Daytime Running lights?

[Waldo]

Perhaps Waldo is planning to furnish the list to the appropriate person at Ford to send out reprimands and that's why he provided the warning.

 

I certainly wouldn't do that, I'm a huge supported of DRLs so I'd do anything to help get them turned on. I'm just saying that if we really believe that dealer's aren't doing it because they're being told not to by Ford corporate, then what would stop Ford corporate from phishing out the dealers that are doing it and calling them up to tell them to stop? How do we know that's not already why certain dealers aren't doing it? The end result would be even fewer dealers willing to do it.

[murphy]

When I asked my dealer to turn them on they contacted the hotline to find out how to do it and were told not to do it. The service manager told me he didn't have the "resources" to do it. This is a big dealer that has many separate locations that include most of the car brands. Not quite as bad as my previous dealer that sells Ford and Chrysler from the same location.

[GrySql]

I thought this was interesting:

 

 

[milleron]

It's fascinating, actually. Where did you find the diagram? I find the "Note:" to be cryptic, because it seems to be utterly false if I'm understanding it correctly, but it may be the specious source on which FoMoCo bases it's DRL dogma relating to DRLs in the '13 and '14 Fusions.

[GrySql]

It's fascinating, actually. Where did you find the diagram?

It's from the official 2013 FFH Ford Tech Manual, so it's real.

[milleron]

It's from the official 2013 FFH Ford Tech Manual, so it's real.

 

Things that make you go hmmm . . . . If it's right there in the Tech Manual, why are all these dealers calling corporate? Why aren't they just looking up "DRL" in the index of the Manual?

 

That "Note" makes it appear that FoMoCo might be spouting a line taken from a statement in their FFH Tech Manual which happens to be fallacious. It shows us more clearly where they're coming from, but I still wonder why they've stuck to this untenable position for so long. I don't think it can be explained on the basis of revenues or profits. Their policy doesn't seem to gain them a single thing other than the enmity of a few customers, like us, who have learned the truth. Considering the PR windfall they might reap from just telling their dealers how to enable the DRLs, the rationale for the whole thing remains inscrutable.

[Waldo]

That note has always been there as it is in several other Ford model shop manuals, however if you turn to the section on module programming (418-01), it lists DRL configuration as an available programming parameter, just like it does in just about every Ford shop manual.

[Waldo]

 

Things that make you go hmmm . . . . If it's right there in the Tech Manual, why are all these dealers calling corporate? Why aren't they just looking up "DRL" in the index of the Manual?

 

That "Note" makes it appear that FoMoCo might be spouting a line taken from a statement in their FFH Tech Manual which happens to be fallacious. It shows us more clearly where they're coming from, but I still wonder why they've stuck to this untenable position for so long. I don't think it can be explained on the basis of revenues or profits. Their policy doesn't seem to gain them a single thing other than the enmity of a few customers, like us, who have learned the truth. Considering the PR windfall they might reap from just telling their dealers how to enable the DRLs, the rationale for the whole thing remains inscrutable.

 

I'm not a lawyer, but unless you are, then I don't think it's fair to assume that Ford doesn't gain anything by their "policy". Ford has to protect itself legally, they can't allow dealers to turn on things that might be illegal in some regions.

[milleron]

 

I'm not a lawyer, but unless you are, then I don't think it's fair to assume that Ford doesn't gain anything by their "policy". Ford has to protect itself legally, they can't allow dealers to turn on things that might be illegal in some regions.

 

I really hadn't considered a legal angle. My Internet research and threads on some other Blue Oval forums indicate that, while Canada and some states legally require DRLs (in the form of dedicated DRLs or headlights), there are no states where they are illegal, hence, the operability of DRLs on Fusions in fleet -- i.e., rental -- sales. The NHTSA once had a rule on the maximum intensity of DRLs, but that was rescinded about a decade ago. (Perhaps that was done in order to make it legal to use headlamps as DRLs, but I don't know the reason.) There are no limitations on DRLs at the national level.

So my questions to you would be as follows: since GM and many imports install DRLs on all their vehicles, how could Ford get into legal trouble for enabling them, especially when they operate at reduced voltages and, therefore, a reduced intensity? How could there be a legal problem for Ford when the Fusions they sell to Hertz, Avis, et al have DRLs? (And, no, I don't think those questions necessarily require a JD degree to answer.)

[Waldo]

It's not that DRLs in general are illegal, it's that there are multiple versions of DRLs that could be enabled on a Fusion and not all of them may be legal. For example the Escape has LED DRLs on the high end models that do come enabled in the US, but they do not meet the DRL requirements for Canada, so in Canada the Escape has both the LED and the foglights active as DRL. If someone in the US went to a Ford dealer and asked them to turn on the DRLs so they could move to Canada, the dealer wouldn't know that the LEDs don't meet Canada's requirements.

 

Bottom line is while DRLs are not illegal, there are some places that say if your going to have DRLs, they have to meet X and Y specifications. There are ways to enable DRLs on some Fords that do not meet X and Y specifications, therefore it could make them illegal.

[GrySql]

 

how could Ford get into legal trouble for enabling them, especially when they operate at reduced voltages and, therefore, a reduced intensity?

 

Going back and trying to fix blame, or even understand Ford's prior reasoning is going to be difficult.

As Waldo had pointed out, this issue was a little more complicated than it may look to us.

While no one can disagree that the 2013, 2014 Dealer's difficulties in turning on the DRL's appear illogical, there were reasons that made sense to someone at Ford.

 

Seems to me that there was a discussion at Ford, that probably contained some of the points you (milleron) have made, and Ford decided to allow consumers in the USA to turn the DRL's on or off, making it an owner's preference in the 2015 MY.

I applaud Ford for thinking this thru and to have corrected the problem for the new MY vehicles.

 

That being said, it still leaves the first 2013/2014 Fusions with an Easter egg hunt for a Dealer that will turn them on if the car's owner wants that feature.

Edited December 8, 2014 by GrySql
spelin..

[milleron]

Waldo, that was a thoughtful reply, & I thank you for that. However, I still find it implausible that the DRLs on fleet-sale Fusions, that are perfectly fine from a legal standpoint in any locale, are different from mine. "High-end Escapes" are simply not relevant to this discussion; that example doesn't apply to Fusions. Ford designed those fleet DRLs to be acceptable anywhere. How could Ford have any concerns that identical DRLs on my car would mysteriously be unacceptable? By the same token, unless there's evidence that the 2015 MY DRLs, which can be turned off and on at the whim of the owner, differ from ours, then it's very difficult to accept the possibility that FoMoCo stonewalled enabling of them on '13 & '14 FFHs for fear that it would violate any law or regulation.

I'm sorry that my musing about Ford's reasons for giving me such a hard time was offensive. Perhaps this forum was not an appropriate place for speculation.

[Waldo]

Waldo, that was a thoughtful reply, & I thank you for that. However, I still find it implausible that the DRLs on fleet-sale Fusions, that are perfectly fine from a legal standpoint in any locale, are different from mine. "High-end Escapes" are simply not relevant to this discussion; that example doesn't apply to Fusions. Ford designed those fleet DRLs to be acceptable anywhere. How could Ford have any concerns that identical DRLs on my car would mysteriously be unacceptable? By the same token, unless there's evidence that the 2015 MY DRLs, which can be turned off and on at the whim of the owner, differ from ours, then it's very difficult to accept the possibility that FoMoCo stonewalled enabling of them on '13 & '14 FFHs for fear that it would violate any law or regulation.

I'm sorry that my musing about Ford's reasons for giving me such a hard time was offensive. Perhaps this forum was not an appropriate place for speculation.

 

A big company like Ford doesn't make "policy's" based on one individual model, therefore the Escape example is completely relevant. You're still stuck thinking about the light bulbs, when the actual DRL function is part of the BCM module. It's the programming of this module where the problems can occur. When Ford turns on DRLs for fleet customers, they know exactly which parameters are configured and can store that in a big database. When a customer in a 2015 turns on DRLs through the cluster, Ford has control over how the parameters are configured. But allowing the dealer's the ability to program the parameters takes it out of Ford's control. The same BCMs are used across many different Ford models, so the BCM has parameters in it that may never be used on a particular model. Therefore it's possible that a dealer could inadvertently (or perhaps on purpose), enable parameters (and therefore create DRL configurations) that were never intended for public use.

 

Or to put it another way , it's not just as simple as turning DRLs on and off in the software anymore. There are likely ways that a dealer could turn on a DRL configuration that is not the same as the one used by the fleet cars.

[Easy Rider]

 

I'm not a lawyer, but unless you are, then I don't think it's fair to assume that Ford doesn't gain anything by their "policy". Ford has to protect itself legally, they can't allow dealers to turn on things that might be illegal in some regions.

Please tell us where.....in the US.....that DRLs are illegal. Not "might be" but ARE.

 

I believe that they are still legally required in Canada and it's been just about a year ago that the NTSB or NHTSA changed their status in the US from "required" to "not required". "Not required" is quite different than "not allowed".

 

And please tell us how that one parameter can work differently in a "fleet" vehicle.

 

I think your logic is flawed.......and your refusal to back down a bit is disconcerting.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Easy Rider

[Waldo]

Please tell us where.....in the US.....that DRLs are illegal. Not "might be" but ARE.

 

I believe that they are still legally required in Canada and it's been just about a year ago that the NTSB or NHTSA changed their status in the US from "required" to "not required". "Not required" is quite different than "not allowed".

 

And please tell us how that one parameter can work differently in a "fleet" vehicle.

 

I think your logic is flawed.......and your refusal to back down a bit is disconcerting.

 

I've already given the example of the Escape. I've also never once mentioned "in the US". I've also never once said that DRLs are illegal, only that to be legal, DRLs sometimes have to meet specific requirements, like the Escape example in Canada.

 

Here's another example. The 2013+ Taurus SHO comes with HID headlights and the little straight "accent" lights but not fog lights. Since you can't use HIDs as DRLs and the accent lights don't meet DRL requirments, the Taurus SHO that is sold in Canada has conventional headlights and is not available with HIDs. So if you take your US Taurus SHO to a dealer and ask for the DRLs to be turned on, they could turn on the HIDs as DRLs which would shorten their life, or they could turn on the accent lights which would not meet legal requirements if the car were to be sold in Canada, even though the buyer and importer might think they are.

 

The parameters are not simply a 0 for off and a 1 for on. The BCM parameter for DRL can be set to 0 (off), 1 (fog lights), 2, (PWM modulated headlights), 3 (accent lights), 4 (turn signals), 5 (a combination of 1 and 3 maybe) and so on (I don't know that those numbers and configs are true, just showing for an example). Even if the Fusion doesn't ever have all of those lights available, the parameters are still there in the BCM. When Ford activates DRLs at the factory, they know a Fusion with X and Y options needs to have the parameter set to 1 but a Fusion with options Y and Z needs to have the parameter set to 2. But a dealer does not know whether a car brought to them should be a 1 or a 2 or any other number. This is different than in the past, cars like my 07 Mariner did just have a simple 0 or 1 DRL setting and for those it was simple for the dealer to change. The DRL setting was essentially hard-wired into the BCM so that it could only turn on the correct DRL lights, But Ford realized that as the cars got more complicated with more lighting options, they had to build cars with different BCM part numbers when they had different DRL options. So they added the multiple parameter method and since then it's been much more difficult for dealers to activate DRLs.

 

My point here is not that I don't want people to have DRLs, it's just that there is logic behind Ford's position, even if you don't see it.

[hermans]

Although there are some states that require lights to be on during certain driving conditions (other than night-time driving) there are no states that have any laws banning DRLs. This is getting ridiculous.

[Waldo]

Although there are some states that require lights to be on during certain driving conditions (other than night-time driving) there are no states that have any laws banning DRLs. This is getting ridiculous.

 

Yes, because I"M NOT SAYING DRLs ARE ILLEGAL!!! However there are REQUIREMENTS for DRLs such as intensity and position on the vehicle and relative to other lights and it is possible to enable DRLs on some Ford models that would not meet those REQUIREMENTS which would make them ILLEGAL.

 

Here are the FMVSS requirements: If your DRLs don't meet these requirements, they are ILLEGAL in EVERY state.

 

S5.5.11(a) Any pair of lamps on the front of a passenger car, multipurpose passenger vehicle, truck, or bus, whether or not required by this standard, other than parking lamps or fog lamps, may be wired to be automatically activated, as determined by the manufacturer of the vehicle, in a steady burning state as daytime running lamps (DRLs) and to be automatically deactivated when the headlamp control is in any “on” position, and as otherwise determined by the manufacturer of the vehicle, provided that each such lamp:(1) Has a luminous intensity not less than 500 candela at test point H-V, nor more than 3,000 candela at any location in the beam, when tested in accordance with Section S11 of this standard, unless it is:(i) A lower beam headlamp intended to operate as a DRL at full voltage, or at a voltage lower than used to operate it as a lower beam headlamp; or(ii) An upper beam headlamp intended to operate as a DRL, whose luminous intensity at test point H-V is not more than 7,000 candela, and which is mounted not higher than 864 mm above the road surface as measured from the center of the lamp with the vehicle at curb weight;(2) Is permanently marked “DRL” on its lens in letters not less than 3 mm high, unless it is optically combined with a headlamp;(3) Is designed to provide the same color as the other lamp in the pair, and that is one of the following colors as defined in SAE Standard J578 MAY88: White, white to yellow, white to selective yellow, selective yellow, or yellow;(4) If not optically combined with a turn signal lamp, is located so that the distance from its lighted edge to the optical center of the nearest turn signal lamp is not less than 100 mm, unless:(i) The luminous intensity of the DRL is not more than 2,600 candela at any location in the beam and the turn signal meets the requirements of S5.3.1.7; or(ii) (For a passenger car, multipurpose passenger vehicle, truck, or bus that is manufactured before October 1, 1995, and which uses an upper beam headlamp as a DRL as specified in paragraph S5.5.11(a)(1)(ii)) the luminous intensity of the DRL is greater than 2,600 candela at any location in the beam and the turn signal lamp meets the requirements of S5.3.1.7; or(iii) The DRL is optically combined with a lower beam headlamp and the turn signal lamp meets the requirements of S5.3.1.7; or(iv) The DRL is deactivated when the turn signal or hazard warning signal lamp is activated.(5) If optically combined with a turn signal lamp, is automatically deactivated as a DRL when the turn signal lamp or hazard warning lamp is activated, and automatically reactivated as a DRL when the turn signal lamp or hazard warning lamp is deactivated.(b) Any pair of lamps that are not required by this standard and are not optically combined with any lamps that are required by this standard, and which are used as DRLs to fulfill the specifications of S5.5.11(a), shall be mounted at the same height, which shall be not more than 1.067 m above the road surface measured from the center of the lamp on the vehicle at curb weight, and shall be symmetrically disposed about the vertical centerline of the vehicle.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Waldo

[hybridbear]

Waldo - thank you for your excellent descriptions of how complicated DRLs are now compared to previously. I don't think that very many of us would have realized that without your examples.

[Sleddog]

Long thread and a quick comment. Maybe not quick...

 

While Waldo may be correct, the BCM or other modules probably have a configuration matrix stored in the module(s). I base this on years of doing process control. All the modules "talk". The same is true for Programmable Logic Controller used in process automation. I can take a new module for a PLC install it in the rack and the main processor will download the correct configuration it to or I can do that manually.

 

If I don't have a copy of the programming, I can upload it from the main processor. In the case of the a BCM, I'm sure they are married to the main processor and that involves a bit of programming at the dealership if they have to replace it, Or once the module is installed, the main process does it automatically, telling it what it needs to know.

 

And it is all 1's and 0's. The comm bus in these cars communicate with just every electrical piece part. Some module has to be the gate keeper of the info. Also, the programming software gives a set of selections available according to the configuration of the system. It also depends on the level of software revision in the programming tool. Example, I have AB RSLogix 5000 programs that requires Designer 5000 because of a revision level great than 21. That means a computer with Windows 7. I can't even open it in RSLogix 5000 on an XP machines. If the revisions don't match, therefore the programming is not available.

 

Case in point, the MoMos at one Ford dealer could not turn on my DRLs, they said it was not possible because of the way my car was configured. The dealer that did turn 'em on, did it in less than 5 minutes. I speculate the first dealer had an old version of the interface program, the other dealer had the current revision.

 

As for the 1s and 0s. That coding is all background. What is seen by the Tech is a graphical interface, an HMI. It's not 1s and 0s, but dialog that's readable by a human that does not have access to, or the ability to, read the code.

 

Which is easer to read:

(pop P*#7, =A_FindLeastTime, P1*2*3*, T_H_M_S, call low) or a sentence that says "Select a Pump - 1 2 3, Select lowest time - Hours Minutes Seconds.

 

The goop that you can not read, I can. But I'm a programmer. I can also change the programming to give you the selections that are specific to the system. A system may have only 2 pumps and the time reference need may only be minutes. But I can leave the rest of the code so it can be used across all systems.

 

As an example, I can access many different VFD parameters. But the drive will only allow me to command or monitor what's available in the drive. All parameters for all AB PowerFlex 755 builds are there, but if the drive is not built with those options, they are grayed out in the interface software. The drive is smart enough to know which option modules, IGBTS, and voltage converters are installed.

 

It's all a matter of parameters, were they are stored, and how they can be accessed. The HMI is built to be intuitive for the user. Allowing them to access only what is available. I program much more then a plant operator sees. Could I give them access to all the possible settings, sure, but they only need to control what is configured in the system. Why give options that don't apply.

 

As for Fords reasoning behind the DRL for 13 and 14 units, who knows. Perhaps it's as simple as they offered for Fleet only and told customers that. But I do remember having the option to order the DRL on 13. I passed on the 45,00 charge for it, Only to want them enabled later.

 

But think about the "turn it on for only fleet vehicle" stuff. They should know if a vehicle is a fleet order. So turn them on at the factory and then tell all the general public, "sorry no can do". Or... they figure many dealers will do it "gratis" so they lose out on the money for having the car ordered with it.

 

Either way, it is what it is. Find a dealer that will do it if yours won't.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Sleddog

[corncobs]

Cool now we drifting into to the PLC world. ;)

 

While Sleddog has an excellent point with options being grayed out if not there I don't believe that uploading the program is a possibility in cars. Not that I have seen the program used the view / change parameters but I picture this more like a UI to view and modify rather then actually seeing how it's programmed.

 

Btw that you can't use the same software package across multiple OS is just crappy or money making business practices by AB.

[TonyHzNV]

Last night I called the dealer where I usually take my car for service (because it's the closest to me) which is Team Ford in NW Las Vegas, NV and the SA I spoke with said he needed to talk to his manager and he would call me back in the morning. I didn't get the phone in time when he called and he left me a voice mail saying that the shop manager told him they can't do it because it's illegal. I just smiled to myself having read that before in this forum. A few minutes later I got a TEXT from him saying that his Operations Manager told him they WILL activate the DRLs for $116. After reading here what others have or have not paid, I thanked him for the info and told him I would decide what I was going to do and let him know. Then I called my salesman at Friendly Ford where I bought the car, also in Las Vegas, and asked him if he would look into it for me. He assured me that they had turned on DRLs for other Ford vehicles before, but he would look into it specifically for my FFH and get back to me. So now I'm just waiting for him to call me back and let me know what's up. I will let you all know.

 

Update: My salesman at Friendly Ford called me back and said that they will do it at no charge and gave me the name of the tech to ask for when I bring it in because he knows about my request. THE FORUM STRIKES AGAIN! :)

 

P.S. Will have to look into getting this done on my 2013 F150 as well!

Edited December 24, 2014 by TonyHzNV

[jeffo65]

Last night I called the dealer where I usually take my car for service (because it's the closest to me) which is Team Ford in NW Las Vegas, NV and the SA I spoke with said he needed to talk to his manager and he would call me back in the morning. I didn't get the phone in time when he called and he left me a voice mail saying that the shop manager told him they can't do it because it's illegal. I just smiled to myself having read that before in this forum. A few minutes later I got a TEXT from him saying that his Operations Manager told him they WILL activate the DRLs for $116. After reading here what others have or have not paid, I thanked him for the info and told him I would decide what I was going to do and let him know. Then I called my salesman at Friendly Ford where I bought the car, also in Las Vegas, and asked him if he would look into it for me. He assured me that they had turned on DRLs for other Ford vehicles before, but he would look into it specifically for my FFH and get back to me. So now I'm just waiting for him to call me back and let me know what's up. I will let you all know.

 

Also check with a local Lincoln dealer. They can turn them on as well.

[TonyHzNV]

Thanks, Jeff. I actually did check with the Lincoln dealer. Team Ford is actually Team Ford/Lincoln. They're the ones who want $116 to do it. The only other Lincoln dealer in Vegas, Findlay Lincoln, is down in Henderson, about 25 miles from me, so I thought I would try Friendly Ford (about 5 miles away) before them. I guess I got lucky, although, I HAVE purchased about 10 vehicles from Friendly Ford over the last 20 years. I guess that could make me a "good" customer. :)

Edited December 24, 2014 by TonyHzNV

[milleron]

Thanks, Jeff. I actually did check with the Lincoln dealer. Team Ford is actually Team Ford/Lincoln. They're the ones who want $116 to do it. The only other Lincoln dealer in Vegas, Findlay Lincoln, is down in Henderson, about 25 miles from me, so I thought I would try Friendly Ford (about 5 miles away) before them. I guess I got lucky, although, I HAVE purchased about 10 vehicles from Friendly Ford over the last 20 years. I guess that could make me a "good" customer. :)

Tony, I'm glad you found a cooperative dealer, but I don't believe I've ever heard a price nearly that high. $116 sounds totally unreasonable. If you're an established customer at Friendly, they might do it for nothing, as many (most?) dealers have done for forum members, but $116 is >2 SDs from the mean.

[TonyHzNV]

Tony, I'm glad you found a cooperative dealer, but I don't believe I've ever heard a price nearly that high. $116 sounds totally unreasonable. If you're an established customer at Friendly, they might do it for nothing, as many (most?) dealers have done for forum members, but $116 is >2 SDs from the mean.

Yeah, I know. That's the highest price I've heard of or seen too! Of course that was the quoted price for bringing the car in solely for the DRL activation and nothing else. Still, for a job that only takes about 10 minutes including driving it into the bay, it sure seems like a lot of money. And remember that at first they told me that it was illegal and they couldn't do it at all. Just another greedy dealer who doesn't care about customer service. Sad.