Disappointing first fill up

[murphy]

WOW. 50miles on a tank of gas. Ouch! LOL

 

Paul

That's about what the Nascar Sprint Car Series cars get. They also need a new set of tires every time they fill up.

[ptjones]

That's about what the Nascar Sprint Car Series cars get. They also need a new set of tires every time they fill up.

That's funny I thought they got 5mpg, maybe with restrictor plate. Daytona and Talladega, they could probably make it all the way on one set of tires, Atlanta is another story, maybe 50miles or so. LOL :)

[Waldo]

When they went to sign-off the Ford GT they had to run a high-speed tire test that basically said you had to run the tires at the vehicle top speed for 30 minutes. Problem was the GT ran out of gas after 17 minutes.

[CCalvinN]

 

I think you're misunderstanding things a bit on this point. The fuel burned at idle is only more than a normal car when it's actively charging the battery. This extra fuel you "get back" by using the EV mode in the future. Once the battery is full, the fuel consumed at idle won't be much different than a normal car. But the same as a normal car means you are not taking advantage of the hybrid system, which means that it is bringing down your overall average. Mathematically, when you are in the range of high MPGs, any part of your drive that is in the range of a "normal" vehicle will bring down the number much faster than it will bring down the number in a "normal" car. In other words, you're not actually burning more fuel, you're just pulling down the average faster.

 

I guess I'll have to scratch off that first point then as I don't know why I'm getting lower fuel mileage.

 

Let me see if I can at least get this point right. Idling in a hybrid (or at least this hybrid) burns more fuel when it's charging the battery. That extra fuel is mitigated somewhat as I'll get extra fuel efficiency out of the battery. When it's not charging the battery it uses about the same (maybe a little more) fuel than a normal car when idling. So on a tank by tank basis as opposed to a trip by trip basis there isn't a big impact to fuel efficiency from idling. Right?

 

I can appreciate that there are techniques (such as adding grille covers) that can get more fuel efficiency from this car. But I'm not interested in squeezing out every bit of fuel efficiency out of this car. Yet. Right now I'm just concerned with comparing this car's fuel efficiency as I drive it to my previous car as I drove it. And right now after a month of driving roughly the same amount and in roughly the same way (if idling isn't costing me the extra fuel) then this car is getting 10% less fuel efficiency when it's promoted as getting 10% better fuel efficiency.

[acdii]

Remote start on these will eat up the fuel. I tried it and saw a huge difference myself. My dash told me 39 the pump told me 32. This was over a 3 week period of extreme cold, then I stopped doing it while it was still cold and the tank to pump difference changed to roughly 1 MPG difference. Also in cold temps, the battery efficiency is way down until the cabin fully warms and the pack warms up, until then EV periods are very short, so even with the ICE charging up the HVB while remote started, the car wont use that energy very much until after you have driven quite a few miles. In my case since the car is in a car port and essentially out in the cold, I can go 10 miles or more before I get full or near full EV out of it. In fact the blue bar on the Empower display doesn't exist for the first 5-8 miles.

[Easy Rider]

 

I guess I'll have to scratch off that first point then as I don't know why I'm getting lower fuel mileage.

 

You are making this MUCH harder than it really IS.

 

If you "waste" a gallon of gas in a car that gets 10 MPG and has a BIG tank, the impact on your overall mileage won't look like that much; it might drop it to 9.9.

 

If you waste that same gallon of gas in a car that gets 50 MPG and has a small tank, the overall impact on your average mileage looks huge; maybe down to 40 or less.

 

In any given situation (might be some obscure exceptions), your car and engine is more efficient than any "normal" car on the road.........including the time spent letting it "idle" to warm up. It might not look like it though because the change in numbers is bigger.

 

You are worrying too much.........like a lot of new hybrid owners.

[lolder]

Your driving is mostly highway and in this very cold weather I would expect the 1000 lb. lighter Focus to get equally as good mileage as the FFH. You can not gauge the difference in even a 300+ mile tank with the extreme weather you have been having. Don't worry about it.

[corncobs]

Remote start on these will eat up the fuel. I tried it and saw a huge difference myself. My dash told me 39 the pump told me 32. This was over a 3 week period of extreme cold, then I stopped doing it while it was still cold and the tank to pump difference changed to roughly 1 MPG difference. Also in cold temps, the battery efficiency is way down until the cabin fully warms and the pack warms up, until then EV periods are very short, so even with the ICE charging up the HVB while remote started, the car wont use that energy very much until after you have driven quite a few miles. In my case since the car is in a car port and essentially out in the cold, I can go 10 miles or more before I get full or near full EV out of it. In fact the blue bar on the Empower display doesn't exist for the first 5-8 miles.

Yours is parked "outside" correct so the HVB is likely to deep freeze over night every night.

When I picked up my FFH from my dealer on Monday after a few smaller fixes while I was out of town I had that same problem. It actually scared the sh** out of me since it would not go into EV mode even after the ICE was up to temp.

 

Because they did the emission recall update of the PCM I really thought something went wrong. Very slowly the blue frame started showing up but it would not stay in EV every little acceleration would kick in the ICE.

 

It took almost all the way to work before the behavior was somewhat back to normal.

 

I believe because she was sitting in the open for a few days the HVB temp went really low and it took some extra time for it to warm up again. Most definitely a scary situation but it's all back normal.

[acdii]

Yep thats exactly what mine does.

[CCalvinN]

You are making this MUCH harder than it really IS.

 

...

 

In any given situation (might be some obscure exceptions), your car and engine is more efficient than any "normal" car on the road.........including the time spent letting it "idle" to warm up. It might not look like it though because the change in numbers is bigger.

 

You are worrying too much.........like a lot of new hybrid owners.

 

 

Your driving is mostly highway and in this very cold weather I would expect the 1000 lb. lighter Focus to get equally as good mileage as the FFH. You can not gauge the difference in even a 300+ mile tank with the extreme weather you have been having. Don't worry about it.

 

(emphasis is mine)

 

These two statements are exactly where my disappointment comes from, as it shows where my expectation gap is. I'm not disappointed that I'm unable to achieve the advertised 41 mpg. I would never expect to get that especially in the winter. My point of comparison isn't what a FFH should get, or what it will get in the summer, or what other people do get. I'm only comparing against what I used to get in my Focus. Driving the same routes in the same extreme weather got me 32-34 mpg out of the Focus. It's getting me 30 mpg in the FFH.

 

I expected to get the same or slightly better mpg than the Focus. Anything above that would be icing on the cake. But I'm not even getting that.

 

 

 

 

 

I want to add one thing... beyond the mileage, I'm INCREDIBLY happy with Ginger. Her ride is nice and smooth, her tech toys are better than what I had, her interior is nicer, she's bigger than what I'm used to, and is just overall a step up in driving experience. I'm harping on this efficiency and trying to understand it better because it was the primary reason for purchasing it. I just didn't want to take a 'step back' in mileage in order to upgrade to a nicer car.

Edited March 5, 2015 by CCalvinN

[md13ffhguy]

Relax, and stop comparing apples and oranges. Fuel economy is best observed over the long haul. Let it warm up and see what that does to your average. If, over a period that includes an equal amount of warmer weather, your average meets or exceeds your expectations, will your cold weather performance even matter?

[Easy Rider]

I'm harping on this efficiency and trying to understand it better because it was the primary reason for purchasing it. I just didn't want to take a 'step back' in mileage in order to upgrade to a nicer car.

 

Several of us have been trying to say this nicely already so maybe some different wording is needed.

 

Your expectations are unrealistic. Simple as that.

 

A bigger car will almost NEVER get better mileage than a smaller and lighter "economy" model.

The bigger car weighs more and (probably) has a significantly higher aero drag. Because of that, it likely has a bigger power plant.

 

Given your prime objective, you probably should have gone with the Focus hybrid or Cmax or PIP.

 

The situation IS what it IS. Continuing to fret over it accomplishes nothing good.

[hybridbear]

Right now I'm just concerned with comparing this car's fuel efficiency as I drive it to my previous car as I drove it. And right now after a month of driving roughly the same amount and in roughly the same way (if idling isn't costing me the extra fuel) then this car is getting 10% less fuel efficiency when it's promoted as getting 10% better fuel efficiency.

And this is the issue. The window sticker MPG is not based on how you drive. It's based on the EPA test cycles. On the EPA test cycles the Fusion will use less fuel than the Focus. On your driving pattern the Fusion uses more gas than the Focus.

 

Idling is why you're getting such low MPG out of the Fusion. Stop idling the car and your MPG will be way better than the Focus.

 

These two statements are exactly where my disappointment comes from, as it shows where my expectation gap is. I'm not disappointed that I'm unable to achieve the advertised 41 mpg. I would never expect to get that especially in the winter. My point of comparison isn't what a FFH should get, or what it will get in the summer, or what other people do get. I'm only comparing against what I used to get in my Focus. Driving the same routes in the same extreme weather got me 32-34 mpg out of the Focus. It's getting me 30 mpg in the FFH.

 

I expected to get the same or slightly better mpg than the Focus. Anything above that would be icing on the cake. But I'm not even getting that.

 

I want to add one thing... beyond the mileage, I'm INCREDIBLY happy with Ginger. Her ride is nice and smooth, her tech toys are better than what I had, her interior is nicer, she's bigger than what I'm used to, and is just overall a step up in driving experience. I'm harping on this efficiency and trying to understand it better because it was the primary reason for purchasing it. I just didn't want to take a 'step back' in mileage in order to upgrade to a nicer car.

The Fusion is much heavier than the Focus. This means it requires more energy to move it. At a sustained speed, say 75 MPH, the Fusion is going to require more energy to overcome aerodynamic drag & rolling resistance. The Focus will likely get better MPG at these speeds because it is smaller & lighter. The main advantage of a hybrid is being able to turn off the ICE at low speeds. But if you are cranking up the heat then the ICE is unable to turn off because it needs to burn fuel to heat the coolant to heat the cabin. The Fusion ICE burns fuel at idle at a high gallons per hour than the Focus. As lolder has explained many times before, the FFH Atkinson cycle ICE is designed to run at almost WOT all the time. This is how it becomes more efficient. It's also more efficient because it can work to keep the ICE in a narrowing operating range by using electric power to assist when there is a high power demand and by using the electric motors to store energy in the battery when power demand is low. However, when you spend a lot of time idling or at high speeds the benefit is negated.

 

 

Given your prime objective, you probably should have gone with the Focus hybrid or Cmax or PIP.

 

The situation IS what it IS. Continuing to fret over it accomplishes nothing good.

What's a Focus Hybrid? How would the C-Max Hybrid perform any differently from the Fusion in this scenario?

[Easy Rider]

 

What's a Focus Hybrid? How would the C-Max Hybrid perform any differently from the Fusion in this scenario?

Guess my brain was asleep.

 

There isn't a Focus Hybrid ?? OK, substitute Prius. My wife's C gets great mileage and rides better than you would think.

 

And the C-Max is not a plug-in model ??

Guess not.

[Texasota]

And this is the issue. The window sticker MPG is not based on how you drive. It's based on the EPA test cycles. On the EPA test cycles the Fusion will use less fuel than the Focus. On your driving pattern the Fusion uses more gas than the Focus.

 

Idling is why you're getting such low MPG out of the Fusion. Stop idling the car and your MPG will be way better than the Focus.

I replaced my 2012 Ford Focus with a 2015 FFH. My experience, so far, indicates that HB is correct.

 

I now have about 8000 miles on my FFH and the lifetime (hand calculated) MPG is 44.8 MPG. There is no way the average for my Focus ever came close to that and I drove the Focus as economically as I could (including limiting highway speed to 63 MPH). My Focus on a few rare occasions approached 44.8 MPG on the highway and the city driving for the Focus was far short of 44.8 MPG. The FFH blows it away in MPG, comfort, quietness and enjoyment.

[CCalvinN]

Relax, and stop comparing apples and oranges. Fuel economy is best observed over the long haul. Let it warm up and see what that does to your average. If, over a period that includes an equal amount of warmer weather, your average meets or exceeds your expectations, will your cold weather performance even matter?

I’m trying to compare apples to apples. I’m comparing how and where I drive between two cars. Same/similar weather. Same/similar route. Same/similar amount of idling. Under EPA conditions my current car gets better mileage. Under my conditions it doesn’t.

 

At first, I was only trying to share my disappointment. Maybe get a ‘Hey it will get better’ comment or two. Instead I got information on how to get better mileage. That has since driven my curiosity and I’m simply trying to find out where that difference is coming from.

 

I’m not agitated… I’m just curious.

 

Several of us have been trying to say this nicely already so maybe some different wording is needed.

 

Your expectations are unrealistic. Simple as that.

 

A bigger car will almost NEVER get better mileage than a smaller and lighter "economy" model.

The bigger car weighs more and (probably) has a significantly higher aero drag. Because of that, it likely has a bigger power plant.

 

Given your prime objective, you probably should have gone with the Focus hybrid or Cmax or PIP.

 

The situation IS what it IS. Continuing to fret over it accomplishes nothing good.

How exactly are my expectations unrealistic? The starting point of my expectations was the EPA sticker. FFH = more efficient than Focus. Just as I didn't get anywhere near the EPA numbers in the Focus during winter driving, I didn't expect to get near the EPA numbers in the FFH. I didn't even expect to get better than the Focus… I just was hoping that it would be equal.

 

A bigger car gets worse gas mileage than a smaller car. By that logic are you saying that I won’t get better than 37-40 mpg in the FFH even in the summer? That would be a first for me as I've exceeded the EPA numbers in all the cars that I've owned (at least the ones where I tracked fuel mileage).

 

I’d argue that continuing to fret over this should do me a lot of good. If I can figure out what exactly is making up this difference, I can then minimize that action and maximize any action that increases my fuel mileage.

 

And this is the issue. The window sticker MPG is not based on how you drive. It's based on the EPA test cycles. On the EPA test cycles the Fusion will use less fuel than the Focus. On your driving pattern the Fusion uses more gas than the Focus.

 

Idling is why you're getting such low MPG out of the Fusion. Stop idling the car and your MPG will be way better than the Focus.

 

The Fusion is much heavier than the Focus. This means it requires more energy to move it. At a sustained speed, say 75 MPH, the Fusion is going to require more energy to overcome aerodynamic drag & rolling resistance. The Focus will likely get better MPG at these speeds because it is smaller & lighter. The main advantage of a hybrid is being able to turn off the ICE at low speeds. But if you are cranking up the heat then the ICE is unable to turn off because it needs to burn fuel to heat the coolant to heat the cabin. The Fusion ICE burns fuel at idle at a high gallons per hour than the Focus. As lolder has explained many times before, the FFH Atkinson cycle ICE is designed to run at almost WOT all the time. This is how it becomes more efficient. It's also more efficient because it can work to keep the ICE in a narrowing operating range by using electric power to assist when there is a high power demand and by using the electric motors to store energy in the battery when power demand is low. However, when you spend a lot of time idling or at high speeds the benefit is negated.

 

 

What's a Focus Hybrid? How would the C-Max Hybrid perform any differently from the Fusion in this scenario?

I’m trying to figure out what between the EPAs test cycle and my driving is making this difference. Is it that the cold affects a hybrid more than it affects a non-hybrid? Is it that idling affects a hybrid more than it affects a non-hybrid?

 

‘Stop idling the car and your MPG will be way better than the Focus’. I acknowledge that. The MPG would also improve in the Focus if I hadn't idled… but I DID idle the Focus. I started it up before many trips and idled it during those lunches. As I said above, I’m trying to compare apples to apples.

 

 

 

I’ve read through this entire thread again, and it seems that I’m back full circle. I had understood the difference to be in the idling (back in post 18). After I gave myself a pat on the back for understanding that though I was ‘corrected’ for misunderstanding it. So I’m going to go back to what I said back in post 18:

 

…

Being here has allowed me two things.

 

1) The information as to why the fuel mileage is so low (remote start, idling, both of which burn far more fuel than a 'normal' car does while doing the same thing)

 

2) Seeing real people with real fuel mileages and the fact that they can average well above 40 mpg and are getting in the 30s in the winter. That alone gives me a lot of hope that I'll get far better fuel mileage as the mercury continues to rise.

…

[hybridbear]

Guess my brain was asleep.

 

There isn't a Focus Hybrid ?? OK, substitute Prius. My wife's C gets great mileage and rides better than you would think.

 

And the C-Max is not a plug-in model ??

Guess not.

Ford makes the Focus Electric and C-Max Hybrid or Energi and Fusion Hybrid or Energi. A Focus Energi has been rumored but never made. Energi = PHEV. Electric = BEV.

 

I’m trying to figure out what between the EPAs test cycle and my driving is making this difference. Is it that the cold affects a hybrid more than it affects a non-hybrid? Is it that idling affects a hybrid more than it affects a non-hybrid?

 

‘Stop idling the car and your MPG will be way better than the Focus’. I acknowledge that. The MPG would also improve in the Focus if I hadn't idled… but I DID idle the Focus. I started it up before many trips and idled it during those lunches. As I said above, I’m trying to compare apples to apples.

 

I’ve read through this entire thread again, and it seems that I’m back full circle. I had understood the difference to be in the idling (back in post 18). After I gave myself a pat on the back for understanding that though I was ‘corrected’ for misunderstanding it. So I’m going to go back to what I said back in post 18:

Cold affects the hybrid mode since cold prevents the ICE from turning off which is the advantage of the hybrid. The Fusion will require more energy than the Focus to move in almost every scenario (if not every scenario). If you're just measuring fuel used during idle, the Fusion should burn more grams per hour of gasoline than the Focus.

 

When you sit and idle is the ICE on or off? If you have MFT you can pull up the "Power Flow" screen to see what is happening. Any time spent not moving with the ICE on will significantly lower MPG. While the Fusion will charge the HVB while idling, there are always losses in converting energy from gasoline to mechanical energy to electrical energy to charge the HVB. That energy must then be converted from electrical energy back to mechanical energy later on. There are losses in those conversions. The best use of the ICE is to drive the wheels, charging the HVB when the ICE output is greater than the wheel power requirement and discharging the HVB when the wheel power demand is greater than what the ICE is providing.

[CCalvinN]

...

 

Cold affects the hybrid mode since cold prevents the ICE from turning off which is the advantage of the hybrid. The Fusion will require more energy than the Focus to move in almost every scenario (if not every scenario). If you're just measuring fuel used during idle, the Fusion should burn more grams per hour of gasoline than the Focus.

 

When you sit and idle is the ICE on or off? If you have MFT you can pull up the "Power Flow" screen to see what is happening. Any time spent not moving with the ICE on will significantly lower MPG. While the Fusion will charge the HVB while idling, there are always losses in converting energy from gasoline to mechanical energy to electrical energy to charge the HVB. That energy must then be converted from electrical energy back to mechanical energy later on. There are losses in those conversions. The best use of the ICE is to drive the wheels, charging the HVB when the ICE output is greater than the wheel power requirement and discharging the HVB when the wheel power demand is greater than what the ICE is providing.

It's a combination. With the remote start I'm obviously not monitoring it but I've approached the car and the ICE was off on several occasions. I assume once the engine is up to temp it cycles on and off as needed.

 

At first when I was idling it during my lunches it would do the same thing. Cycle on and off. Now (for the past week or so) I get it to the location and once the ICE turns off, I turn the climate control off as well so that the ICE stays off until I drive back to work.

 

Making sure I'm still on the same path though... it's not that the ICE running is burning fuel. The same thing was happening in the Focus without the ICE occasionally turning off. The bigger difference is that the ICE in the FFH is burning MORE fuel while idling than the Focus does. Right?

[acdii]

 

 

the ICE in the FFH is burning MORE fuel while idling than the Focus does.

Yes. In the Focus the ICE is driving the water pump, alternator, and in summer, if air is on, AC compressor. In the Fusion, the ICE is driving the generator at all times, which puts a load on the ICE unlike that of the alternator and water pump, but close to what the AC can do. Once the HVB is fully charged, that load is lessened quite a bit, but there is still some what of a load on it. IIRC since the ICE has no throttle plate, RPM's are governed through the use of the MG attached to it, and fuel flow.

 

The Idle in the Focus is about 700-900 RPM, in the Fusion it can be twice that. From my observations, it is a thirsty devil when remote start is used, I calculated at least a gallon or more was used over a week's time, which was 50 minutes or less of idle time.

 

Recalculate your tank, remove a gallon from it and see what you get.

[Automate]

Diesel engines don't have a throttle but Atkinson cycles engines (what's in the FFH) do still have a throttle. The Atkinson throttle will just be much more open at idle than a conventional engine.

[lolder]

The whole strategy behind a gas-electric hybrid is never to run the ICE unless you can load it up to an efficient operating point. When the car is in motion at low speeds which requires too little power, the ICE, when on, also powers the generator which is very large, about 80 hp I think. When the HVB is charged, the ICE shuts off and EV is used until the HVB gets low again and the cycle repeats. At higher speeds there is enough power demand to run the ICE continually efficiently. There is more loss in the cycling mode at low speed but it's still more efficient than running the ICE continually at an inefficient point. The Atkinson ICEs are run at the lowest RPM and almost full throttle plate opening that provides the power commanded by your foot. They are operated just shy of "bucking" that occurred with manual transmission cars in too high a gear. They are about as efficient with fuel BTUs as diesels. They rarely run burning less than a 1/2 to 1 gallon an hour at "idle". A standard ICE of this size might burn 1/4 gph or less while idling. You get most of the energy back from the HVB but any sitting "idling" in a hybrid is a mpg killer. If you fill the HVB while idling and it continues to run for cabin heat, that's even worse.

Edited March 6, 2015 by lolder

[Waldo]

I’m trying to figure out what between the EPAs test cycle and my driving is making this difference. Is it that the cold affects a hybrid more than it affects a non-hybrid?

 

For all the typing in this thread, I think the answer is simply "Yes" to this question.

[acdii]

 

For all the typing in this thread, I think the answer is simply "Yes" to this question.

Good answer, got me ROFL.

 

BTW that prior one, was perfect.

[Easy Rider]

I

A bigger car gets worse gas mileage than a smaller car. By that logic are you saying that I won’t get better than 37-40 mpg in the FFH even in the summer?

 

 

That, of course, isn't a hard and fast rule but is generally true.

 

37-40 is about the best I can do with my FFH (calculated, not from the dash display).

With my Prius C, it is more like 47-53......but I don't really like it on the highway much.

 

If you think worrying about stuff like this makes you happy.............I hope you are right but most of the evidence says otherwise.

 

I think you got the best answers available back about post 8 of this thread.

Until you have a good opportunity to try out those suggestions (stop wasting gas when the car isn't moving), further wild speculation just isn't productive.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Easy Rider

[lolder]

I believe the EPA tests are run at 60-70º F. Assuming that Ford did them at 70 which is most advantageous, if you're driving around in the Great Lakes at 20, you can expect 10 mpg less due to temperature alone not to mention headwinds. Due to vector analysis 70% of all winds are headwinds.