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Disappointing first fill up


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114 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 11:47 AM

Grill Covers will add up to 4mpg and speed up your warm up time, if you can figure out how to make them.  Driving style can also make a big difference in MPG's in City driving, with Temps in 20's I can still get 45-50mpg around town. :shift: :)     Paul

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Current Record:  12/30/2014  902.2 mi.  63.8 mpg  14.13  gal. (Actual GPS:  922 mi.  68 mpg  13.5 gal.








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#22 OFFLINE   GrySql

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 12:16 PM

The fuel flow above 40 mpg is very low . Little things have big effects. Headwinds cost 3 mpg per 10 mph. Noisy roads can cost a few mpg. Speed costs 6 mpg per 10 mph. Temperature costs 2 mpg per 10ºF. lower temperature. AC costs 1 to 10+ mpg. Wet roads cost 1-10 mpg.

 

If it's very cold and you're speeding against headwinds in the rain on a noisy road, you'll probably run out of gas 15 minutes after you fill it up.

 

Otherwise, you'll probably get in the 40's mpg.

 

People buy new car models usually in the Fall. That's when the weather turns adverse to good mileage. This mileage disappointment with hybrids in the Winter is legendary. Spring and improved driving habits brings much better results. Then you never have to add gas.

 

I might have exaggerated a little.

Lolder, this is one of your best, great post! 

Science and droll humor, my favorites...  :rating:


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#23 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 01:35 PM

After I made the "15 minutes" comment above, I read in USA Today that the 6.2 liter, 707 Hp Dodge.Hellcat can exhaust  it's 18.5 gal fuel tank in 13 minutes at full throttle and it's maximum 204 mph.


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#24 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 05:37 PM

WOW. 50miles on a tank of gas. Ouch! LOL

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#25 OFFLINE   Easy Rider

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 05:39 PM

Sounds a bit like the Winnebago I just got.

With a tail wind it MIGHT get 8.5 MPG. 



#26 ONLINE   murphy

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 06:14 PM

WOW. 50miles on a tank of gas. Ouch! LOL

Paul

That's about what the Nascar Sprint Car Series cars get.  They also need a new set of tires every time they fill up.



#27 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 03 March 2015 - 08:19 PM

That's about what the Nascar Sprint Car Series cars get.  They also need a new set of tires every time they fill up.

That's funny I thought they got 5mpg, maybe with restrictor plate. Daytona and Talladega, they could probably make it all the way on one set of tires, Atlanta is another story, maybe 50miles or so.  LOL :)


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Current Record:  12/30/2014  902.2 mi.  63.8 mpg  14.13  gal. (Actual GPS:  922 mi.  68 mpg  13.5 gal.


#28 OFFLINE   Waldo

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 09:18 AM

When they went to sign-off the Ford GT they had to run a high-speed tire test that basically said you had to run the tires at the vehicle top speed for 30 minutes.  Problem was the GT ran out of gas after 17 minutes.


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#29 OFFLINE   CCalvinN

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 09:35 AM

 

I think you're misunderstanding things a bit on this point.  The fuel burned at idle is only more than a normal car when it's actively charging the battery.  This extra fuel you "get back" by using the EV mode in the future.  Once the battery is full, the fuel consumed at idle won't be much different than a normal car.  But the same as a normal car means you are not taking advantage of the hybrid system, which means that it is bringing down your overall average.  Mathematically, when you are in the range of high MPGs, any part of your drive that is in the range of a "normal" vehicle will bring down the number much faster than it will bring down the number in a "normal" car.  In other words, you're not actually burning more fuel, you're just pulling down the average faster.

 

I guess I'll have to scratch off that first point then as I don't know why I'm getting lower fuel mileage.  

 

Let me see if I can at least get this point right.  Idling in a hybrid (or at least this hybrid) burns more fuel when it's charging the battery.  That extra fuel is mitigated somewhat as I'll get extra fuel efficiency out of the battery.  When it's not charging the battery it uses about the same (maybe a little more) fuel than a normal car when idling.  So on a tank by tank basis as opposed to a trip by trip basis there isn't a big impact to fuel efficiency from idling.  Right? 

 

I can appreciate that there are techniques (such as adding grille covers) that can get more fuel efficiency from this car.  But I'm not interested in squeezing out every bit of fuel efficiency out of this car.  Yet.  Right now I'm just concerned with comparing this car's fuel efficiency as I drive it to my previous car as I drove it.  And right now after a month of driving roughly the same amount and in roughly the same way (if idling isn't costing me the extra fuel) then this car is getting 10% less fuel efficiency when it's promoted as getting 10% better fuel efficiency.  


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#30 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 10:56 AM

 Remote start on these will eat up the fuel. I tried it and saw a huge difference myself. My dash told me 39 the pump told me 32. This was over a 3 week period of extreme cold, then I stopped doing it while it was still cold and the tank to pump difference changed to roughly 1 MPG difference.   Also in cold temps, the battery efficiency is way down until the cabin fully warms and the pack warms up, until then EV periods are very short, so even with the ICE charging up the HVB while remote started, the car wont use that energy very much until after you have driven quite a few miles.  In my case since the car is in a car port and essentially out in the cold, I can go 10 miles or more before I get full or near full EV out of it.  In fact the blue bar on the Empower display doesn't exist for the first 5-8 miles.  


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#31 OFFLINE   Easy Rider

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 11:25 AM

 

I guess I'll have to scratch off that first point then as I don't know why I'm getting lower fuel mileage.  

 

You are making this MUCH harder than it really IS.

 

If you "waste" a gallon of gas in a car that gets 10 MPG and has a BIG tank, the impact on your overall mileage won't look like that much; it might drop it to 9.9.

 

If you waste that same gallon of gas in a car that gets 50 MPG and has a small tank, the overall impact on your average mileage looks huge; maybe down to 40 or less.

 

In any given situation (might be some obscure exceptions), your car and engine is more efficient than any "normal" car on the road.........including the time spent letting it "idle" to warm up.  It might not look like it though because the change in numbers is bigger.

 

You are worrying too much.........like a lot of new hybrid owners.


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#32 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 02:50 PM

Your driving is mostly highway and in this very cold weather I would expect the 1000 lb. lighter Focus to get equally as good mileage as the FFH. You can not gauge the difference in even a 300+ mile tank with the extreme weather you have been having. Don't worry about it.


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#33 OFFLINE   corncobs

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 07:45 PM

 Remote start on these will eat up the fuel. I tried it and saw a huge difference myself. My dash told me 39 the pump told me 32. This was over a 3 week period of extreme cold, then I stopped doing it while it was still cold and the tank to pump difference changed to roughly 1 MPG difference.   Also in cold temps, the battery efficiency is way down until the cabin fully warms and the pack warms up, until then EV periods are very short, so even with the ICE charging up the HVB while remote started, the car wont use that energy very much until after you have driven quite a few miles.  In my case since the car is in a car port and essentially out in the cold, I can go 10 miles or more before I get full or near full EV out of it.  In fact the blue bar on the Empower display doesn't exist for the first 5-8 miles.  


Yours is parked "outside" correct so the HVB is likely to deep freeze over night every night.
When I picked up my FFH from my dealer on Monday after a few smaller fixes while I was out of town I had that same problem. It actually scared the sh** out of me since it would not go into EV mode even after the ICE was up to temp.

Because they did the emission recall update of the PCM I really thought something went wrong. Very slowly the blue frame started showing up but it would not stay in EV every little acceleration would kick in the ICE.

It took almost all the way to work before the behavior was somewhat back to normal.

I believe because she was sitting in the open for a few days the HVB temp went really low and it took some extra time for it to warm up again. Most definitely a scary situation but it's all back normal.
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#34 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 08:16 PM

Yep thats exactly what mine does. 


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#35 OFFLINE   CCalvinN

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 08:24 AM

You are making this MUCH harder than it really IS.

 

...

 

In any given situation (might be some obscure exceptions), your car and engine is more efficient than any "normal" car on the road.........including the time spent letting it "idle" to warm up.  It might not look like it though because the change in numbers is bigger.

 

You are worrying too much.........like a lot of new hybrid owners.

 

 

Your driving is mostly highway and in this very cold weather I would expect the 1000 lb. lighter Focus to get equally as good mileage as the FFH. You can not gauge the difference in even a 300+ mile tank with the extreme weather you have been having. Don't worry about it.

 

(emphasis is mine)

 

These two statements are exactly where my disappointment comes from, as it shows where my expectation gap is.  I'm not disappointed that I'm unable to achieve the advertised 41 mpg.  I would never expect to get that especially in the winter.  My point of comparison isn't what a FFH should get, or what it will get in the summer, or what other people do get.  I'm only comparing against what I used to get in my Focus.   Driving the same routes in the same extreme weather got me 32-34 mpg out of the Focus.  It's getting me 30 mpg in the FFH.  

 

I expected to get the same or slightly better mpg than the Focus. Anything above that would be icing on the cake.  But I'm not even getting that.   

 

 

 

 

 

I want to add one thing... beyond the mileage, I'm INCREDIBLY happy with Ginger.  Her ride is nice and smooth, her tech toys are better than what I had, her interior is nicer, she's bigger than what I'm used to, and is just overall a step up in driving experience.  I'm harping on this efficiency and trying to understand it better because it was the primary reason for purchasing it.  I just didn't want to take a 'step back' in mileage in order to upgrade to a nicer car.  


Edited by CCalvinN, 05 March 2015 - 08:28 AM.

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#36 OFFLINE   md13ffhguy

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 08:31 AM

Relax, and stop comparing apples and oranges. Fuel economy is best observed over the long haul. Let it warm up and see what that does to your average. If, over a period that includes an equal amount of warmer weather, your average meets or exceeds your expectations, will your cold weather performance even matter?
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#37 OFFLINE   Easy Rider

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 09:19 AM

  I'm harping on this efficiency and trying to understand it better because it was the primary reason for purchasing it.  I just didn't want to take a 'step back' in mileage in order to upgrade to a nicer car.  

 

Several of us have been trying to say this nicely already so maybe some different wording is needed.

 

Your expectations are unrealistic.  Simple as that.

 

A bigger car will almost NEVER get better mileage than a smaller and lighter "economy" model.

The bigger car weighs more and (probably) has a significantly higher aero drag.  Because of that, it likely has a bigger power plant.

 

Given your prime objective, you probably should have gone with the Focus hybrid or Cmax or PIP.

 

The situation IS what it IS.  Continuing to fret over it accomplishes nothing good.



#38 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 09:37 AM

Right now I'm just concerned with comparing this car's fuel efficiency as I drive it to my previous car as I drove it.  And right now after a month of driving roughly the same amount and in roughly the same way (if idling isn't costing me the extra fuel) then this car is getting 10% less fuel efficiency when it's promoted as getting 10% better fuel efficiency.  

And this is the issue. The window sticker MPG is not based on how you drive. It's based on the EPA test cycles. On the EPA test cycles the Fusion will use less fuel than the Focus. On your driving pattern the Fusion uses more gas than the Focus.

 

Idling is why you're getting such low MPG out of the Fusion. Stop idling the car and your MPG will be way better than the Focus.

 

These two statements are exactly where my disappointment comes from, as it shows where my expectation gap is.  I'm not disappointed that I'm unable to achieve the advertised 41 mpg.  I would never expect to get that especially in the winter.  My point of comparison isn't what a FFH should get, or what it will get in the summer, or what other people do get.  I'm only comparing against what I used to get in my Focus.   Driving the same routes in the same extreme weather got me 32-34 mpg out of the Focus.  It's getting me 30 mpg in the FFH.  

 

I expected to get the same or slightly better mpg than the Focus. Anything above that would be icing on the cake.  But I'm not even getting that.   

 

I want to add one thing... beyond the mileage, I'm INCREDIBLY happy with Ginger.  Her ride is nice and smooth, her tech toys are better than what I had, her interior is nicer, she's bigger than what I'm used to, and is just overall a step up in driving experience.  I'm harping on this efficiency and trying to understand it better because it was the primary reason for purchasing it.  I just didn't want to take a 'step back' in mileage in order to upgrade to a nicer car.  

The Fusion is much heavier than the Focus. This means it requires more energy to move it. At a sustained speed, say 75 MPH, the Fusion is going to require more energy to overcome aerodynamic drag & rolling resistance. The Focus will likely get better MPG at these speeds because it is smaller & lighter. The main advantage of a hybrid is being able to turn off the ICE at low speeds. But if you are cranking up the heat then the ICE is unable to turn off because it needs to burn fuel to heat the coolant to heat the cabin. The Fusion ICE burns fuel at idle at a high gallons per hour than the Focus. As lolder has explained many times before, the FFH Atkinson cycle ICE is designed to run at almost WOT all the time. This is how it becomes more efficient. It's also more efficient because it can work to keep the ICE in a narrowing operating range by using electric power to assist when there is a high power demand and by using the electric motors to store energy in the battery when power demand is low. However, when you spend a lot of time idling or at high speeds the benefit is negated.

 

 

Given your prime objective, you probably should have gone with the Focus hybrid or Cmax or PIP.

 

The situation IS what it IS.  Continuing to fret over it accomplishes nothing good.

What's a Focus Hybrid? How would the C-Max Hybrid perform any differently from the Fusion in this scenario?


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#39 OFFLINE   Easy Rider

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 01:00 PM

 

What's a Focus Hybrid? How would the C-Max Hybrid perform any differently from the Fusion in this scenario?

Guess my brain was asleep.

 

There isn't a Focus Hybrid ??  OK, substitute Prius.  My wife's C gets great mileage and rides better than you would think.

 

And the C-Max is not a plug-in model ??

Guess not.



#40 OFFLINE   Texasota

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Posted 05 March 2015 - 01:30 PM

And this is the issue. The window sticker MPG is not based on how you drive. It's based on the EPA test cycles. On the EPA test cycles the Fusion will use less fuel than the Focus. On your driving pattern the Fusion uses more gas than the Focus.

 

Idling is why you're getting such low MPG out of the Fusion. Stop idling the car and your MPG will be way better than the Focus.

I replaced my 2012 Ford Focus with a 2015 FFH.  My experience, so far, indicates that HB is correct.

 

I now have about 8000 miles on my FFH and the lifetime (hand calculated) MPG is 44.8 MPG. There is no way the average for my Focus ever came close to that and I drove the Focus as economically as I could (including limiting highway speed to 63 MPH). My Focus on a few rare occasions approached 44.8 MPG on the highway and the city driving for the Focus was far short of 44.8 MPG. The FFH blows it away in MPG, comfort, quietness and enjoyment.


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