C-Max deception: A gross violation of customers' trust

[hybridbear]

Article referenced in the Autoblog Green piece. A worthwhile read. I'm very disappointed in Ford.

 

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130819/OEM11/308199947/c-max-deception-a-gross-violation-of-customers-trust#axzz2cQBlH6Oa

 

[acdii]

From what I have been through with Ford, if they drive the car a certain way and they are able to meet a certain MPG range, then there is nothing wrong with the car. Based on that knowledge, I am not at all surprised that Ford went ahead and did this. I wouldn't put it past Ford to have internal written instructions on how to drive these cars to get within the acceptable range and sent to all the service managers on how to handle MPG complaints.

 

I still feel Ford Gamed the system to achieve the 47 claims, even after the update. I only say this based on the 2010 FFH that easily met and exceeded EPA, and the other Hybrids I had that also did the same. I cant drive the 13 FFH the same way and get the same results, it takes more work and diligence to get what I am getting in it. I am quite pleased with this car, but still feel that the 47 MPG is a bit too high to be realistic, I feel this really should have been rated at what either the Cmax is at now, or the MKZh.

 

As we can see by peoples average results here, Highway of 40 is about on par and overall average of 43 is also on par. There are way too many variables in daily driving that impact real world fuel economy, and the new Fusion is no doubt highly impacted by them. Hills, temps, weather, and high speeds all have a noticeable impact. I see at least a 3 MPG drop if I use AC in the morning, then when I drive with the windows open. I normally see around 48 MPG, this morning I left the AC on ad got 45 instead. In the heat of the day though, it is closer to an 8 MPG drop. I took the same trip to go shopping by my office that I normally do, but in the middle of the day with 85*+ and AC on I saw only 40 MPG. In the 2010 it never had that big of a difference and i usually ran with AC on all summer, and still got at least 40 MPG in it.

 

 

So yeah, I too am disappointed in Ford. Still love the Fusion though and would not want any other car.

[hybridbear]

From what I have been through with Ford, if they drive the car a certain way and they are able to meet a certain MPG range, then there is nothing wrong with the car. Based on that knowledge, I am not at all surprised that Ford went ahead and did this. I wouldn't put it past Ford to have internal written instructions on how to drive these cars to get within the acceptable range and sent to all the service managers on how to handle MPG complaints.

 

I still feel Ford Gamed the system to achieve the 47 claims, even after the update. I only say this based on the 2010 FFH that easily met and exceeded EPA, and the other Hybrids I had that also did the same. I cant drive the 13 FFH the same way and get the same results, it takes more work and diligence to get what I am getting in it. I am quite pleased with this car, but still feel that the 47 MPG is a bit too high to be realistic, I feel this really should have been rated at what either the Cmax is at now, or the MKZh.

 

As we can see by peoples average results here, Highway of 40 is about on par and overall average of 43 is also on par. There are way too many variables in daily driving that impact real world fuel economy, and the new Fusion is no doubt highly impacted by them. Hills, temps, weather, and high speeds all have a noticeable impact. I see at least a 3 MPG drop if I use AC in the morning, then when I drive with the windows open. I normally see around 48 MPG, this morning I left the AC on ad got 45 instead. In the heat of the day though, it is closer to an 8 MPG drop. I took the same trip to go shopping by my office that I normally do, but in the middle of the day with 85*+ and AC on I saw only 40 MPG. In the 2010 it never had that big of a difference and i usually ran with AC on all summer, and still got at least 40 MPG in it.

 

 

So yeah, I too am disappointed in Ford. Still love the Fusion though and would not want any other car.

You're likely right about instructions sent out of how to get "acceptable" gas mileage for dealers responding to consumer complaints about the C-Max. But you can't really say that the FFH should be rated at what the MKZh gets or the C-Max because Ford did actually test the FFH and got 47/47/47 and the EPA retested the FFH and confirmed that 47/47/47 is correct for the FFH. Some of the different articles and EPA statements have indicated that they didn't find anything wrong with the FFH EPA numbers.

 

You can't really compare your 2010 and 2013 that much because they're completely different powertrains. Even if your driving is the same, each car is optimized differently. It seems like the 2010 was pretty optimized to your style of commute and that the 2013 isn't. We can consistently get 55+ on certain routes that we go a lot. That's almost 20% better than the EPA rating. If I drove our old Honda Accord Hybrid the same routes I drive the FFH now I know that the fuel economy would NOT be 20% above the EPA estimates. It would more likely be 20% because we found that car to do very poorly in the city but it easily beat its EPA highway number since it could shut down 3 cylinders when not needed. That shows that Honda engineered that car to do best in a different area compared to how Ford designed the new Fusions.

[lolder]

I have about 60 K miles on my 2010 FFH which I have been very pleased with. It's lifetime mpg in S. FL is 41. It has luxury fittings that would cost about $35 K in the 2013. I would probably get just a few more mpg out of a new one so I'm getting new tires and forging on with this one.

It is hard to drive a Prius and NOT get EPA numbers. Ford needs to understand their competition better. The Ford's are nicer cars but competing with Toyota on mpg was a mistake.

[hybridbear]

It is hard to drive a Prius and NOT get EPA numbers. Ford needs to understand their competition better. The Ford's are nicer cars but competing with Toyota on mpg was a mistake.

Exactly!! I think you hit the nail on the head as far as the main issue here. Ford made a big mistake trying to compete with Toyota on mileage. They should have focused their ad campaign on how much nicer the C-Max is than the Prius V rather than claiming it would get better gas mileage.

[acdii]

 

It is hard to drive a Prius and NOT get EPA numbers. Ford needs to understand their competition better. The Ford's are nicer cars but competing with Toyota on mpg was a mistake.

Go one step further, the Camry Hybrid is the same. Compared to a Fusion, right off the dealers lot in cold weather it is easy to hit EPA, where same roads, same temp in the new Fusion you cannot. I accept that mine is only going to be a 43 MPG car, and not a 47 MPG one, mainly due to the roads I travel, but in comparison, had I gone with a Camry or Avalon instead, I know that I would be getting EPA in my same travels.

 

This is where Ford failed in their advertising. I think they tried too hard to achieve their 47 rating and didn't consider the high variability in driving styles and road conditions, where I do believe Toyota has factored all that in when designing the car. The Fusion is much more complex in how it needs to be driven to achieve the high numbers, where any other Hybrid, if driven normally still does very well.

 

Example, no other Hybrid relies so heavily on braking as the Fusion/Cmax does. No other Hybrid uses EV above 45 MPH. Those two factors there require a total change in driving habits, which most drivers just cant grasp the concept of and then complain about bad MPG numbers.

 

I also know for a fact that the dash gauge is very optimistic in the Fords, but very close to actual in the Toyota's. I have yet had one tank match the dash at the first click, the actual fill is always higher by at least a 1/2 gallon if not more.

 

Still, 43 is much better than 35! :)

[hybridbear]

Go one step further, the Camry Hybrid is the same. Compared to a Fusion, right off the dealers lot in cold weather it is easy to hit EPA, where same roads, same temp in the new Fusion you cannot. I accept that mine is only going to be a 43 MPG car, and not a 47 MPG one, mainly due to the roads I travel, but in comparison, had I gone with a Camry or Avalon instead, I know that I would be getting EPA in my same travels.

 

This is where Ford failed in their advertising. I think they tried too hard to achieve their 47 rating and didn't consider the high variability in driving styles and road conditions, where I do believe Toyota has factored all that in when designing the car. The Fusion is much more complex in how it needs to be driven to achieve the high numbers, where any other Hybrid, if driven normally still does very well.

 

Example, no other Hybrid relies so heavily on braking as the Fusion/Cmax does. No other Hybrid uses EV above 45 MPH. Those two factors there require a total change in driving habits, which most drivers just cant grasp the concept of and then complain about bad MPG numbers.

 

I also know for a fact that the dash gauge is very optimistic in the Fords, but very close to actual in the Toyota's. I have yet had one tank match the dash at the first click, the actual fill is always higher by at least a 1/2 gallon if not more.

 

Still, 43 is much better than 35! :)

You're right! The FFH is much nicer than the TCH. Has Ford done any advertising comparing the FFH to the TCH? I haven't seen any. Conversely the C-Max advertising has been almost all comparisons to the Prius. Maybe Toyota will come out with some ads now comparing to the C-Max and its new lower MPG ratings highlighting areas in which the Prius is superior.

[acdii]

You're right! The FFH is much nicer than the TCH. Has Ford done any advertising comparing the FFH to the TCH? I haven't seen any. Conversely the C-Max advertising has been almost all comparisons to the Prius. Maybe Toyota will come out with some ads now comparing to the C-Max and its new lower MPG ratings highlighting areas in which the Prius is superior.

Good point. Toyota is now advertising all these "unique" safety features, that are already on the new Fusion, all of them. What does Ford do? Advertise, about some cops serving food. Too late now for Ford to advertise its safety features. Ford had a Great opening when VW advertised the crash worthiness by getting smacked while backing out of a driveway. Ford could have run a similar commercial where the crash is AVOIDED by the cross traffic alert.

 

Ford is now advertising the 2014 Fusion with the Prius V as the target. They should go after the Camry and Avalon instead.

 

Ford you need a new marketing department, your commercials, though sometimes funny, aren't selling the car, a feature or two wont cut it. Advertise what YOU as a whole have to offer a consumer.

[gemdc]

It seems Ford is trying pretty hard to fix things based on the number of TSBs and recalls we have been getting. One area that has been ignored are the early FFHs like mine (10/31/12) and acdii's (and others) that struggle to get 40 mpg on any tank. The newer builds seem to get 43 with ease while I really have to mind things to get over 39. There has to be a reason. I expect bringing up the older versions up to current specs is too expensive for Ford. I like the theory that the HV battery pack is somehow deficient. The PCM update may have added 1 to 2 mpg to my FFH. I would think that my ICE is running the same map as the newer builds so that indicates the HV battery. Does anyone know whether the dealerships have a test for the HV batteries that would rate the performance to some "normal" profile?

[acdii]

Fixing what is out there is a good thing, but they also wont get new customers based on them. Since Ford, GM, and Chrysler all have this bad persona hanging over them with poor reliability, it is extremely difficult to get skeptical buyers to buy one. With some good marketing, focusing on other key items, ignoring the MPG(which is what is really getting Ford bashed on), and more towards key safety items, and where their actual dependability is ranked highest would most likely bring in new buyers. This is especially true for people with young kids. When they have younguns in car seats, having enough room, and being safe, while not having that dreaded SUV or Minivan, is a big item.

 

The Cmax and Fusion now has enough room in the back seat for two car seats and an adult at the same time, something previous generation Fusions lacked, and Prius also lacks. The Cmax has just a bit more back seat room than the Fusion.

 

We have a car that seats 5 comfortably, has safety features that protect them with Stability control, Blind Spot monitoring, Automatic High beam headlights, rain sensing wipers, Lane keeping assistance, Collision avoidance, and Adaptive cruise control to keep pace with traffic. We even protect you when backing out of a blind parking space in the even a person or car is approaching and alerts you to its presence. All this and good gas mileage too.

 

See That is how you advertise the car, focus on all its features.

 

Dont be this guy (VW backing out of a driveway and getting hit), the Fusion will alert you to the approaching traffic and you can avoid this!

[B25Nut]

 

It seems Ford is trying pretty hard to fix things based on the number of TSBs and recalls we have been getting. One area that has been ignored are the early FFHs like mine (10/31/12) and acdii's (and others) that struggle to get 40 mpg on any tank. The newer builds seem to get 43 with ease while I really have to mind things to get over 39. There has to be a reason. I expect bringing up the older versions up to current specs is too expensive for Ford. I like the theory that the HV battery pack is somehow deficient. The PCM update may have added 1 to 2 mpg to my FFH. I would think that my ICE is running the same map as the newer builds so that indicates the HV battery. Does anyone know whether the dealerships have a test for the HV batteries that would rate the performance to some "normal" profile?

Mine was built 10-24-12 and before the update I never saw a tank above 39 mpg. I am now getting 44+ mpg. I don't think your update was done correctly. Do you get significant EV time at speeds above 65 mph?

[fusionTX]

And the bad press is catching up to Ford. C-Max sales continue dropping, and I wouldn't doubt if Fusions are affected too.

 

http://www.hybridcars.com/september-2013-dashboard/

[Toz]

And the bad press is catching up to Ford. C-Max sales continue dropping, and I wouldn't doubt if Fusions are affected too.

 

http://www.hybridcars.com/september-2013-dashboard/

did you link to the wrong article? This one said that the sales were UP for the C-max and Fusion. (or have I had too many beers?) "In contrast, Ford C-Max Energi and Fusion Energi (plug in hybrids) both had best-ever months."

Edited October 11, 2013 by Toz

[fusionTX]

did you link to the wrong article? This one said that the sales were UP for the C-max and Fusion. (or have I had too many beers?) "In contrast, Ford C-Max Energi and Fusion Energi (plug in hybrids) both had best-ever months."

C-Max hybrid only sold 1424 units in Sept, down over 40 percent from previous month.

[B25Nut]

All hybrid sales, including Toyota's, were down around 40% compared to August. This is more a sign of the economy.

[Ted Swing]

Also, other articles have pointed out that part of Labor Day weekend fell in August this year, which took a bite out of the September sales. I wouldn't read too much into it until it's repeated.

[fusionTX]

Here is another way to look at it. Percentage of hybrid sales per month. Fusion Hybrid is pretty steady. Not so the C-Max Hybrid.

 

C-Max Fusion hybrid

March. 7.07. 7.38

April. 7.47 8.47

May. 6.68. 6.83

June. 6.43 6.8

July. 4.98. 6.41

Aug. 4.55. 6.97

Sep. 4.24. 6.75

[hybridbear]

Here is another way to look at it. Percentage of hybrid sales per month. Fusion Hybrid is pretty steady. Not so the C-Max Hybrid.

 

C-Max Fusion hybrid

March. 7.07. 7.38

April. 7.47 8.47

May. 6.68. 6.83

June. 6.43 6.8

July. 4.98. 6.41

Aug. 4.55. 6.97

Sep. 4.24. 6.75

Tex, thanks for breaking out these numbers. Volume numbers are only one part of the story. For looking at how the C-Max/Fusion are doing compared to their hybrid brethren then the % of all hybrid sales is a great metric. This shows that the C-Max sales are definitely down significantly in the last few months compared to the overall hybrid market. The timing coincides with the MPG scandal announcement and should be very concerning to Ford.

[B25Nut]

Ford has just announced they are cutting back on the production of the C-Max.

 

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1087890_ford-focus-ford-c-max-hybrid-is-now-the-best-time-to-buy

[acdii]

Thats interesting since the plant also produces the Focus, which I thought was selling OK.

[hybridbear]

I fear that the C-Max nameplate is forever tarnished now because of this.

 

At one point the Ford spokesman says that Ford remains committed to the C-Max, I hope that he's telling the truth.

 

http://www.autonews.com/article/20140428/RETAIL01/304289976/ford-tries-to-revive-c-max-hybrid-sales

[Ted Swing]

Most of the taxis in the Phoenix metro area are Priuses. I just saw one taxi company today that's apparently using C-Maxes, though. Could be good news if they can get into that niche.

[hybridbear]

Most of the taxis in the Phoenix metro area are Priuses. I just saw one taxi company today that's apparently using C-Maxes, though. Could be good news if they can get into that niche.

There was a guy who posted on the C-Max Hybrid Forum saying that he was operating a fleet of C-Max taxis in Phoenix. He said that the drivers & passengers liked them. He later posted that one had the eCVT fail after only around 15,000 miles IIRC and he said that he was concerned about reliability for the rest of the fleet. As far as I know he hasn't posted anything in almost a year.

[Ted Swing]

Could be the same guy/same fleet, then. If so, then obviously they're still around. It does seem like a good car for a taxi.