.  The ignition was on and the battery graphic indicated about 50% charge.  As I sat there the negative number slowly increased like -1902, -1903, -1905...  I double checked my entering of the data for SOC in X gauges on the SG II.  I am puzzled.  Any thoughts?  I have tried three more codes and they all work fine.

See this post. The first two codes I list.

http://fordfusionhyb...-codes/?p=71237

 

Also check out this post: http://fordfusionhyb...ngauge/?p=69378

And this post: http://fordfusionhyb...ngauge/?p=69450


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#54 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 07:00 PM

Example of the non-linearity of the HVB gauge on the dash. SGII shows 75% SOC, battery appears more than 75% full

33B5C988-8496-4A44-B392-97C34533509E_zps


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#55 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 07:05 PM

I also posted this in the winter driving thread, but since it's ScanGauge related I'm also posting it here so that I'll remember where to find it for reference.

 

When the HVB is extremely cold your EV power is limited. While the dealer fixed the trunk on our new white FFH today they gave me our old black FFH to drive. The HVB temp when I left the dealer was 4.5 F according to the ScanGauge. The HVB would not run the car in EV mode at all. Any touch of the gas pedal would make the ICE come on. I didn't think to get a pic showing the low threshold. Once the HVB warmed up above 15F I was able to get 1/2 bar of EV as shown in the pic below. Once the HVB hit 20F I was able to get 1 bar of EV. I did not get normal EV operation back until the HVB was warmer than 32F. The HVB fans came on right away and ran non-stop to funnel heated cabin air across the HVB.

BDD2FB03-5014-443E-8196-DA4861E7DDE7_zps


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#56 OFFLINE   corncobs

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 07:09 PM

What happened to the old avg. MPG did you reset it? 21.9 that hurts.
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#57 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 07:31 PM

HVB's are like people. Little ones can't do much heavy work. Big ones are dangerous when they blow up. You have to feed them all the time. When they get old they lose strength and they don't like to do much when it's very hot or cold. We should name them.


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#58 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 08:08 PM

I have a perfect name for them, but dont want to start a war! LOL


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#59 OFFLINE   ptek

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 11:06 PM

This reminds me of something I've been wondering - I've seen tips about turning the climate control off or setting the temperature low so the ICE warms up fast and doesn't stay on due to "heater setting".  But if the HVB is too cold, then EV mode is either unavailable, or power is very limited.

 

So, is it better set the temp up and set the climate to Auto letting the ICE run and warm the cabin quickly, so that the cabin heat will help warm the battery?

 

It sounds like the worst case scenario would be to get in a below 0 F car and turn off the climate control, thinking you're going to get the ICE up to temp quicker.  With the heat off, the HVB never warms up, so the car little to no EV power.  All the while, both you and the car are freezing.

 

Disclaimer / confession - I haven't turned the heat off completely, but I usually set it to 72 F, floor only, with the fan at 1/3rd or so.  The cabin heats up, but it does take a while.  I do use the block heater to preheat the engine, and the seat warmers help me warm up, but do nothing for the HVB.


257590.png

257736.png


#60 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 12:21 AM

Most of us paid over 30K for these cars. We save about 1K a year on gas compared to our old cars. When it's hot, cold, wet, I punch Auto on the HVAC and drive. The car tries to get you comfortable as quick as it can. Enjoy the luxury every now and then.


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