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Register your Fusion Hybrid at the official Ford authorized registry here.


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Disappointing first fill up


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114 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   CCalvinN

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 05:18 PM

Relax, and stop comparing apples and oranges. Fuel economy is best observed over the long haul. Let it warm up and see what that does to your average. If, over a period that includes an equal amount of warmer weather, your average meets or exceeds your expectations, will your cold weather performance even matter?


I’m trying to compare apples to apples. I’m comparing how and where I drive between two cars. Same/similar weather. Same/similar route. Same/similar amount of idling. Under EPA conditions my current car gets better mileage. Under my conditions it doesn’t.

At first, I was only trying to share my disappointment. Maybe get a ‘Hey it will get better’ comment or two. Instead I got information on how to get better mileage. That has since driven my curiosity and I’m simply trying to find out where that difference is coming from.

I’m not agitated… I’m just curious.
 

Several of us have been trying to say this nicely already so maybe some different wording is needed.

Your expectations are unrealistic. Simple as that.

A bigger car will almost NEVER get better mileage than a smaller and lighter "economy" model.
The bigger car weighs more and (probably) has a significantly higher aero drag. Because of that, it likely has a bigger power plant.

Given your prime objective, you probably should have gone with the Focus hybrid or Cmax or PIP.

The situation IS what it IS. Continuing to fret over it accomplishes nothing good.


How exactly are my expectations unrealistic? The starting point of my expectations was the EPA sticker. FFH = more efficient than Focus. Just as I didn't get anywhere near the EPA numbers in the Focus during winter driving, I didn't expect to get near the EPA numbers in the FFH. I didn't even expect to get better than the Focus… I just was hoping that it would be equal.

A bigger car gets worse gas mileage than a smaller car. By that logic are you saying that I won’t get better than 37-40 mpg in the FFH even in the summer? That would be a first for me as I've exceeded the EPA numbers in all the cars that I've owned (at least the ones where I tracked fuel mileage).

I’d argue that continuing to fret over this should do me a lot of good. If I can figure out what exactly is making up this difference, I can then minimize that action and maximize any action that increases my fuel mileage.
 

And this is the issue. The window sticker MPG is not based on how you drive. It's based on the EPA test cycles. On the EPA test cycles the Fusion will use less fuel than the Focus. On your driving pattern the Fusion uses more gas than the Focus.

Idling is why you're getting such low MPG out of the Fusion. Stop idling the car and your MPG will be way better than the Focus.

The Fusion is much heavier than the Focus. This means it requires more energy to move it. At a sustained speed, say 75 MPH, the Fusion is going to require more energy to overcome aerodynamic drag & rolling resistance. The Focus will likely get better MPG at these speeds because it is smaller & lighter. The main advantage of a hybrid is being able to turn off the ICE at low speeds. But if you are cranking up the heat then the ICE is unable to turn off because it needs to burn fuel to heat the coolant to heat the cabin. The Fusion ICE burns fuel at idle at a high gallons per hour than the Focus. As lolder has explained many times before, the FFH Atkinson cycle ICE is designed to run at almost WOT all the time. This is how it becomes more efficient. It's also more efficient because it can work to keep the ICE in a narrowing operating range by using electric power to assist when there is a high power demand and by using the electric motors to store energy in the battery when power demand is low. However, when you spend a lot of time idling or at high speeds the benefit is negated.


What's a Focus Hybrid? How would the C-Max Hybrid perform any differently from the Fusion in this scenario?


I’m trying to figure out what between the EPAs test cycle and my driving is making this difference. Is it that the cold affects a hybrid more than it affects a non-hybrid? Is it that idling affects a hybrid more than it affects a non-hybrid?

‘Stop idling the car and your MPG will be way better than the Focus’. I acknowledge that. The MPG would also improve in the Focus if I hadn't idled… but I DID idle the Focus. I started it up before many trips and idled it during those lunches. As I said above, I’m trying to compare apples to apples.



I’ve read through this entire thread again, and it seems that I’m back full circle. I had understood the difference to be in the idling (back in post 18). After I gave myself a pat on the back for understanding that though I was ‘corrected’ for misunderstanding it. So I’m going to go back to what I said back in post 18:
 


Being here has allowed me two things.

1) The information as to why the fuel mileage is so low (remote start, idling, both of which burn far more fuel than a 'normal' car does while doing the same thing)

2) Seeing real people with real fuel mileages and the fact that they can average well above 40 mpg and are getting in the 30s in the winter. That alone gives me a lot of hope that I'll get far better fuel mileage as the mercury continues to rise.


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#42 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 05:31 PM

Guess my brain was asleep.

 

There isn't a Focus Hybrid ??  OK, substitute Prius.  My wife's C gets great mileage and rides better than you would think.

 

And the C-Max is not a plug-in model ??

Guess not.

Ford makes the Focus Electric and C-Max Hybrid or Energi and Fusion Hybrid or Energi. A Focus Energi has been rumored but never made. Energi = PHEV. Electric = BEV.

 

I’m trying to figure out what between the EPAs test cycle and my driving is making this difference. Is it that the cold affects a hybrid more than it affects a non-hybrid? Is it that idling affects a hybrid more than it affects a non-hybrid?

‘Stop idling the car and your MPG will be way better than the Focus’. I acknowledge that. The MPG would also improve in the Focus if I hadn't idled… but I DID idle the Focus. I started it up before many trips and idled it during those lunches. As I said above, I’m trying to compare apples to apples.

I’ve read through this entire thread again, and it seems that I’m back full circle. I had understood the difference to be in the idling (back in post 18). After I gave myself a pat on the back for understanding that though I was ‘corrected’ for misunderstanding it. So I’m going to go back to what I said back in post 18:

Cold affects the hybrid mode since cold prevents the ICE from turning off which is the advantage of the hybrid. The Fusion will require more energy than the Focus to move in almost every scenario (if not every scenario). If you're just measuring fuel used during idle, the Fusion should burn more grams per hour of gasoline than the Focus.

 

When you sit and idle is the ICE on or off? If you have MFT you can pull up the "Power Flow" screen to see what is happening. Any time spent not moving with the ICE on will significantly lower MPG. While the Fusion will charge the HVB while idling, there are always losses in converting energy from gasoline to mechanical energy to electrical energy to charge the HVB. That energy must then be converted from electrical energy back to mechanical energy later on. There are losses in those conversions. The best use of the ICE is to drive the wheels, charging the HVB when the ICE output is greater than the wheel power requirement and discharging the HVB when the wheel power demand is greater than what the ICE is providing.


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#43 OFFLINE   CCalvinN

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 05:55 PM

...
 
Cold affects the hybrid mode since cold prevents the ICE from turning off which is the advantage of the hybrid. The Fusion will require more energy than the Focus to move in almost every scenario (if not every scenario). If you're just measuring fuel used during idle, the Fusion should burn more grams per hour of gasoline than the Focus.
 
When you sit and idle is the ICE on or off? If you have MFT you can pull up the "Power Flow" screen to see what is happening. Any time spent not moving with the ICE on will significantly lower MPG. While the Fusion will charge the HVB while idling, there are always losses in converting energy from gasoline to mechanical energy to electrical energy to charge the HVB. That energy must then be converted from electrical energy back to mechanical energy later on. There are losses in those conversions. The best use of the ICE is to drive the wheels, charging the HVB when the ICE output is greater than the wheel power requirement and discharging the HVB when the wheel power demand is greater than what the ICE is providing.


It's a combination. With the remote start I'm obviously not monitoring it but I've approached the car and the ICE was off on several occasions. I assume once the engine is up to temp it cycles on and off as needed.

 

At first when I was idling it during my lunches it would do the same thing. Cycle on and off.  Now (for the past week or so) I get it to the location and once the ICE turns off, I turn the climate control off as well so that the ICE stays off until I drive back to work.  

 

Making sure I'm still on the same path though... it's not that the ICE running is burning fuel.  The same thing was happening in the Focus without the ICE occasionally turning off.  The bigger difference is that the ICE in the FFH is burning MORE fuel while idling than the Focus does.  Right?


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#44 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 08:59 PM

 

 

the ICE in the FFH is burning MORE fuel while idling than the Focus does. 

Yes. In the Focus the ICE is driving the water pump, alternator, and in summer, if air is on, AC compressor.  In the Fusion, the ICE is driving the generator at all times, which puts a load on the ICE unlike that of the alternator and water pump, but close to what the AC can do. Once the HVB is fully charged, that load is lessened quite a bit, but there is still some what of a load on it. IIRC since the ICE has no throttle plate, RPM's are governed through the use of the MG attached to it, and fuel flow.

 

The Idle in the Focus is about 700-900 RPM, in the Fusion it can be twice that.  From my observations, it is a thirsty devil when remote start is used, I calculated at least a gallon or more was used over a week's time, which was 50 minutes or less of idle time.  

 

Recalculate your tank, remove a gallon from it and see what you get. 


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#45 OFFLINE   Automate

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 09:35 PM

Diesel engines don't have a throttle but Atkinson cycles engines (what's in the FFH) do still have a throttle.  The Atkinson throttle will just be much more open at idle than a conventional engine.



#46 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 11:55 PM

The whole strategy behind a gas-electric hybrid is never to run the ICE unless you can load it up to an efficient operating point. When the car is in motion at low speeds which requires too little power, the ICE, when on, also powers the generator which is very large, about 80 hp I think. When the HVB is charged, the ICE shuts off and EV is used until the HVB gets low again and the cycle repeats. At higher speeds there is enough power demand to run the ICE continually efficiently. There is more loss in the cycling mode at low speed but it's still more efficient than running the ICE continually at an inefficient point. The Atkinson ICEs are run at the lowest RPM and almost full throttle plate opening that provides the power commanded by your foot. They are operated just shy of "bucking" that occurred with manual transmission cars in too high a gear. They are about as efficient with fuel BTUs as diesels. They rarely run burning less than a 1/2 to 1 gallon an hour at "idle". A standard ICE of this size might burn 1/4 gph or less while idling. You get most of the energy back from the HVB but any sitting "idling" in a hybrid is a mpg killer. If you fill the HVB while idling and it continues to run for cabin heat, that's even worse.


Edited by lolder, 05 March 2015 - 11:57 PM.

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#47 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 09:26 AM

I’m trying to figure out what between the EPAs test cycle and my driving is making this difference. Is it that the cold affects a hybrid more than it affects a non-hybrid? 

 

For all the typing in this thread, I think the answer is simply "Yes" to this question.


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#48 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 10:01 AM

 

For all the typing in this thread, I think the answer is simply "Yes" to this question.

Good answer, got me ROFL.   

 

BTW that prior one, was perfect. 


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#49 OFFLINE   Easy Rider

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 10:56 AM

I
A bigger car gets worse gas mileage than a smaller car. By that logic are you saying that I won’t get better than 37-40 mpg in the FFH even in the summer? 
 

 

That, of course, isn't a hard and fast rule but is generally true.

 

37-40 is about the best I can do with my FFH (calculated, not from the dash display).

With my Prius C, it is more like 47-53......but I don't really like it on the highway much.

 

If you think worrying about stuff like this makes you happy.............I hope you are right but most of the evidence says otherwise.

 

I think you got the best answers available back about post 8 of this thread.

Until you have a good opportunity to try out those suggestions (stop wasting gas when the car isn't moving), further wild speculation just isn't productive.


Edited by Easy Rider, 06 March 2015 - 11:00 AM.


#50 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 12:17 PM

I believe the EPA tests are run at 60-70º F. Assuming that Ford did them at 70 which is most advantageous, if you're driving around in the Great Lakes at 20, you can expect 10 mpg less due to temperature alone not to mention headwinds. Due to vector analysis 70% of all winds are headwinds.


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#51 OFFLINE   Automate

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 12:31 PM

Due to vector analysis 70% of all winds are headwinds.

Do you have a Internet reference for this?



#52 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 03:16 PM

I believe the EPA tests are run at 60-70º F. Assuming that Ford did them at 70 which is most advantageous, if you're driving around in the Great Lakes at 20, you can expect 10 mpg less due to temperature alone not to mention headwinds. Due to vector analysis 70% of all winds are headwinds.

 

Do you have a Internet reference for this?

It seems that is right flying a small  airplane, and is probably right driving too, I know it seems like it. LOL :shift:  :) 

 

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#53 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 07:22 PM

The vector of the car velocity adds to winds that are from the side but partially to the rear to make a crosswind that has a headwind component vector. The cars are designed to have the least drag with a directly ahead wind vector. They can have more drag with a slight crosswind component. There are even schemes to use four wheel steering to cock cars a few degrees into a wind vector that is lightly off center to reduce drag. That would look weird.


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#54 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 06 March 2015 - 11:52 PM

I bought my 2010 FFH on 7/09 so this is the sixth winter I along with others have been trying to assure first time hybrid owners there is nothing wrong with their cars. The problem is with the EPA tests, not the cars. Only a minority of drivers will drive in a manner similar to the tests and the tests failure to account for low winter temperatures makes it worse. The EPA tests are being upgraded but that takes time and even then they won't be perfect. The hybrid advantage over other cars evaporates at high speeds and low temperatures because the ICE is running to keep everything warm. The HVB is charged fully in a few minutes and after that the ICE is still running to warm up but it's way off it's efficient operating point then. The Prius has two 150 watt electric heaters to help with this. They also have an exhaust/engine coolant heat exchanger to warm up the engine faster. They used to have a thermos bottle that stored hot coolant for almost a day and then released it on the next start. Prius has the lions share of hybrid sales because everybody else is still playing catch-up in hybrid efficiency. Your FFH's get about 10 mpg less than Prii but you have a much nicer car.


Edited by lolder, 06 March 2015 - 11:53 PM.

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#55 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 07 March 2015 - 12:28 PM

I had a Gen 2 ppprius, and it was horrible with cross winds. It also had a nasty tendency to fishtail on curves. The OEM tires were the worst when it came to traction. Other than getting great MPG, I dont see any other reason to have one when the Fusion is so much more of a car, and gets good MPG. 

 

My first 13 FFH did have an issue, with all the driving and hybrid experience I have, not being able to hit the low predicted benchmark in it, I knew something was wrong with it. At that time it was rated at 47 MPG, so Realistically I was expected 38-43 MPG, and best I could get was 34, in Florida, in 70* temps.  The car I replaced it with, gets exactly what I expected out of it, 38-43, and since I know how to squeeze these cars, I can get these numbers, but new drivers will need to relax and take their time and get to know how to best drive these cars.  It doesnt happen on the first drive, so you see this a lot, my car isnt getting what it should.  There are so many factors involved with them, and once you understand them then you get a better understanding of why the car gets what it gets. 

 

Factors involved

Road conditions,  pavement plays a factor, new pavement will get better MPG than worn rough pavement

Traffic, flow of traffic, lights, speeds.

Weather, rain and snow will lower MPG quite a bit, even a damp road can lower it a few MPG. Temps play a huge part, ideal conditions are between 50 and 80 degrees. Between these temps the car performs the best as you dont have a cabin to heat or cool, and batteries work best between these temps. 

How you drive plays the largest part, Drive like a granny, or a speedster and you will not get the optimum MPG out of it. Moderate acceleration, steady speeds, not driving too fast, all play a part in good MPG.

Idling, any time the ICE runs with the car stationary, wastes gas. 


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#56 OFFLINE   md13ffhguy

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Posted 07 March 2015 - 11:32 PM

The car I replaced it with, gets exactly what I expected out of it, 38-43, and since I know how to squeeze these cars, I can get these numbers

Great post, but...

Don't kid yourself - that ain't squeezin'!

My wife is getting 43.2 since September (dash #) and she just drives it normal. The only thing she squeezes is me. ;)
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Posted 08 March 2015 - 01:24 PM

Temps in the low 60's today


And so was my milage!

Had to drive to the Home Depot, about a 28 mile round trip. On the way, I showed 58.1 coming home...60.3!

Just easy driving, in traffic along shopping center row.
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#58 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 09 March 2015 - 04:25 PM

Making sure I'm still on the same path though... it's not that the ICE running is burning fuel.  The same thing was happening in the Focus without the ICE occasionally turning off.  The bigger difference is that the ICE in the FFH is burning MORE fuel while idling than the Focus does.  Right?

Yes. It burns more gallons per hour as lolder said.


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#59 OFFLINE   CCalvinN

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 07:02 AM

Temps going up.  Disappointment going down.  This last tank of gas included several days where I was still remote starting it, but the majority was simply 'get in and drive'.  

 

457 Miles.  12.4 Gallons.  36.83 MPG!

 

I had to fill up after my trip from work, so I only had 3 miles between the gas station and my home.  According to the trip comptuer I got just over 56 mpg on that small leg of the journey!  


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#60 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 14 March 2015 - 09:54 AM

With the warmer temps yesterday I was seeing near 50 on some trips, for the most part yesterday I was getting the 43 I expected to get.  As your car breaks in more, and everything moves smoothly, the MPG will go up and without remote start in the winter, getting 38 should happen, like it does for mine.  Depends a lot on how cold, and if there is snow to drive through, as that will drop it quite a bit, so tank averages can fluctuate from low 30's to high 30's, but on average, 38 is where it lands.  


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