FFH has a 14.1gal Fuel Tank

[Texasota]

I personally have seen, well, the Ford spec's say 104 mph is the FFH's top speed and I know that is not correct. I do admit that my mpg's suffered as a result of that 'emergency' maneuver and my Event Data Recorder was primed to slap my right foot.

I did not realize grey squirrels could fly, but apparently they do! ;)

[ptjones]

At 968 views it would look like a lot of members are interested how much their FFH Tank Actually holds. IMHO Merry Christmas everyone. :)

 

Paul

Edited December 25, 2014 by ptjones

[GrySql]

It is an interesting topic, no doubt about it.

PT, you just have the compelling urge of man to explore and to discover, the thrust of curiosity that leads men to try to go where no one has gone before.

[Easy Rider]

the thrust of curiosity that leads men to try to go where no one has gone before.

 

Yep. Right to the bottom of the gas tank. :)

[ptjones]

It is an interesting topic, no doubt about it.

PT, you just have the compelling urge of man to explore and to discover, the thrust of curiosity that leads men to try to go where no one has gone before.

Heading to FL for XMAS Vacation and may be able to break My old record and go more the 910mi. on a tank if it isn't to cold. Happy MPGing everyone. :) :shift:

 

Paul

[acdii]

Interesting topic, sure enjoyed the popcorn. For me, I have yet gotten to 12 gallons on a fill when "empty". It always winds up around 10 gallons used when DTE hits 0. I know! new thread! how many miles past 0 can YOU go! LOL

 

On the subject of drafting. You get diminishing returns the closer you get. I found 2 bars on ACC behind a flatbed truck, OR a motorhome pulling a car nets the best results while maintaining a safe distance. All the lead vehicle needs to do is break the airstream in front of you, and you stay out of the turbulence. Vans create too much turbulence at 2 bars, thats why I prefer flatbeds or tankers. Motorhomes pulling a car create airflows similar to flatbeds. I got some of my best MPG tracks following these types of vehicles, Safely.

 

As for MPG, too may people are fixated on MPG, and not gallons used. To me gallons used puts things in better perspective. Here's why.

 

My daily drive @ 40 MPG, uses about 12 gallons in the Fusion. Switch out the Fusion with the MKT @20 MPG, I now use 24 gallons. When the wife takes the car and I take the MKT, we both go the same direction, same amount of miles, but combined use 36 gallons of gas.

 

The Fusion saves me 12 gallons of gas per week. Carpooling saves me an additional 12 gallons of gas per week, in total, 24 gallons of gas saved per week. When gas was $3.50 a gallon that's $84 a week saved, or $4368.00 a year. It is also a reason I am not adamant on getting every last MPG out of the car, I set a goal of 38-43 MPG in the new Fusion, I get that when I drive it without special techniques, or unsafe driving practices like I posted way back when I had the BD and showed the video of what it took to get what my current one gets without trying. As long as I meet the 38-43 range, I know what my savings are, and am quite happy with the outcome, plus I am driving one of the best cars on the road short of a Tesla(BTW, did you guys see the video of the Tesla blowing away a 707HP Challenger?).

 

Its good to know that the stated tank capacity is actually a little lower than actual, however, the vast majority of owners will never get below empty, and based on how the fuel gauge and trip meters calculate fuel used, doubt they ever will use more than 12 gallons when past 0 DTE before filling. At least it isn't like the Flex where it has a saddle tank and on occasion the crossover pump fails to equalize the tank and the go from 1/4 tank to empty in a matter of a couple miles.

 

 

 

PS Waldo, You raced 13B's? So did I back in the early 80's in an RX4 wagon! My friend and I also balanced and ported a 13B and got it to run at 20K smooth as silk, at least until the seals gave out. We just had it wide open and had removed anything that could limit the speed. It was scary fun as we didn't know what might happen with it. Those were some fun engines to play with, we would rebuild them in the basement on a mile crate.

Edited January 20, 2015 by acdii

[Easy Rider]

 

 

As for MPG, too may people are fixated on MPG, and not gallons used. To me gallons used puts things in better perspective. Here's why.

 

It is really the same thing. It's all in the math.

 

In the equation miles/gallons = MPG, if you keep one factor constant, like you did with "miles" then the only variable left is "gallons".

Substituting both variables gives a result that everybody can compare.

 

It's all in the math.

You can't compare just "gallons used" if one person drives 20 miles a day and another drives 200.

[acdii]

You missed the point. MPG is only good when comparing how far you can go on a gallon. Gallons used puts it into the monetary perspective. You can easily equate 1 gallon of gas, to a price point, where MPG you now have to divide your miles driven, by MPG to arrive at gallons used before you can get to the price point.

 

 

To the layman, driving 400 miles and using 20 gallons equates to a cost of $70, where the other driver drove the same distance and used 40 gallons and cost him $140. Simple easy math when using gallons vs MPG.

[mwr]

You missed the point. MPG is only good when comparing how far you can go on a gallon. Gallons used puts it into the monetary perspective. You can easily equate 1 gallon of gas, to a price point, where MPG you now have to divide your miles driven, by MPG to arrive at gallons used before you can get to the price point.

 

 

To the layman, driving 400 miles and using 20 gallons equates to a cost of $70, where the other driver drove the same distance and used 40 gallons and cost him $140. Simple easy math when using gallons vs MPG.

I had described my new FFH to my sister, incluiding its mpg, but she said it didn't hit home until I said I drove 500 miles on a tank and then filled it with 11 gallons. She definitely related to that.

[Texasota]

Gallons used puts it into the monetary perspective. You can easily equate 1 gallon of gas, to a price point, where MPG you now have to divide your miles driven, by MPG to arrive at gallons used before you can get to the price point.

 

To the layman, driving 400 miles and using 20 gallons equates to a cost of $70, where the other driver drove the same distance and used 40 gallons and cost him $140. Simple easy math when using gallons vs MPG.

This is the common sense view. For most people it is about the impact to their wallet. However, much of this thread had nothing to do with common sense or safe driving. It was mostly about a game or personal challenge to achieve an arbitrary number of miles per tank. OCD to the extreme.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Texasota

[Easy Rider]

 

To the layman, driving 400 miles and using 20 gallons equates to a cost of $70, where the other driver drove the same distance and used 40 gallons and cost him $140. Simple easy math when using gallons vs MPG.

Too simplistic.

It depends on WHAT you are trying to compare.

And for it to work, the distance must be the same.

 

Since most comparisons are NOT over the same distance, MPG is still more meaningful.

Otherwise you have to do some math to achieve the same distance first and that's more complicated and not easier.

 

A "miles per gallon" figure actually contains more information because knowing one you can easily figure the other.

 

Actually I think "miles per dollar" is in some ways a better comparison as it can automatically factor in things like electricity being used as fuel.

[TonyHzNV]

Actually I think "miles per dollar" is in some ways a better comparison as it can automatically factor in things like electricity being used as fuel.

It is So simple if you just use Fuelly. It tells you your Best MPG, Last MPG, and Avg MPG as well as how many miles it has tracked and finally your cost/mile. (Mine is currently $.084/mile). No figuring, no calculating, no guessing......simple. USE FUELLY! :)

[hybridbear]

Actually I think "miles per dollar" is in some ways a better comparison as it can automatically factor in things like electricity being used as fuel.

You aren't the only one: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1096341_new-metric-for-car-efficiency-miles-per-dollar-spent-on-energy

[acdii]

Or I can drive all week, 500 miles on 10 gallons of gas. Cost me $20. When quoting MPG, the difference between 43 MPG and 48MPG may seem like a lot, until you see how many gallons are used, then the difference is insignificant. Thats where gallons used plays into it. The Wallet speaks louder than anything.

 

When you get down to 18 MPG vs 20 MPG, while 2 MPG may not seem like much, in gallons it is quite a bit. 400/18 =22.2, 400/20=20, that is a 2.22 gallon difference. Quite a bit different than say.34 gallons in the above example

[Easy Rider]

It is true that some people don't grasp various different concepts......like simple math.......and "explaining" it to them in different terms can be very effective.

If that was what you were trying to get at, I agree.

 

I do not agree that talking about fuel efficiency in "gallons used" is a good thing on a routine basis.

[Texasota]

Actually I think "miles per dollar" is in some ways a better comparison as it can automatically factor in things like electricity being used as fuel.

 

The EPA also agrees. They provide that on the EPA window sticker (lower left corner):

 

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=bt1

[Easy Rider]

 

The EPA also agrees. They provide that on the EPA window sticker (lower left corner):

 

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=bt1

I think the sticker also has "estimated fuel cost per year"........which pretty much NOBODY looks at.......but that might be an easier figure to use for comparison across models.

And would be a figure that most wouldn't later be disappointed with because they didn't achieve it. ;)

[Waldo]

Just wanted to bring up this old thread to add some new information. I was just talking to a real live (former) fuel engineer who gave me a little insight into how the tank capacity really works.

 

The correct answer is that the FFH actually has a 16.5 gallon fuel tank. The tank itself is the same as the base Fusion, however the pressure relief valve is calibrated to a fill of only 13.5 gallons so that the extra 3 gallons is not counted in the vehicle weight, allowing the FFH to slip under the EPA weight classes.

 

The pressure relief valve is a mechanical valve that is permanently attached inside the tank. When the tank is less than "full", the valve is open and allows the pressure in the tank to be relieved as temperatures change and so on. As the fuel fills up,, eventually it hits the valve and the valve closes, preventing the air from escaping and thus creating pressure inside the tank. This pressure then prevents any further fuel from entering the tank, which is then what shuts off your fuel pump. Now there are still some very tiny holes that do allow the pressure to very slowly bleed out, so in theory if you wanted to spend an hour or two continuously pumping fuel into the tank, then when the pump shuts off, wait a couple minutes, then pump again and so on, you would eventually be able to put 16.5 gallons in.

 

Now the problem with this overfilling is that until that extra fuel is burned off, the valve is still submerged and closed. This means that only the very small holes can vent any pressure build up. That's probably not enough to vent the pressure increase that would come from a normal heating cycle, which would mean the pressure would build in the tank and that would try to push the fuel out, into places like the filler nozzle or the evaporator canister (like what I said back in post #5). That kind of thing would be bad and dangerous, so don't do this!

 

But if one really wanted to hit that 800, 900 maybe even 1000 mile "club", one would only need to swap in the fuel tank from a regular FWD Fusion that is likely exactly the same except for it's location of the pressure relief valve (no guarantees that things like the sending unit are the same). Also not sure how the fuel gauge calibration would work on a 16.5 tank, it might still show full at 13.5 and above, or it might be able to adjust to the larger volume.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Waldo

[lolder]

Very interesting post! Once I got my 2010 FFH, I stopped any further filling after the first pump shutoff. Those cars overflow goes out on the ground to the rear of the tire. It's probably not a good Idea to try to "top off" any of these cars unless you are trying to escape nuclear fall-out or something like that.

[ptjones]

Just wanted to bring up this old thread to add some new information. I was just talking to a real live (former) fuel engineer who gave me a little insight into how the tank capacity really works.

 

The correct answer is that the FFH actually has a 16.5 gallon fuel tank. The tank itself is the same as the base Fusion, however the pressure relief valve is calibrated to a fill of only 13.5 gallons so that the extra 3 gallons is not counted in the vehicle weight, allowing the FFH to slip under the EPA weight classes.

 

The pressure relief valve is a mechanical valve that is permanently attached inside the tank. When the tank is less than "full", the valve is open and allows the pressure in the tank to be relieved as temperatures change and so on. As the fuel fills up,, eventually it hits the valve and the valve closes, preventing the air from escaping and thus creating pressure inside the tank. This pressure then prevents any further fuel from entering the tank, which is then what shuts off your fuel pump. Now there are still some very tiny holes that do allow the pressure to very slowly bleed out, so in theory if you wanted to spend an hour or two continuously pumping fuel into the tank, then when the pump shuts off, wait a couple minutes, then pump again and so on, you would eventually be able to put 16.5 gallons in.

 

Now the problem with this overfilling is that until that extra fuel is burned off, the valve is still submerged and closed. This means that only the very small holes can vent any pressure build up. That's probably not enough to vent the pressure increase that would come from a normal heating cycle, which would mean the pressure would build in the tank and that would try to push the fuel out, into places like the filler nozzle or the evaporator canister (like what I said back in post #5). That kind of thing would be bad and dangerous, so don't do this!

 

But if one really wanted to hit that 800, 900 maybe even 1000 mile "club", one would only need to swap in the fuel tank from a regular FWD Fusion that is likely exactly the same except for it's location of the pressure relief valve (no guarantees that things like the sending unit are the same). Also not sure how the fuel gauge calibration would work on a 16.5 tank, it might still show full at 13.5 and above, or it might be able to adjust to the larger volume.

I didn't over fill my FFH, no fuel came out of filler tube. The car wasn't level when I filled up so the first click with high speed setting was 13.3gal. The next was 13.8gal at slow speed and then a couple more to 14.1gal. I probably could have squeezed another 1/10th or so. Total time maybe a minute at most was involved, not an "hour or two". ;) I think most members would consider this a normal fill up. :)

 

Very interesting post! Once I got my 2010 FFH, I stopped any further filling after the first pump shutoff. Those cars overflow goes out on the ground to the rear of the tire. It's probably not a good Idea to try to "top off" any of these cars unless you are trying to escape nuclear fall-out or something like that.

I as well as others have experienced early pump shut offs all the time just like I did on this tank caused from high speed fuel delivery and non level surface. I think it is unwise to assume your tank is full on the first click when it could be half full and then run out of gas because of it. ;) You should do at least two or more clicks to verify that the tank is full like you planned. :)

 

Paul

[lolder]

Or you could fuel at a lower rate.

[Waldo]

I didn't over fill my FFH, no fuel came out of filler tube. The car wasn't level when I filled up so the first click with high speed setting was 13.3gal. The next was 13.8gal at slow speed and then a couple more to 14.1gal. I probably could have squeezed another 1/10th or so. Total time maybe a minute at most was involved, not an "hour or two". ;) I think most members would consider this a normal fill up. :)

 

 

I guess it depends on what you consider "overfill". To me, once that pressure relief valve has clicked closed, that's full. Now certainly it can close a bit early when you're not level and when fuel is sloshing around, so I usually go one more click. Usually that's only about 0.2 gallons or so for me. But my point is that your number of 14.1 is just an arbitrary number, it's just the point when you decided to stop. You could have put in 1/10th more, you could have put in 2/10th more, in fact if you were patient enough, you could have put 2.4gallons more and it would not have leaked out the filler tube. Bottom line is if you put 14.1 in (and assuming there was nothing still in there that wasn't picked up), then you had to burn off 0.6 gallons before that pressure relief valve opened up again. During that time if you had happened to put your car under conditions where the fuel tank could have built up pressure, the only way to relieve that pressure would have been to push those 0.6 gallons out the filler neck or into the evap tubing. Now I'm sure with ~2.5 gallons of air in there it would take some pretty extreme conditions to actually cause that much pressure change, but the point is putting 14.1 gallons in is starting to use up the safety margins designed into the system.

[Texasota]

 

Bottom line is if you put 14.1 in (and assuming there was nothing still in there that wasn't picked up), then you had to burn off 0.6 gallons before that pressure relief valve opened up again. During that time if you had happened to put your car under conditions where the fuel tank could have built up pressure, the only way to relieve that pressure would have been to push those 0.6 gallons out the filler neck or into the evap tubing. Now I'm sure with ~2.5 gallons of air in there it would take some pretty extreme conditions to actually cause that much pressure change, but the point is putting 14.1 gallons in is starting to use up the safety margins designed into the system.

 

Waldo, thanks very much for posting this information. I now have a better understanding of how the FFH's fuel tank works. I will be changing my habits when refueling (max of 1 extra click).

 

This discussion has me now wondering if a nose high or tail high incline while refueling results in more fuel in the tank? I am guessing nose high allows more fuel into the tank assuming the filler tube enters the forward half of the tank (only speculation on my part). If my guess is correct, then I will probably avoid the "extra click" when the nose is high.

[ptjones]

Well it seems it is time to talk to the Experts at my FORD Dealership Service Dept.. I explain what I did in this thread and they agreed with my conclusions, they would consider this a normal fill up and the actual usable tank would be 14.1 gal. The 13.5 gal. in OM is a min. value. :)

 

Paul

Edited May 19, 2016 by ptjones

[md13ffhguy]

Really interesting info, Waldo - thanks!!! Explains a lot of the variance we see. Appreciate you taking the time to post and explain it so nicely.