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Hybrid or Energi?


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35 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   91er

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 10:09 AM

Hi all,

 

While I fully realize that many in the 'Hybrid' forum may be biased a bit, I'm wondering if anyone here has any regrets about not going with an Energi?  I've been running numbers 10 different ways and I can't quite make the Energi make financial sense with gas prices as high as about $4/gal.  I'm no eco-zealot that needs the satisfaction of driving a plug-in but I have to admit there is some allure to the idea.  I'm having trouble deciding and here's some basic info:

 

Winter driving (Wisconsin)

19K miles/year

Mostly running kids to school daily.  Depending on the child, 1 is a 9 mile round trip and the other is a 22 mile round trip.

Work is 26 miles away (highway) but I only show up 1-2 times/week.

Trunk space isn't much of an issue.  My other car is a Sequoia  :)

 

Additional questions/concerns:

1. While I can't completely grasp the impact of it, I've read that on shorter trips the Hybrid won't get hot enough to realize it's fuel saving potential.  How does one quantify that?

2. Winter performance concerns me a little with both cars.  I spoke with a hybrid owner yesterday and she said her winter traction was lacking when starting from a dead stop.  I live in the suburbs.

 

So what say you?  I've run all of the 5-yr cost comparisons (including my own) and really it's only $2-3K difference between the 2 any way I split it.

 

Thanks for any opinions...

 

C









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#2 OFFLINE   murphy

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 11:00 AM

Was the woman with winter traction problems using winter tires?  Is she a lead-foot driver.  It takes finesse to limit the torque when starting from being stopped.

 

With lots of short trips you would need a 240 volt charger to take advantage of an Energi.

I have 10 kW of PV solar panels on the roof of my house so my electricity cost is less than $0.02 per kWh in the winter with low sun angles and around $0.005 per kWh in the summer.  Also with a 240 volt charger the car cabin can be warmed up using power from the wall instead of the battery before leaving.

 

I had a 2010 Fusion Hybrid and now have a 2013 Fusion Energi and there is no way I will ever go back to a hybrid.  Moving forward it is either PHEV or BEV or both.  Actually it is already both.


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#3 OFFLINE   Texasota

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 11:44 AM

Trunk space isn't much of an issue.  My other car is a Sequoia 

You could be surprised how much the small trunk might be an issue for you. With a run to grandma's house or a big grocery run you might find the trunk issue a bigger concern than you think and will end up taking the Sequoia when you would prefer not.



#4 OFFLINE   rjent

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 12:23 PM

I for one, am sorry we didn't get an Energi.  And because of that, we are ordering a new Energi as I type this.  The HyTI has been phenomenal, everything we want .... when we are on one of our twice a year road trips, but in our small town it is very frustrating.

 

Bottom line is what kind of driving are you doing.  I think short trips around town the Energi is a far superior choice.  I also think, in the mountainous region I live in, the Energi is also a superior choice.  I know I can regen a full 20 mile electric charge on many of our trips out of town simply by going down long steep grades. 

 

I look forward to seeing what other say here.  I will have the perspective of both soon ;)   Hybridbear helped me out a lot over the last few weeks on this decision, thanks bear!

 

JMHO

 

Dick


Edited by rjent, 26 March 2015 - 12:24 PM.

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#5 OFFLINE   Hybrider

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 02:19 PM

With an FFH, it takes me just 10 minutes to fill up, and then I'm ready to go again for an easy 600-650 miles, and gas stations are on every corner, no muss, no fuss. :shift:  But my daily commute is on the longer side too. I have no regrets on purchasing my FFH.


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#6 OFFLINE   corncobs

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 05:24 PM

For your kinda driving I wouldn't think twice about a Energi.
I believe you would be very disappointed in a regular hybrids fuel economy with those short drives.

Besides the cost factor (which is to be considered) just think about a nicely preconditioned car all warmed up without having to waste gas in the cold WI winters.

Winter driving for sure is no issue and if really wanna make sure you never get stuck buy a set of winter tires from the money you will be saving on gas. ;)



Just my 2 cents
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#7 OFFLINE   jeff_h

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 05:40 PM

If you take the plunge and get a 240V charger and can leave it plugged in to pre-heat during winter with the GO Times, you will have a very happy spouse and happy school kids as they get into a warm car each morning.  To me, that's the best feature of all, as I get into my warm car and leave at 5am and then plug hers in and her car is then also nice and warm when she leaves at 7am.


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#8 OFFLINE   91er

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 10:09 PM

Thanks so much for all of the input everyone.  You know, that GO feature sounds slick as grease.  I hadn't really factored that into the equation until now but it is a creature comfort that we Northerners would actually use and appreciate!  As for the woman with traction problems, I have no idea what her history is.  I'm really doubting she had snow tires and who knows what type of vehicle she came out of.  As for me, I have always been curious about Nokian WRG2's.  I've read stellar things about them but have never had the courage to pull the trigger on them.  I actually think they may have been replaced by WRG3's now.  The 240V charger is a no-brainer for me and I was planning on it but what kind would remain to be seen.  I'd seen the JuiceBox Classic for $450 shipped which didn't look like a bad deal to me?  Again, thanks for all of the input.  I'll let you know what happens.



#9 OFFLINE   jeff_h

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 06:30 AM

The 240V charger is a no-brainer for me and I was planning on it but what kind would remain to be seen.  I'd seen the JuiceBox Classic for $450 shipped which didn't look like a bad deal to me?  Again, thanks for all of the input.  I'll let you know what happens.

 

On the Energi forum we often get one user or another who will pop in and say that buying a 240V charger will take too long to pay for itself and therefore is not economically viable, to which I often reply that one can also save a bunch of money with dial-up internet too but that I doubt anyone who gets high-speed internet regrets it... anyway, there are many threads on the Energi forum about 240V chargers to get, below is a link to one I started almost 2 years ago (time flies!).

 

http://www.fordfusio...you-buyinstall/


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#10 OFFLINE   CCalvinN

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 08:32 AM

As a new FFH owner weight my opinion justly.

 

When I take short trips in town the FFH barely seems to 'warm up'.  I'm not talking about the creature comfort of a toasty interior, rather the engine keeps running spoiling all those glorious mpgs.  That being said a buddy of mine has a Chevy Volt and does only short(ish) drives around town.  He's had the Volt for just about a year now and outside of a trip to Florida the car reports it's used about a gallon of gas.  I didn't consider the Energi myself as my daily work commute is closer to 100 miles so I'd be burning a lot of gas on those trips.

 

By what you've said your driving is I'd imagine you'd barely be using gasoline.  


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#11 OFFLINE   Da0ne

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 08:32 AM

i originally started with a hybrid here back in '13 and after having the car for a 1.5 yrs i traded her in for the Energi and dont regret it as my commute is 12 miles each way and normally can do both lengths in 1 charge as long as the weather is good. I only use the 120V charger included with the car


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#12 OFFLINE   corncobs

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 03:28 PM

i originally started with a hybrid here back in '13 and after having the car for a 1.5 yrs i traded her in for the Energi and dont regret it as my commute is 12 miles each way and normally can do both lengths in 1 charge as long as the weather is good. I only use the 120V charger included with the car


Did you mention that before? I must have missed that, congrats on the Energi
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#13 OFFLINE   Gigi

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 12:34 AM

In my experience with the 2012 FFH, short trips of less than 5 miles produce lousy gas mileage.  I drive four southeastern states for work.  The FFH gets great gas mileage in the mountains - lots of opportunities to regen - and gets mediocre gas mileage at interstate speeds along the coast where it is flat.  For a round trip commute of 58 miles in rush hour traffic, gas mileage is great.

 

In my experience with the Energi, lots of short trips driven on electricity with opportunities to charge in between trips, is very economical.  During one seven week period, I drove 1,600 miles on 9.5 gallons of gas which came out to 168 mpg plus about $46.00 of electricity.

 

At 19,000 miles a year, you are averaging about 52 miles a day.  In order to drive the Energi mostly on electricity, you will need to start in the morning with a full charge and then have opportunity to plug in and get at least one full charge and plug in again for a half charge each day.  A full charge at 240V will take 2 hours.  A full charge at 120V will take about 5 1/2 hours.  If you have free or at-home charging available during the day and the time to do it, you would be able to drive the Energi mostly on electricity, which will be very economical.  When my wife drives our Energy for her 53 mile round trip commute during the coldest days and without charging at work, she ends up getting about 69 mpg plus electricity.

 

I drive an FFH as my company car about 50K per year.  On the road, I don't have opportunities to charge, so an Energi wouldn't make sense.  In my previous job, with daily driving of only about 30 miles a day with the ability to charge at work, I hardly ever bought gasoline and the Energi was very economical even with the cost of the charging station and the higher price for the car.

 

One thing I found with the Energi: driving on electricity is addictive, so much so that we went out and bought a Focus Electric for my wife's daily 53 mile round trip commute.

 

And GO Times in the Energi are wonderful.  Not only is the interior the right temperature, the battery is conditioned for driving and ready to put everything into moving the car.  Running the heater in the wintertime takes a lot of juice, so expect that a full charge that would normally take you 24 or more miles in the spring or fall will take you 16-18 on the coldest days in the winter.  Fortunately, with the Energi, you have the engine as a backup.

 

Good luck with your decision.  I crunched a lot of numbers before buying each of these cars.  Each car fits the purpose for which we intended it well.


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#14 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 05:19 PM

You could be surprised how much the small trunk might be an issue for you. With a run to grandma's house or a big grocery run you might find the trunk issue a bigger concern than you think and will end up taking the Sequoia when you would prefer not.


We haven't ever had an issue.

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#15 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 05:21 PM

I'm a big fan of the Energi. I think everyone else has hit on the main points already. How much price difference are you seeing between the Energi and Hybrid. The $4007 Energi tax credit should make up just about all of the difference in cost. You might be able to find a great deal on a leftover 2013 or 2014 Energi where it is cheaper than a hybrid. That's what we did.

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#16 OFFLINE   Da0ne

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Posted 29 March 2015 - 05:13 PM

Did you mention that before? I must have missed that, congrats on the Energi

 

thanks yeah i mention it on the one of the post where hb put up about leftover '13 energi titanium 


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#17 OFFLINE   91er

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 11:23 PM

Thanks everyone.  I've been back and forth on this so many times I'm surprised I don't have whiplash.  I was pretty much all set to buy the FFH Titanium but I've had trouble finding the right color/option combo.  It turns out that I'm one of about 6 people who like the Ceramic interior  ;) and I really don't want a whole bunch of options on top of what the base Titanium offers.  That's tough marriage, at least in these parts.

 

So here's some math and observations from my Spreadsheet-From-Hell:

 

1. I'm dealing with below invoice pricing from all dealers left in the running.  Once you factor in the $4007 rebate on the Energi the prices are within a few hundred $'s

2. I'm looking at 5-year total costs for my calculations between Titanium FFH's and FFE's with basically the same options.  I ran numbers with gas being $2.50, $3.50, and $4.00 per gallon. Energi Includes 240V charger cost and the $4007 rebate.

3. I used fueleconomy.gov for the FFE #s and simple mpg arithmetic for the FFH.

4. Residual values of either car are not factored in.  I'm not sure how I'd even estimate that difference.  

 

With charging it ALL the time and gas at:

$2.50/gal: Hybrid wins by $400

$3.50/gal: Energi wins by $800

$4.00/gal: Energi wins by $1500

 

Based on my driving profile I think I can do better than what fueleconomy.gov says but I did not extrapolate the numbers.  So how did I arrive at the Hybrid decision?  Basically it comes down to screwing around.  For saving somewhere in the vicinity of $1000 over the course of 5 years at 0 degrees F I'm plugging, unplugging, always looking for power, dragging around extension cords in my teeny-tiny trunk, and feeling guilty if I couldn't get my 'fix' of AC Power to make this thing worth the money.  It just didn't seem worth it to me for all of the hassle.

 

So some time later I sez to myself, I sez, "Self, what if you're so lazy that you NEVER plug it in over 5 years?"  

 

I ran straight Hybrid performance numbers on Energi costs and pricing and came up with:

$2.50/gal: Hybrid wins by $1500

$3.50/gal: Hybrid wins by $1600

$4.00/gal: Hybrid wins by $1600

 

I think it's actually pretty interesting when you compare those 2 sets of numbers.  Other than with gas at $2.50/gal I guess main take-away is that even if I wouldn't religiously charge it, say only charge it 1/2 the time or when it's convenient, the middle range of those sets of $/gal numbers is pretty darn close to zero difference over 5 years.  Even where the Energi loses it's really not a meaningful number over a 60-month period. I personally don't think gas is going to be staying at $2.50 either but that's just me.  If I had proof of that I'd be ordering a Tesla  :)

 

So, I'm going to be buying a Titanium Energi tomorrow.  If we don't plug it in, fine.  If I plug it in all the time (which knowing me, I likely will), all the better.   :rockon:


Edited by 91er, 31 March 2015 - 12:48 AM.


#18 OFFLINE   murphy

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 05:03 AM

Consider this: $1600 spread over 5 years is about 88 cents a day.  That is a small price to pay to get an Energi.  I did not take any trips out of town in my Energi in 2014 and bought 27 gallons of gasoline.  From May through October all driving was electric.  When winter hit I forced it to run the engine to use the old gasoline in the tank.  I normally keep it at 1/4 tank but last June I had a large discount available at the supermarket gas station so I filled the tank expecting to use it all at Thanksgiving.  I ended up not using the car for that trip. 



#19 OFFLINE   mwr

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 06:43 AM

Very interesting. using your same analysis, I would probably opt for the Hybrid because (1) the cost saving per month is so low, (2) no hassle at all about charging, and (3) much larger trunk.

-------------------------------------

I think it's actually pretty interesting when you compare those 2 sets of numbers.  Other than with gas at $2.50/gal I guess main take-away is that even if I wouldn't religiously charge it, say only charge it 1/2 the time or when it's convenient, the middle range of those sets of $/gal numbers is pretty darn close to zero difference over 5 years.  Even where the Energi loses it's really not a meaningful number over a 60-month period. I personally don't think gas is going to be staying at $2.50 either but that's just me.  If I had proof of that I'd be ordering a Tesla  :)

 

So, I'm going to be buying a Titanium Energi tomorrow.  If we don't plug it in, fine.  If I plug it in all the time (which knowing me, I likely will), all the better.   :rockon:


Edited by mwr, 31 March 2015 - 06:44 AM.

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#20 OFFLINE   91er

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 07:33 AM

@ mwr, I can't argue with that assessment either.  The numbers are so close that I think you could skew them just about any way you wanted to and there's not much of a flat-out winner.  The Energi also adds the GO feature for cold mornings, the potential to possibly do much better on EV only than the projections, and some insulation against REALLY high gas prices if that sand box across the ocean lights up. 


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