Hybrid Motor Coolant Issues

[Dmaxard]

So I purchased a FFH with 28,000 miles on it. I’ve been driving it everyday and I love the car. When I purchased it, I noticed that the hybrid reservoir for coolant was below minimum and asked the salesman if there was any reported issues (big mistake) and was obviously shut down. Gotta make the sale. 
 

So obviously I figured it would be fine, the car is under warranty and anything like that should be covered, right? Wrong. I have had my fusion in the shop a total of 7 times over the past three months for everything from pressure tests to 1000 mile consumption tests. Every. Single. Time. They. Tell. Me. Something. Different. Fast forward to 45,000 miles, the car is going through a full reservoir every thousand or so miles. It’s drinking the antifreeze like crazy. Last week I had enough and when my car was in the shop for the third consumption/pressure test, I was told that Ford is going to have a linesman specialist come in and dig deep into every possible hose and anywhere that the hybrid motor could be leaking from. They told me that it’s likely my engine because nothing was found with the ultraviolet dye, but the pressure test dropped 4 PSI in 15 minutes. I agreed and rescheduled. I’m only 20 so I’m unable to get a loaner also.
 

Fast forward to today- I brought the car in at 7 am on my only day off and then waited for 8 hours for them to tell me that the 4 hour pressure test revealed absolutely nothing. I called Ford corporate and requested that the issue be escalated. 
 

Now, with all things aside, they have told me that there’s a leak in the lines, a leak in the engine, that it evaporates, and that there has been nothing found. Each time they slap some more antifreeze into both motors and call it good and send me on my way. 

I grew up on a farm working on cars my entire life and know that antifreeze does not evaporate at the rate that Ford is claiming. There’s clearly a leak somewhere. They claim this is a owner serviceable item but clearly someone is hiding something. Every 1000 miles I use a quart of antifreeze at a minimum. Any ideas as to why to do or where to go from here? 
 

As I said previously, I’m a 20 year old EMT who works hard for his money and am trying to get on my own feet without parental help and Ford is playing games. If anyone has any insight or idea as to what’s happening or has this issue as well I would appreciate your knowledge on how to fix this problem. 

[eisbaer]

Hi and welcome.

You're right, it doesn't just disappear and has to go somewhere.

If your invested in trying to fix the issue with Ford, I would suggest taking it to another dealership and without saying anything about what you have already done with the current, see what they say. Many times Ive read here that doing this get results. No guarantee though.

You could take it to a reputable third party mechanic that and pay for a diagnosis. I would tell them all that you have done to assist in trying to find the issue.

Other than that, if you're into trying to self diagnose look at the system over multiple days or weeks. You may see something tomorrow that you didn't see today.

In my own personal experience, while you would think it would be easy to find a leak, there can be certain variables that prevent it from showing up. Things expand and contract. Maybe go into places that where you think they don't but overall the cooling systems on these are fairly simple.

My questions for you are: You say initially the hybrid reservoir is low but then later you say they (ford) topped off both systems???

tbh while it seems a lot, that much over 1000 miles isn't going to be gushing out of anywhere, its either a slow leak or something like a hose is spurting under pressure or heat expansion.

do you smell antifreeze in the cabin or after exiting the car?

Lets start with that ?

[Dmaxard]

10 hours ago, eisbaer said:

Hi and welcome.

You're right, it doesn't just disappear and has to go somewhere.

If your invested in trying to fix the issue with Ford, I would suggest taking it to another dealership and without saying anything about what you have already done with the current, see what they say. Many times Ive read here that doing this get results. No guarantee though.

You could take it to a reputable third party mechanic that and pay for a diagnosis. I would tell them all that you have done to assist in trying to find the issue.

Other than that, if you're into trying to self diagnose look at the system over multiple days or weeks. You may see something tomorrow that you didn't see today.

In my own personal experience, while you would think it would be easy to find a leak, there can be certain variables that prevent it from showing up. Things expand and contract. Maybe go into places that where you think they don't but overall the cooling systems on these are fairly simple.

My questions for you are: You say initially the hybrid reservoir is low but then later you say they (ford) topped off both systems???

tbh while it seems a lot, that much over 1000 miles isn't going to be gushing out of anywhere, its either a slow leak or something like a hose is spurting under pressure or heat expansion.

do you smell antifreeze in the cabin or after exiting the car?

Lets start with that ?

I do not smell or see antifreeze. When I bought the car I had taken it on a test drive the week before and noticed that the reservoir was low. Between the test drive and purchase, they filled it. I’ve gone through about 2 and a half gallons between my antifreeze and the dealers,  I drive 1000 miles in a week or two, there’s no smell or puddle under the car after moving in the morning. Thanks for the help

[murphy]

Here is a reference point for you.  My car is almost 8 years old and I have never had to put any coolant into it.

[2014FordFusionSE]

Another point of reference. My car is 6.5 years old and I've never touched the coolant.

[Cobra348]

I have nothing to contribute as to cause of issues, but I would remind you ... like Medical stuff, you can get a second opinion.  Ie., go to another dealer if you are not happy with the one you use now.

 

[2014FordFusionSE]

6 hours ago, Cobra348 said:

I have nothing to contribute as to cause of issues, but I would remind you ... like Medical stuff, you can get a second opinion.  Ie., go to another dealer if you are not happy with the one you use now.

 

 

I agree. If a 2nd dealer doesn't help, try a local mechanic.

You have to find the root cause.

[mwr]

> I figured it would be fine, the car is under warranty and anything like that should be covered, right? Wrong. <

Why wasn't the problem covered under warranty? How many miles were on the car when you first took it to a Ford dealer with the problem?

[ElectricFan69]

12 hours ago, mwr said:

> I figured it would be fine, the car is under warranty and anything like that should be covered, right? Wrong. <

Why wasn't the problem covered under warranty? How many miles were on the car when you first took it to a Ford dealer with the problem?

I think the OP's point was that they attempted to resolve it, but with no result, now claiming it was 'normal' - an assertion that is stuffed with dairy barn sweepings.

 

Based on the described behavior, I'd suspect a sealing issue  that happens under 'dynamic load'.  This would be in a seal between case segments for the PSD  It should show up as a pressure test leak-down - and may, eventually. 

Also, the PSD and ICE coolant circuits are separate.  ICE circuit typically runs pressurized, and at much higher temperatures.  The loss of pressure would indicate an ICE leak.  From the original post, it seems that it's the hybrid system that is losing volume - to the OP, would you confirm / clarify that?  The cooling system has 2 separate circuits - which one is losing volume?  The ICE circuit overflow reservoir is on the RH wheel well - the PSD circuit reservoir is on / near the inverter.  Based on everything I've seen, the 2 circuits are not connected.  Looking at the PSD circuit cap, it also does not seem to be designed to pressurize.

 

I would hope they verified lubricant integrity - if it's leaking into the PSD case, the pink mayo that results from coolant contamination will cause a failure in bearings.  The loss volume described would certainly be enough to indicate contamination if it's going into the lubricant.

[Dmaxard]

On 10/24/2020 at 1:30 PM, ElectricFan69 said:

I think the OP's point was that they attempted to resolve it, but with no result, now claiming it was 'normal' - an assertion that is stuffed with dairy barn sweepings.

Precisely

On 10/24/2020 at 1:30 PM, ElectricFan69 said:

From the original post, it seems that it's the hybrid system that is losing volume - to the OP, would you confirm / clarify that?  The cooling system has 2 separate circuits - which one is losing volume? 

The Hybrid reservoir. 

On 10/24/2020 at 1:30 PM, ElectricFan69 said:

I would hope they verified lubricant integrity - if it's leaking into the PSD case, the pink mayo that results from coolant contamination will cause a failure in bearings.  The loss volume described would certainly be enough to indicate contamination if it's going into the lubricant.

And how do I get them to test this/ test it myself?

 

you have provided me with more insight in one response than Ford has in 7 visits as well as speaking to a regional service manager. Thank you. 

[ElectricFan69]

1 hour ago, Dmaxard said:

Precisely

The Hybrid reservoir. 

And how do I get them to test this/ test it myself?

 

you have provided me with more insight in one response than Ford has in 7 visits as well as speaking to a regional service manager. Thank you. 

The hybrid circuit has few basic places where it would be hard to determine a leak:  

1. The PSD (AKA "Transmission" ).  The coolant loss could manifest in lube contamination for internal leaks - other versions leaking to the outside of the case should show up in the UV dye.  Checking / changing the PSD lube would eliminate or confirm that possibility. There are instruction on this site on how to do that - https://fordfusionhybridforum.com/forum/11-maintenance-do-it-yourself/, look for the PSD fluid posts.
2. The inverter internal heat exchanger.  This could be relatively obscured, and I have yet to see any tear-down videos or service parts.  The inverter seems to be a 'non-field-serviceable' part - you just pull and replace.  And it's EPEN$IVE, so you need to be sure.  
3. Coolant pump and hoses - these should be readily apparent as source with fluorescent dye.
4. Heat exchanger - again, by its nature, should be pretty obvious with the dye test.

The volume lost should make the leaking part obvious with the dye test, if it 's at all accessible.  The lack of evidence leads me to the hidden heat exchangers - but even those should show up schmutz of evaporated coolant near the vent points, or in the lube, given the loss volume.

Edited October 26, 2020 by ElectricFan69

[Dmaxard]

So basically what you’re saying is that Ford is hiding something? 

[eisbaer]

5 hours ago, Dmaxard said:

So basically what you’re saying is that Ford is hiding something? 

Personally I wouldnt say that. Dealearships are relatively incompetent at diagnosing their own vehicles even with supposed help they get from repair guides and self checking systems.

Overall they are humans where if the issue cant be directly seen at the end of the day it isnt their car and they dont care about it as much as you.

First and foremost the issue here is the system is losing fluid. as you said, it doesnt just disappear. IF you can't see it externally it has to be going somewhere internally. The system of issue, isnt really complicated, it just needs to be traced start to finish as to where it its going.

Edited October 27, 2020 by eisbaer

[Waldo]

14 hours ago, Dmaxard said:

So basically what you’re saying is that Ford is hiding something? 

 

What would Ford be trying to hide?  You need to understand the relationship.  The Dealership is not Ford.  The service manager and mechanics do not work for Ford, they work for the dealership.  When they perform warranty work, they get paid by Ford.  But Ford has rules and procedures that have to be followed.  So if the dealership employees feel a job is too complicated relative to the amount they know they will get paid from Ford, they have little motivation to really dig in to it.  And when Ford doesn't really know what the problem is (because of a lack of communication coming from the Dealership), they can't really do much since there really isn't a mechanism to just throw money at problems.  You can help that by going directly to Ford customer service to get them to help push the dealership into more action.  The relationship between the dealer and Ford is also key.  Many dealerships have developed bad reputations with Ford, so Ford is very stingy with them and will only pay them for things that can truly be proven to be issues.  Other dealerships have developed good reputations so Ford will cut them a bit more slack (in terms of approving warranty claims) and so they can put in a bit more effort knowing they're going to get paid.  That's why changing to a different dealership can work for you, but all you can really do is guess at which ones are good and which ones are bad.

[Limodrvr]

My 2018 FFH has 80k miles on it.    Every 5k the hybrid coolant reservoir would go from max to min.   The second dealer took interest in testing it when I mentioned it was losing coolant.  

 

The first dealer found nothing four months and 20k miles ago.

 

Second dealer found leaks today, not quite sure, but they told me evidence was on radiator that a leak was there for some time.    Failed pressure  test right away.   I am waiting on parts to be installed next week.   I'll update when complete.