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Regen Braking Issue When Turning


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164 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   FordService

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 10:56 AM

well, not as well as I had hoped for. Apparently a braking issue is not high enough on the list to have a specialist come out to work on it, only thing that was suggested is to get a second opinion, so I have an appointment setup at Alphorn for Thursday.  Well if it turns out that they come to the same conclusion, and I am stuck with a car with faulty brakes, its going away and I will just move on to something else. Frankly between the dealer screwing me on other things, and this I am fed up with Ford right now.   Ford gets one last chance on this, then if not resolved, no more ford for me.

I've updated your case notes, please keep me in the loop on this. I see your CSM's given you her contact info to use after her appointment.

 

Meagan









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#42 OFFLINE   airbusguy

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 12:03 PM

Just a WAG but have you disabled the stability control system to see if that has an effect on the symptoms?


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#43 OFFLINE   billford

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 01:50 PM

If it hasn't been done, you can try and insist that the dealer tech contact the Ford Tech Hotline. Its an online process. Different levels of engineers get involved and they offer suggestions or fixes for difficult problems that the service manuals do not address.You can also ask to see the hotline results.

 

In some cases an area rep will be dispatched to the dealer.



#44 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 05 May 2015 - 09:15 PM

It's like when you go into (name any national chain store) and the sales person tells you about the products by reading the product label or a sign on the shelf. Or the appliance repairman who can swap the parts out that's he's been sent to do, but can't diagnose anything.

Yep Been there, STILL doing that. Have an LG refrigerator that has been out of service going on 6 weeks now. Phone jockey parts swapper has been out 3 times, threw a new compressor in on the second visit, which did not fix it, was out a third time, burned up 4 hours of my wife's time she will not get paid for, and still not fixed, throwing more parts at it, we think, they aren't calling us back. 

 

Have you reported the problem to the NHTSA? They know how to get Ford's attention when safety is involved.

Yes I did.  However, those of us who are very adept at brake scores would be the only ones who would notice the problems, the average driver would most likely not notice the difference in braking, though the surge while turning they might notice if they go fast enough through a turn. 

 

Just a WAG but have you disabled the stability control system to see if that has an effect on the symptoms?

Yep, turned everything I could off. 

 

 

Heres the thing, no codes, not even with their fancy computer hooked up, so Ford hotline wont do anything for them. Grysql had a thought that it might be the RCM, since there is a recall on it, and does tie into these systems, so I talked to the tech, who checked and unless it throws a code, they wont replace it. 

 

Bottom line I am fed up with these cars being so damned complex that you need an electrical engineer with a boatload of tools and stuff to diagnose, and that the average mechanic does not have access to, that I gave up.  This plus due to an arthritic condition that makes it very painful to be in the car for anything more than 30 minutes I decided to trade it in on something I can drive long periods without having extreme pain.  I'm also tired of the hybrid game, been doing it for 8 years now, which was OK when I had a lot of city driving, but now my daily drive is 90% highway, which defeats the purpose of the Hybrid.  I tried to get a Flex to replace it, but couldn't find one I could afford, but ran across a very sweet deal on a truck, so after tomorrow the Fusion will be gone. 

 

I wanted to keep the Fusion, let my wife drive it, but financially I just could not swing it, so it had to be the sacrifice. Taking it down to two vehicles, which should make it easier in the long run, one less car to plate and insure, and we need a truck for projects and horses, that and I have not found a car I can drive for any length of time except a Taurus, and since one of those gets about the same MPG as the truck, made the decision even easier. 

 

If it weren't for the fact I just cant sit in the car for very long I would just keep after Ford to get the car fixed, but I found that the pain after getting home was affecting more than just me, as I was crabby and little things were setting me off.    I love the Fusion, probably one of the best cars ford has ever made, and it pains me to get rid of it, but it pained me more physically to drive it. It got to the point that I don't want to drive it anymore. In fact I have been home 3 hours and my left leg is still throbbing from the hip down. 

 

Meagan, thanks for the assist on this, it was worth a shot at least. 


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#45 OFFLINE   Sleddog

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Posted 10 June 2015 - 10:26 AM

Well over the past couple days, in warm weather, dry roads, I can confirm there is definitely an issue with the regen brakes.  My wife felt it in the passenger seat and then it dawned on her that she has felt it do that to her too, but dismissed it as tire slippage.  Pretty sure it is tied into the steering position sensor. Have an appointment on Friday to have it checked. The TCH did this to us all the time when coming to a stop, which was one of the driving forces to getting rid of it, that and the poor material quality, but I am not getting rid of this car at all, I know this one can be repaired. 

 

After reading this I paid a little more attention to braking while turning.  I can reproduce it, but only at speeds of less then 10 mph in a turn with light pressure on the brake petal in regen mode when mechanical brakes are not active.  In turn right or left turn at a speed higher then that, I'm not feeling it. This could be because of my driving technique, or lack there of. When it does happen it feels more like acceleration then the brakes being released.  In front wheel drive non-hybrid cars it's easy to feel the same thing when you have the wheels turned and accelerate.  This has the same feel, that feeling of more accerelation then the pressure on the go petal.  I thinks it's more of a power application because of the wheel position, then a wheel postion sensor issue.  The drive system seems to be appling more torque to the inside wheel in the turn over powering the regen braking.



#46 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 12:53 PM

Since we picked the Energi up from the dealer on Friday it is doing this. The PCM was reprogrammed per recall 15E03. The RCM was replaced per recall 14S21. The steering gear motor bolts were addressed per recall 15S14. The dealer also replaced the dead 12V battery. Our regen cut out happens when braking while turning left or right. It seems to happen every time if our speed is above a certain threshold. I am trying now to log data to figure out what is going on. I'm really getting fed up with Ford. Maybe we'll get rid of the Energi for a new Volt once they make it to MN. I'm very frustrated with Ford.


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#47 OFFLINE   murphy

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 02:36 PM

When making a right turn the right wheel will be rotating slower than the left wheel.  Maybe it is being detected as wheel slip on the left wheel. 

 

I only have the RCM update installed.  There is a manhole cover very close to an intersection near my house on a road that has a 25 mph speed limit.  Every time I get to the manhole cover all braking action stops while the left front wheel is bouncing across the manhole cover.  It feels like the car is speeding up but it is actually a lack of deceleration when my foot is on the brake that is confusing my brain.



#48 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 07:49 PM

When making a right turn the right wheel will be rotating slower than the left wheel.  Maybe it is being detected as wheel slip on the left wheel. 
 
I only have the RCM update installed.  There is a manhole cover very close to an intersection near my house on a road that has a 25 mph speed limit.  Every time I get to the manhole cover all braking action stops while the left front wheel is bouncing across the manhole cover.  It feels like the car is speeding up but it is actually a lack of deceleration when my foot is on the brake that is confusing my brain.

It happens turning left & right. We experience the same sensation you describe when braking on bumpy surfaces, particularly in the Focus Electric.
 
Here is a chart of the vehicle speed & traction motor torque when this happens. This happens on smooth surfaces. I maintain steady pedal pressure throughout this whole braking event. You can see the Motor Torque drop off. This is when the surge is felt.
Energi%20Motor%20Torque%20chart_zpsru9hv


Edited by hybridbear, 23 August 2015 - 07:55 PM.

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#49 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 08:14 PM

Here's a second chart where the issue is even more pronounced.
Energi%20Motor%20Torque%20chart%202_zpsx
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#50 OFFLINE   md13ffhguy

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 03:42 AM

There is a manhole cover very close to an intersection near my house on a road that has a 25 mph speed limit.  Every time I get to the manhole cover all braking action stops while the left front wheel is bouncing across the manhole cover.  It feels like the car is speeding up but it is actually a lack of deceleration when my foot is on the brake that is confusing my brain.


I've had that occur on rare occasions. It's a weird feeling! It's usually over before I can react. Of course, there's nothing you can really do about it anyhow. Fairly harmless in most circumstances, I guess.

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#51 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 09:00 AM

I filed a complaint with the NHTSA, the text is below. The complaint ID # is 10758745. I am also going to contact the dealership with the data I have logged so far & ask them to send it to the Ford Corporate Engineers for help.

 

The regenerative braking will cut out under specific circumstances and the car will feel like it is lurching forward instead of slowing down. The situation is: braking using only regen brakes, no friction brakes; steady pedal pressure; going 15-20 MPH; turning the steering wheel at least 90 degrees left or right; driving on smooth pavement. Data I have logged from the SOBDMC indicates that the traction motor briefly reduces its negative torque which causes the car to surge forward. In one instance that I logged, the negative torque shows around 48 ft-lbs and then suddenly drops to about 8 ft-lbs. The traction motor then gradually increases torque back to the appropriate level. In another instance, the negative torque suddenly went from about 28 ft-lbs to 8 ft-lbs. The drop in torque occurs in 1/10 of one second per my logged data. It takes about 2.5-3.0 seconds for the traction motor to return to the appropriate level of negative torque to stop the vehicle.

This behavior began occurring right after our vehicle was serviced by a local Ford dealership. The work done by the Ford dealership included replacing the 12V battery & 3 recalls: 14S21, 15E03 & 15S14. I believe that this service is responsible for these problems, as this issue was not present before our car went to the dealership.


Edited by hybridbear, 24 August 2015 - 09:07 AM.

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#52 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 09:56 AM

A few years ago, Prii had a similar problem when they went over grates or manhole covers while turnong. I think it had something to do with the ABS and I believe a software change fixed it. Yours is probably something else.



#53 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 12:41 PM

A few years ago, Prii had a similar problem when they went over grates or manhole covers while turning. I think it had something to do with the ABS and I believe a software change fixed it. Yours is probably something else.

Likely. Our issue is on smooth pavement, not when going over bumps. Many cars will behave strangely when going over bumps & braking because the tires momentarily lose contact with the ground.


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#54 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 01:56 PM

Update from the SA:

 

Ford has no answers or suggestions until we get the vehicle in and do some module checks and programing checks.

I'll take the Energi back to the dealership tomorrow.


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#55 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 06:16 PM

Today I got FORScan working completely with the Energi. I can only log PIDs from one module at a time, but FORScan has a better refresh rate. I logged data from the SOBDMC. I added Wheel Speed Sensors divided by 10 to make them scale better on the chart. This enables you to clearly see when the car is turning. This data was recorded during a right turn. The charts I posted earlier were both from left turns.

 

You can see that the HVB charge rate decreases in proportion with the decrease in torque from the traction motor. The traction motor RPM doesn't show any abnormal values during this time. The numbers along the X-axis are the time in milliseconds since I began streaming data in FORScan. This time, the reduction in stopping power lasted about 4 seconds. This appears to be longer than any other occurrence that I have logged.

 

Screenshot%202015-08-24%2018.15.48_zpsjd


Edited by hybridbear, 24 August 2015 - 06:22 PM.

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#56 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 09:04 PM

I did some additional testing tonight. I went to the empty parking ramp at work & tested some various scenarios.

Low Gear Left Turn

Low%20Left_zps7zzvt1xm.jpg

 

Low Gear Right Turn

Low%20Right_zpsh1p105xa.jpg

 

Braking Before Turning the Steering Wheel

Brk%20b4%20turn_zpsbegc3oo7.jpg

 

Turning Before Pressing the Brake Pedal

Turn%20b4%20brk_zpsohw3hru2.jpg

 

Notice how when using Low Gear to slow down when turning the regen doesn't cut out at 15-20 MPH.


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#57 OFFLINE   GrySql

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Posted 24 August 2015 - 10:20 PM

Ford Engineering ought to appreciate those graphs.  I doubt that they have ever done anything exactly like this because it is such an unexpected and vague system error.  This is excellent work. 

 

I think you ought to have FordService get involved here and get Ford Engineering to take a look at this while it's online here on the Forum. 


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#58 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 25 August 2015 - 08:11 AM

Larry tested with his car & determined that the car is supposed to reduce regen during turns. When turning the two front wheels turn at different speeds. Regen braking slows both front wheels at the same rate. Thus friction brakes are needed when braking while turning since each brake pad can be applied with a different amount of force. The issue appears to be that the brake pads are not being applied quickly enough & thus the surge is felt. The regen braking force doesn't come back for quite awhile according to the graphs. So the brake pads must be getting applied shortly after the sharp drop in regen force.

Larry postulated that the issue is different modules being at different software levels which are not compatible. Hopefully that will be all it takes to fix it.

With this additional information, I wish acdii was still around to get feedback about this issue with his FFH to help figure it out.

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#59 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 25 August 2015 - 10:20 AM

More info about how the braking is supposed to work:

Regenerative Braking Mode

The ABS module determines the amount of braking torque necessary and sends that info to the PCM along with the current threshold for ABS intervention. The PCM determines how much braking torque the electric motor can provide based on the High Voltage Traction Battery (HVTB) state-of-charge and sends this information back to the ABS module. At the same time, the electric motor is switched to a generator which supplies the determined amount of braking torque. Based on the amount of braking torque the PCM can deliver, the ABS module determines whether it is necessary to apply the friction brakes or if the brake torque from the electric motor is sufficient to safely stop the vehicle.


Friction Braking Mode

Under some circumstances, the brake torque generated by the electric motor is insufficient to bring the vehicle to a safe, controlled stop and requires the assistance of the conventional friction brakes. Additionally, the state-of-charge in the High Voltage Traction Battery (HVTB) may not allow for regenerative braking to take place or the vehicle may be experiencing an ABS or stability control event.

In these instances, the ABS module activates a mechanical relay which supplies power to the brake vacuum pump. At the same time, the ABS module sends a PWM voltage to a solenoid mounted on the brake booster. The solenoid allows vacuum from the vacuum pump to enter the brake booster which moves the booster push rod and applies the conventional friction brakes.

During certain braking events, the friction brakes can be applied directly by the driver. The brake booster push rod is equipped with an adjustable stop, once the brake pedal travels far enough to engage the stop, the brake booster push rod is forced into the master cylinder and the conventional friction brakes are applied.

I believe the issue is a module calibration issue which is causing the friction brakes to not be applied promptly when turning & braking at the same time.


Edited by hybridbear, 25 August 2015 - 10:20 AM.

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#60 OFFLINE   FordService

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Posted 25 August 2015 - 12:19 PM

Ford Engineering ought to appreciate those graphs.  I doubt that they have ever done anything exactly like this because it is such an unexpected and vague system error.  This is excellent work. 

 

I think you ought to have FordService get involved here and get Ford Engineering to take a look at this while it's online here on the Forum. 

 

Thanks!

 

Update from the SA:

I'll take the Energi back to the dealership tomorrow.

 

Keep me in the loop with how the dealer visit goes, and I'll check out some options on my end. :)

Meagan






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