Hybrids and the Environment

[B25Nut]

We've discussed here before "Why choose the Hybrid" and concluded it makes economic sense, along with making most of us happier people. We haven't had much talk, however, about the environmental reasons to buy a hybrid. I realize this subject can get political and I hope we can keep from going there. The forums administrator may not even allow it, but I think it is a subject that needs clarification.

Most of the experts on this forum are previous hybrid owners. Sales statistics, however, indicate that most of you reading this, like me, are or soon will be, first time hybrid buyers. Most Americans seem to have a definite stigma against hybrids, which is reinforced by statements on the Internet and talk radio that hybrids have a net negative effect on the environment. This is usually based on the making and disposing of the hybrid's batteries. Two items I read yesterday should help counter this argument: 1) the standard 12v batteries in cars are the world's most recycled product and 2) Honda has established a plant to recycle the elements used in our hybrid's batteries.

This stigma was reinforced for me in November when I told a friend that I had just purchased the Green Car of the Year. The look she gave me was like I had told her I voted for the President. This attitude is almost universal among the people I associate with. The good news is that, after four months, some of them are realizing the benefits a hybrid like the FFH has. The Fusion's good looks are what break the initial barrier.

The fact that hybrids use less gas can only be considered a good thing, no matter what side of the climate fence you are on. It is established that the FFHs extra cost is balanced out by this. But should the FFHs environmental impact be a major purchasing consideration? Personally, I don't think by owning a Fusion Hybrid that I'll be helping "Save the Planet", but it won't hurt. I feel such slogans are over the top, but are probably necessary to initiate changes in attitude.

A few facts about Global Warming need to be stated to keep things in perspective. The mean temperature in the US has increased by 1.5 degrees F from 1895 to 2012, so nobody should be saying warming doesn't exist. The graph below from the NOAA site today shows the temperatures in January during this period. The trend doesn't look as scary as many make it out to be, does it? Most environmentalist blame the gain on the increased CO2 created by humans. If you had a jar filled with 10,000 pennies that depict all the gases in our current atmosphere, CO2 would be represented by four pennies, one of which is the increase over the past 120 years. The human population has increased from 1.5 billion to 7 billion during this time, during which we've laid down a lot of concrete and asphalt, which has more than a minor impact on temperatures at ground level. I'm not a scientist, but I feel the reason for the temperature increase can be evenly divided between this, greenhouse gases and natural cycles.

If everyone bought a hybrid, would our future look brighter? Yes it would, so the environment should be a factor when purchasing a FFH. I just don't like the use of exaggerations and partial truths when experts try to initiate change.

March 11 - I just added the February temperatures for 1895-2013. This is also an interesting article:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/08/world/world-climate-change/index.html

Edited March 12, 2013 by B25Nut

[ny2oc1996]

Wow, you opened up a topic everybody has an opinion about but nobody wants to start the conversation as it is such a hot button topic. With that being said, I’ll start with what drives my thinking because it is all related to the Ford Fusion.

 

My son did a college paper on global warming while in USC. He first demonstrated that global warming does in fact exist. However global warming does not follow man’s use of fossil fuels. In fact, it precedes it. In the end man can be charged as a contributor but is not the primary cause. It was a fascinating read but what stuck in my mind was the evidence that the polar ice cap on Mars is shrinking at an alarming rate. Wait a minute, there’s no man related fossil fuel activity up there.

 

In fairness, I remember Ed McMahon saying that in the seventies, driving into work every day he would see a large brown haze hanging over Los Angeles which is a rare event today. So auto emissions control is a good thing even though we can debate how well this is implemented.

 

But the good news is that no one has to be anointed an environmentalist to go hybrid. Just do the math. Here are the facts in my case. My wife will keep a car 10+ years. So let’s say for the next ten years the price of gas averages $5.00 per gallon (that number will likely be higher).

 

The wife’s Mustang consistently averages 15 mpg. She drives 12,000 miles per year. That means she uses 800 gallons of fuel at a cost of $4,000.00 per year (at $5.00 per gallon).

 

Let’s say the replacement Fusion will average 34 mpg. Still driving 12,000 miles per year means that she uses 353 gallons of fuel at a cost of $1,765.00 per year (at $5.00 per gallon).

 

That’s an annual fuel savings of $2,235.00. If you times that by 10 it saves $22,350.00 in the 10 year cycle. Her current Mustang is 13.5 years old, so she could possibly keep this car 15 years. That would be a savings of $33,525.00. That’s the cost of a 2013 HyTi Fusion!!!!!!!

 

So when I read people are complaining about only getting 36-38mpg, tears come to my eyes because I am so envious of their mpg. In the end, there is no mid-size sedan in the world doing better than the 2013 Fusion Hybrid in mpg or in styling. And maybe you could throw in technology as well (as least in that price point).

 

We don't have to debate whether we’re saving the planet or putting the savings in our pockets. We’re doing both, so it’s a win-win.

[lolder]

Read this: http://news.yahoo.com/skeptic-finds-now-agrees-global-warming-real-142616605.htmlhttp://news.yahoo.com/skeptic-finds-now-agrees-global-warming-real-142616605.html

and this: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/opinion/the-conversion-of-a-climate-change-skeptic.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

about Richard Muller. He is a scientist at the University of California, Berkeley and Lawrence Berkeley National Lab. His work has been partially funded previously by Koch Foundation grants. His groups research addresses the concrete and asphalt also.

If all passenger vehicles got Prius mileage , we would import no oil from the muddle east ( that was a typo but I'll leave it ).

[GrySql]

It was just plain math with me at first, as stated, looking to the future and what is best for my family's future.

The Fusion styling was the edge tipper, all that technology for a price I could afford, that looks darn good going down the road holding 5 people.

And, yes, all the sour comments on getting 35mpg makes me laugh because in the scheme of things, Ad's or EPA cycles notwithstanding, this car is amazing on many levels.

The bugs will get worked out and we'll all be the better for it.

Thanks Ford for helping me take that big step up.

[rjent]

Without getting into the politics of this issue, I got interested in hybrids when I drove one out to a customer of a friend of mine. (he has a quick lube) He needed someone to deliver the car and I volunteered. It was a Prius .... LOL. After I figured out how to "start" the damn thing LOL the car really captured my imagination. As I drove it both interstate, local roads and two lane highway and watched the milage hover just under 40 I was sold. The very same day, I saw a 2013 Fusion in town and did some research and found that a hybrid version was available as well.

 

I am buffering myself against 5 dollar gas, but the car itself, in any trim, hybrid or not, is just stunning. I have spent almost 60K on an expedition and almost 50K on a super crew PU, 30k or so on this is just a nice transportation. I am going to spend that anyway, why not get 40 to 50 mpg doing it.

 

Now that I have driven one (mine is due in in April) I am just that much more sold on what it is and what it can be.

 

Personally, I will be proud to drive one, not because it is green, but because it is Ford, it is comfortable, and it is very efficient. May be the wrong reasons, but their mine .... LOL.

[acdii]

For me the Hybrid has nothing to do with the environment. Just about all new cars these days have much cleaner emissions than previous cars. More damage has been done to the environment by contractors tearing out good rich soil for growing things that help keep the environment clean, to put up massive single family homes, which after the housing bust have been mainly empty buildings that are now being torn down, with roads leading to no where, and the land wont be restored to what it once was for thousands of years. Seeing that makes me angry and sad all at the same time.

 

The reason I have hybrids is to save money on gas, mainly due to the fact I put so many miles on every year, roughly around 40K a year, and getting the most MPG for me is very important. I have had some great cars, the Fusion Sport, Loved that car, but it used way too much gas, only averaged 21 MPG, and there was a period of time when gas was well over $4 a gallon that I had to steal from savings just to buy gas, hence the tradeout for the 2010 Fusion Hybrid. While not as much fun as the Sport, it nearly doubled the amount of MPG, which cut our gas bill in half. We also had a Flex Ecoboost, again, great vehicle, and one I wish I never got rid of, that one was traded in with my 99 F350 Dually Diesel on a 12 F150. After 8 months it was decided that the F150 was just not as practical to own as the Flex was, and that we really didnt need it(too late we discovered just how much we actually did use it), and I was "made an offer I couldnt refuse" on the F150 to move to the Fusion hybrid, that and due to the increases in our taxes both Real Estate, State and Fed taxes I needed to cut costs somewhere, and that was with the 13 Fusion. In addition to the lower monthly payment I was counting on getting at least 40 MPG on average in it, which hasnt happened, so I am still a bit shy on balancing out the increases with my budget(grumble).

 

However, it does give me twice the MPG as the F150 did so can't complain there. This is my fourth Hybrid, and one argument you always hear is how long it takes to recover the premium between the non hybrid vs the Hybrid, and I can tell you right now, that the two toyotas I traded up from both gave me back better than the non Hybrids, on resale the hybrid premium is still there, so you dont really lose anything, just gain a lot by the small amount of gas you use. Going from an F350 Diesel as a daily driver to a Prius my fuel savings were more than what I was paying for the Prius with insurance added in, so it was a free car for me, especially when I traded I got back more than I paid for it, which added up to what I actually spent in gas, Free car for a year.

 

So for me, it was all about the economy, not the environment, The greenness of the hybrid is washed out when you consider what it takes to make all the materials used to build the car.

[jeff_h]

If all passenger vehicles got Prius mileage , we would import no oil from the muddle east ( that was a typo but I'll leave it ).

 

That was partially my reasoning when I bought the Prius in 2005... I have always been a buy-American guy, but it was not possible in 2005 to get a hybrid with really good MPG that I could use for my long commute... don't say Escape Hybrid, got one of those for my wife two weeks after the Prius, didn't have high enough MPG. So my reasoning was well crap if I am gonna fork over my money overseas, I'd rather give the money to the Japanese than to the 'muddle east' as you noted.

 

So now I am a true red-white-and-blue buy-American guy with my Mexican-built FFH and wife's Canadian-built Edge.... oy vey.

[GrySql]

So now I am a true red-white-and-blue buy-American guy with my Mexican-built FFH and wife's Canadian-built Edge.... oy vey

American cars all, North and Central American - we're saving them too.

 

Say Jeff, in your icon over there on the left, what's that lady doing with her foot on that guys neck?

[HenryVIII]

This is how I see it, gas-electric Hybrid vehicles are all about saving money on gas and less about the environment. One has to consider the environmental impact manufacturing the batteries in this car as well. That said, I believe that the FFH stands better for the environment over other gas-electric hybrids. If I'm not mistaken ford manufactures it's own batteries in-house. That alone will lower it environmental impact over Toyota Hybrid batteries as they are mined, manufactured and sold it different parts of the world.

[acdii]

Toyota still uses Nickel batteries, which still need to be mined, though with the recycling centers, soon first gen packs will be ready to be scrapped and they will be recycled into new packs. Ford uses Lion packs, not sure where the material comes from, they may use some nickel in them, but not sure the ratio compared to the NimH packs.

[jeff_h]

American cars all, North and Central American - we're saving them too.

 

Say Jeff, in your icon over there on the left, what's that lady doing with her foot on that guys neck?

 

That's the flag for the Commonwealth of Virginia, which has the motto "Sic Semper Tyrannis", which translates to "Thus Always to Tyrants" -- The Seal of the Commonwealth of Virginia shows Virtue, spear in hand, with her foot on the prostrate form of Tyranny, whose crown lies nearby.

[RedLdr1]

I do not believe there is significantly more enviromental impact in manufacturing a hybrid than any other car. I've seen / heard the "statements on the Internet and talk radio that hybrids have a net negative effect on the environment." as well but have never seen any hard data produced to back up the claims. The plants that manufacture the traction batteries are generally newer and "cleaner" than the old lead acid or gel battery plants. As far as "end of life" recycled traction batteries sell at a brisk pace on the secondary market and are much more likely to be recycled at a higher percentage than the 12VDC lead acid batteries almost all cars use. How many old 12VDC lead acid batteries have you seen lying around improperly stored or just tossed in to the trash?

 

I've now owned four hybrids, including the FFH and C-Max, and the primary "driving" ;) force for me is saving money...by using less gasoline. The C-Max has doubled the gas mileage of the Flex Limited it replaced and the FFH has doubled the gas mileage of the Taurus SHO it replaced. Both the C-Max and FFH are smaller versions of what I was driving, but they are just as suitable for our needs. By "downsizing" our vehicles I'm saving money on gas costs and reducing our enviromental footprint, by about 50%, as a secondary benefit....not a bad deal at all.... :hi5: