2015 FFH, is steady 65 mph too fast for good mpg?

[Burke]

New to the forum here, and STRONGLY considering a 2015 SE FFH. Our lease on a 2013 Edge runs out this month, and hopefully I'll be driving a lot more due to work. I know I'll be driving a lot more due to school soon. So mpg's is a big concern.

 

My question relates to our test drive of a C-Max hybrid a couple years ago. We were lucky enough to get if for a hour or so. I noticed that the high mpg wasn't very high at what I call highway speeds. When I slowed down (too slow for a 65mph speed limit road) the mpg's shot up. I don't remember the specifics but there was a cutoff, above that speed it was pure gas and dissapointing mpg's.

 

I see now that Ford has modified the programming (at least). The FFH can go 85mph on pure electric? So will that give 'hybrid' mpg's at a crusing speed of 65 to 70mph? Driving on flat roads in Florida, speed limits of 60 to 65, not much stop and go. 30 to 45 mile one way trips. A salesman mentioned a 45mph cutoff and that the 2.5L might be a better bargin, meaning the extra cost of hybrid won't be realized in mpg's. Is he not up-to-date on the 2015 hybrids or am I seeing pie-in-the-sky?

 

By the way, we would have gotten that C-Max back in '13 except for the manual passenger seat. The driver seat was 10-way power, but the passenger side was manual! My wife drove it first and loved it. When I drove she hated the passenger side seat. She's had some back issues and NEEDS a seat that goes up and down. The Edge Limited was the cheapest thing at the time with at least a 6-way power passenger seat, so we've been paying for it... (Had an '09 Focus at the time)

 

Megan - Real happy to see the Fusion SE comes with a 6-way power passenger seat, gas or Hybrid, yeah! Now if Ford would only make them match (lumbar in both).

 

Anyway, trying to figure out if the extra cash is worth it with the driving I expect to do.

 

 

[acdii]

Compared to the Edge it is. In my observations, with 5 family members and luggage in the car driving from IL to MN, at 65 MPH it gets about 43 MPG in 70-80* weather, so the AC was also on. Above that the MPG will tank. 80 MPH will drop it to about 36-38. Also factor in head winds and tail winds.

 

If the Edge is anything like the Flex or MKT on the highway, it was about 23 MPG, so you can nearly double the MPG in the Fusion. Once you start driving it, and get the feel for it, you might even be able to go above 43.

[Easy Rider]

My question relates to our test drive of a C-Max hybrid a couple years ago. We were lucky enough to get if for a hour or so. I noticed that the high mpg wasn't very high at what I call highway speeds. When I slowed down (too slow for a 65mph speed limit road) the mpg's shot up. I don't remember the specifics but there was a cutoff, above that speed it was pure gas and dissapointing mpg's.

 

In any "real" hybrid (non-plugin), nearly 100% of the energy used comes from the gas engine.

Read that again; it is a hard thing for some people to grasp.

 

So yes, the faster you go, the lower your mileage will be.......in ANY car.

The higher your overall average mileage is, the worse it will look because the number drops more.

 

If a big majority of your miles will be highway miles at relatively high speeds, a diesel might give you better average MPG numbers......but the fuel is a bit more expensive too.

 

In my FFH, the MPG number starts to creep down above 55 or so and seems to take a big drop above 70.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Easy Rider

[Automate]

Also note that wind resistance goes up based upon the speed squared. So if you double your speed from say 40 to 80 MPH the energy required to overcome the wind resistance goes up by a factor of 4.

[Burke]

Thanks for the replies everyone, the hybrid sounds promising! But I didn't mean to be comparing the FFH to the Edge, rather the Fusion stock 2.5L gas to the Fusion Hybrid.

 

ACDII - 43mpg with a load like that at 65 mph? Sign me up!

 

Easy Rider - Yes, that does make sense. The engine (and regen brakes) provide the energy.

 

I'm just hoping the threshold for gas only is faster than my expected crusing speed of 65, maybe 70. That C-Max we drove... can't remember what the sales girl said the threshold was, 48, 52, 62mph maybe? Still too slow for these roads, you're almost a traffic hazzard at 60. But the difference in mpg was fairly significant once I slowed down to below that threshold.

 

Two years later I'm hoping the technology is better. Especially since I read that thing about 85mph now being the top speed in all electric mode. That doesn't mean I'm planing on cruising at 80, rather hoping to get much better mpg at 65, or perhaps 70 (if I have a tail wind!).

 

 

[Waldo]

Do some searching on this forum and you'll note a lot of comments that using electric mode on the highway is not beneficial for fuel economy. Why burn fuel in the engine to charge the battery, then drain the battery to power the car, when you can just burn fuel in the engine to power the car? The key is running the engine in it's most efficient range, and generally at about 65mph you're in that range, so electric mode is not helpful. So then you're just comparing an Atkinson cycle 2.0L to a basic 2.5L engine, and there won't be that much difference, certainly not enough to justify the cost.

The only real benefit to the 85mph electric mode is the ability to regen down hills, which you don't have in Florida.

 

Now the C-max does have a bit more aero resistance than the Fusion (that's the only reason it's EPA numbers are different), so it's going to lose mpg faster at higher speeds, but there no "new technology" in a 2015 Fusion hybrid that's not in the C-max you drove.

[machoman1337]

A few months ago I drove about 220 km each way on a road trip from Vancouver to Seattle and back. Mostly flat freeway conditions. I was frequently exceeding the speed limit by a little bit - setting the eco cruise control (I do not have the adaptive one that maintains a preset distance from the car in front) to 110 or 120 kph (68-75 mph) depending on what the posted limit was (it would be 60, 65, or 70 mph).

 

My fuel economy was 6.0 L/100 km or 39 mpg. I had the A/C on for the entire trip which sucked up a bit more gas. If you're as intolerant of tropical heat as I am, you'll probably be running the A/C significantly more often than I would, since you live in Florida.

 

If high 30's mpg is good enough for you, then go for the FFH! I came from a 2008 Fusion with a gas-guzzling V6 so even low-30s would be incredibly high for me.

 

Fun fact: Over the xmas break I was in Florida on vacation and I rented a 2.5L Fusion SE. You can read about my experience here: http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/9643-my-experience-with-the-gas-model-of-the-2013-ford-fusion/and see if it's any help. I got 33 mpg cruising at 80 mph on I-95, with heavy use of A/C. But obviously, the mpg's going to be significantly lower in the typical rush hour traffic of the Miami/Fort Lauderdale area. If you think you'll be sitting in traffic a lot, the FFH or even the 1.5L ecoboost with the $300 start-stop option will have a huge advantage.

 

One thing to note is that many fancy options (if you're into those) are not available on the 2.5L, such as memory seats, leather, and a bunch of electronic tech. Thankfully, both front seats on the 2.5 are power adjustable if you get the SE trim.

[Cobra348]

I'm looking forward to the first highway run I take in the FFH after I get it. Of 3 that I take regularly, 2 are 65 MPH or better speed limit. Those will be a guide to how well I adapt to new driving techniques.

 

One run I plan on taking is to NC to see my brother. He's got a '12 FFH and swears he can do NC ==> NY on one tank. I want to better that (like have some noticeable gas level left?). Sibling competition, ya see.

[acdii]

OK, if comparing non Hybrid Fusion to FFH, then the difference is smaller, but, the FFH will still give better MPG in all respects. Try finding a 2.5L SE though, chances are you will have to order one as most dealers opt for the Ecoboost for inventory. I just did a search by me, none with the 2.5, they all have either a 1.5 Ecoboost or the 2.0 Ecoboost.

 

The 2.5 Is a good engine, the 10-12 Hybrid had a similar engine, same displacement, probably same engine with just a different valve train to make it atkinson cycle. On the highway its got very good MPG, in fact the 2010 Hybrid I had got up to 65 MPG on the highway, which surprised the hell out of me.

 

With either choice, hope you find what you are looking for.

[machoman1337]

I'm looking forward to the first highway run I take in the FFH after I get it. Of 3 that I take regularly, 2 are 65 MPH or better speed limit. Those will be a guide to how well I adapt to new driving techniques.

 

One run I plan on taking is to NC to see my brother. He's got a '12 FFH and swears he can do NC ==> NY on one tank. I want to better that (like have some noticeable gas level left?). Sibling competition, ya see.

 

From my personal observations, I can do at least 800 km on one tank, which is equal to 500 miles. I bet you can easily beat your brother's mileage score!

[jeff_h]

One run I plan on taking is to NC to see my brother. He's got a '12 FFH and swears he can do NC ==> NY on one tank. I want to better that (like have some noticeable gas level left?). Sibling competition, ya see.

 

Looking back at my old fill-ups, here are the tank results from my 2010 FFH from going from middle of VA to Syracuse (used to go every July for the Booilermaker run), and if you are from Oswego you can definitely gauge from there.

 

2009: 556 miles (took 13,91 gallons to fill) / 2010: 560 miles (took 13.87 gallons to fill) / 2011: 501 miles (took 12.53 gallons to fill) / 2012: 587 miles (took 14.93 gallons to fill)

 

So IIRC the 2010 FFH had a 17 gallon tank (most I ever put in was 16.18 gallons and the miles to E was less than 0), I assume the 2012 has the same capacity? If so, yeah I guess it's possible, I had several 600+ tanks, best was 639 miles on 15.42 gallons for 41.44 MPG. (but later beat that by a long shot with the 2013 FFH with 706 miles on 13.18 gallons for 53.55 MPG). So depending on where in NC and where in NY it's doable, but Oswego ain't exactly on the PA border. :)

[Easy Rider]

The engine (and regen brakes) provide the energy.

 

I'm just hoping the threshold for gas only is faster than my expected crusing speed of 65, maybe 70.

 

No offense intended here, honestly, but this is typical of the general public's misunderstanding of how a hybrid works.

 

The regen energy that is recaptured is energy that was previously spent by the gas engine; there is no new energy produced.

And given the fact that ALL of the energy really comes from the gas engine, details like "what is the max. speed for EV mode" are really meaningless.

 

It's a tough concept but is important.

[hybridbear]

I'm looking forward to the first highway run I take in the FFH after I get it. Of 3 that I take regularly, 2 are 65 MPH or better speed limit. Those will be a guide to how well I adapt to new driving techniques.

 

One run I plan on taking is to NC to see my brother. He's got a '12 FFH and swears he can do NC ==> NY on one tank. I want to better that (like have some noticeable gas level left?). Sibling competition, ya see.

I don't think you'll be able to do it. As Jeff says the 2010-12 FFH has a much larger gas tank. At freeway speeds your 2013+ FFH will hardly use less fuel than the 2010-12 FFH.

[hybridbear]

New to the forum here, and STRONGLY considering a 2015 SE FFH. Our lease on a 2013 Edge runs out this month, and hopefully I'll be driving a lot more due to work. I know I'll be driving a lot more due to school soon. So mpg's is a big concern.

 

My question relates to our test drive of a C-Max hybrid a couple years ago. We were lucky enough to get if for a hour or so. I noticed that the high mpg wasn't very high at what I call highway speeds. When I slowed down (too slow for a 65mph speed limit road) the mpg's shot up. I don't remember the specifics but there was a cutoff, above that speed it was pure gas and dissapointing mpg's.

 

I see now that Ford has modified the programming (at least). The FFH can go 85mph on pure electric? So will that give 'hybrid' mpg's at a crusing speed of 65 to 70mph? Driving on flat roads in Florida, speed limits of 60 to 65, not much stop and go. 30 to 45 mile one way trips. A salesman mentioned a 45mph cutoff and that the 2.5L might be a better bargin, meaning the extra cost of hybrid won't be realized in mpg's. Is he not up-to-date on the 2015 hybrids or am I seeing pie-in-the-sky?

 

By the way, we would have gotten that C-Max back in '13 except for the manual passenger seat. The driver seat was 10-way power, but the passenger side was manual! My wife drove it first and loved it. When I drove she hated the passenger side seat. She's had some back issues and NEEDS a seat that goes up and down. The Edge Limited was the cheapest thing at the time with at least a 6-way power passenger seat, so we've been paying for it... (Had an '09 Focus at the time)

 

Megan - Real happy to see the Fusion SE comes with a 6-way power passenger seat, gas or Hybrid, yeah! Now if Ford would only make them match (lumbar in both).

 

Anyway, trying to figure out if the extra cash is worth it with the driving I expect to do.

The previous max EV speed for the C-Max/Fusion Hybrid was 62 MPH. It was raised to 85 MPH back in summer 2013. The Fusion Energi/C-Max Energi had the 85 MPH max EV speed from the start.

 

Note: you may want to 10-way power passenger seat then. That is offered with certain packages.

 

There is no powertrain difference from 2013-2015. Since 2016 production starts soon it appears that 2016 will be the same. The rumors are that the 2017 Fusion will have a redesign and likely an improved hybrid powertrain.

 

If you want the best highway MPGs look at a diesel. If you really like the idea of a hybrid check out the Accord Hybrid or a Prius. The Accord Hybrid has a powertrain setup which is better optimized for highway MPGs than the Ford design. The Prius gets better MPGs because it's a tin can and is very light and aerodynamic.

 

Your overall lowest per mile cost may come from something like the new Volt though. With its increased EV range you would ultimately spend the least on fuel (gas & electric) with a plug-in hybrid. If you're a loyal Ford fan, check out the Fusion Energi. With the tax credit it usually doesn't cost any more than the FFH.

[lolder]

There is no crossover speed at which you get much better or worse mpg. The faster you go, the worse your mpg. Over a broad speed range the penalty is about 6 mpg per 10 mph. Rising temperatures improve mpg about 2 mpg per 10º F. My 2010 FFH gets about 46 mpg at 50 mph at 60º F. The 2013+'s are about 4 mpg better. In Summertime 70 mph highway driving I get 39 mpg. Moderate traffic on freeways sometimes creates a little tailwind that gives you a few mpg boost.

 

There are many reasons why many of us feel we need to drive fast. If you are able to remove some of those and drive at the speed limit and become a "RightLaneCruiser" as a poster on another blog calls himself, there are many rewards. I realize that is hard to do in many high pressure areas. Many who've accomplished it say the few minutes more time the trips have taken have significantly lowered their life stress.

Edited March 5, 2015 by lolder

[Burke]

No question that I'm a loyal Ford fan! So other options aren't really options ;-).

 

The way I see it ('course I can justify anything to myself if I put my mind to it!) is that the hybrid option will break even at 12,000 / year and 3.00 / gal., IF I believe the combined mpg ratings. We always seem to get just a little under the combined figures. We're doing 12,000/yr now and I expect that to increase, as well as the cost of gas. So...

 

The Energi on the other hand, the sticker price is a bit much right now. We're so dirt poor I don't think we can get anymore tax credits, but the leather will make my wife happy! I'll have to look over in the Energi forum to see if it's better long range/high speed performance.

[lolder]

The EnergI is an advantage for short range, low speed. It's heavier and worse at long range high speed. Remember leather is really hot to sit on in a sun drenched parked car in the south.

[acdii]

On the flip side, in a non hybrid vehicle, there is the sweet spot, where the engine is the most efficient at a given RPM. Some vehicles, this can be 60 MPH, while in others it can be near 70 MPH. This is where gearing, engine management and road conditions all come together to where the car can cruise at the given speed and use as little fuel to do it as possible. In the old Crown Vic I had, 68 MPH was its sweet spot, where it would sit at that speed all day and get over 25 MPG. For a 5000# full size sedan, that was pretty good as most compacts or mid size were getting that back then. The 2010 Fusion SPort, was about 63 MPH when it was in its sweet spot, 24-28 IIRC was what it would get, but I didn't do a lot of highway cruising, just one trip to the Dells when I first got it. My MKT is about 24 at 63 MPH, but it is temperamental as it was all over the place on my last trip, and really could not nail down its real sweet spot, too much head wind to deal with, but if I got behind a motor coach pulling another vehicle, it jumped to 28, and with adaptive cruise set to 2 bars, it kept nice pace in that slipstream. My fuelly shows that it was all over the place too, between 20 and 24 MPG. The Flex was much more consistent on highway, though I dont recall what it got as that was a long time ago and I only had 2 highway trips in it. The 2013 Flex I never had a chance to take it on a trip before totaling it out.

 

For hybrids though, the ppprius was the most efficient on the highway, I got 65 MPG coming back from PA in it, but it took some really good driving to get it, found a trick of trailing a flat bed semi by 2 seconds did it. Since it didn't have adaptive cruise, I had to constantly monitor my distance and throttle, so I was pretty well worn out after that trip. The 2010 I did several trip around Chicago on the Interstates, and always got good MPG, always above 40, and that including speeds up to 75 MPH. Difference between the 2010 and 13+ Hybrids is the ICE is on above 45 MPH, and that 2.5 ICE was very efficient at highway speeds, which is why I am surprised Ford changed it out for the 2.0.

 

Here is a suggestion, if you can find a 2.5 Fusion, and a Hybrid, take each one out on a highway cruise and see what the MPG is like in each one. Either car drives about the same, and will have about the same options in base trims. Chances are the 2.5 will most likely do very well at highway speeds, with consistent 30's.

[mwr]

at 65 MPH it gets about 43 MPG in 70-80* weather, so the AC was also on. Above that the MPG will tank. 80 MPH will drop it to about 36-38. Also factor in head winds and tail winds.

I get about the same. Cruising at 70 mph, I get about 41 mpg (about 43 displayed), and at 75 mpg about 39 mpg (41 displayed). Less weight than you were carrying, but (probably) more hills.

Edited March 8, 2015 by mwr

[Burke]

On the flip side, in a non hybrid vehicle, there is the sweet spot, where the engine is the most efficient at a given RPM. Some vehicles, this can be 60 MPH, while in others it can be near 70 MPH.

THIS is what I'm thinking of. Except I look at it as the engine being most efficient at a give HP output, let's say 20 horsepower. So if it only takes 12hp to cruise at 65 (I seem to remember this from somewhere but I'm grasping) then there's 8hp left to charge the battery. Then the engine can cycle on and off in it's most efficient state while the battery fills in the gaps. Total theory here.

 

The regen energy that is recaptured is energy that was previously spent by the gas engine; there is no new energy produced.

Ha, you're right! I see now, I fell into that same pitfall... otherwise we could put wind turbines on top to generate electricity while we drive...

 

Thanks again to everyone! All your comments have me fairly convinced that if we use this as our all-around car it's a no brainer. I oh so want to get a car with much higher mpgs, the FFH is finally affordable. We'll see how my wife likes the seats tomorrow. I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

[acdii]

Yeah you went all technical on mine. LOL Sweet spot is my laymans term for what you just posted. :)

 

Good luck, the Fusion is really a nice car, hope she likes it.

[Easy Rider]

Then the engine can cycle on and off in it's most efficient state while the battery fills in the gaps. Total theory here.

While some "purists" will argue the point, that IS the basic theory behind a hybrid car......any of them.

 

Run the gas engine near it's most efficient point as much as possible.

When all the output isn't needed to drive the car, charge the battery.

When more power is needed than what the engine will provide at it's sweet spot, use the battery to make up the difference.

 

Running off the battery alone while cruising down the highway makes some assumptions about being able to recharge it later that don't always turn out to be true.

[Easy Rider]

No question that I'm a loyal Ford fan! So other options aren't really options ;-).

 

In my 55 or so years of driving, I never owned a Ford.......until now.

 

Keep an open mind. There are other good things out there.

[wiscy67]

My answer to your question "Is steady 65 mph too fast for good mpg?" is No. It's not too fast. I drive mostly freeway in my daily commute of 23 freeway miles out of 27 total miles each way. I use Eco Cruise set to 65 mph and mainly set it and forget it. My results are usually around 59 mpg going and 46 mpg returning. The return trip covers 600 feet higher elevation so it's understandable the mileage difference between these two legs.

 

During my commute I try not to out think the car (the good engineers who programmed the car) by keeping the car from selecting the mode it otherwise would be using. I believe it's best to have the car charging the battery when it's in ICE mode and the higher the state of charge when it goes into EV mode the further I can go on battery during that stretch.

 

The exceptions to the set it and forget it rule happen as I navigate around traffic and hit + or - to speed up or slow down. Also, I've noticed that on some hills that the energy required to make the climb at 65 mph prevents the car from charging the battery. In those cases if dialing the speed back to 63 mph allows the car to charge the battery during that stretch of the climb then I do that before returning it to 65 mph, but it's rare.

[B25Nut]

A 1400 mile round trip that I took in December resulted in 43.2 mpg at an average speed of 68 mph. The majority of the time I was above 70 mph. If I know I'm approaching a downgrade, I try to drive so that the battery is near its lowest level before the descent.