Buying used FFH

[lsherlockl]

Went out and test drove a handful of cars, and have settled into the FFH pretty solidly.

 

My question is if im going out and looking at used ones, what should I look for and look out for. Since the 47mpg "error" the used marked seems pretty good buyers market as alot of people traded in or sold their vehicles. I know I read a bit about the early 13's and the moonroof button thing as sign for earlier more problematic models, but do you want the real buttons or the "touch" ones? never really figured that one out. I have been considering a nice "looking" (from listing) 13' FFH SE 10k mi, deep impact blue, dune interior at ~$23k is very enticing compared to starting prices on new vehicles (which ruled them out of my search sadly) what should i be looking for exaclty when checking for quality. As a first "new' as in within the decade and first major purchase I really don't want to get a lemon.

 

Is there any advice for looking at used hybrids so you don't end up looking clueless. I assume all standard stuff applies, go over trim with/interior fine tooth comb spacing and gaps, noises rattles, check underside/engine compartment for rust etc. Test all advertised features.

 

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

[hybridbear]

You can use etis.ford.com to see the build date. The Job 1 cars have the touch sensitive buttons, Job 2 cars have physical buttons.

 

Do a test drive on routes that you normally drive and see what the MPG is.

[lsherlockl]

You can use etis.ford.com to see the build date. The Job 1 cars have the touch sensitive buttons, Job 2 cars have physical buttons.

 

Do a test drive on routes that you normally drive and see what the MPG is.

So is this good or bad one?

Build Date: 09.01.2013

 

 

Thanks!

 

And sadly is not close enough to run my normal route due to wi spacing of dealers and locations of used hybrids. But I'm planing on trying to do an extended drive over highway/city to simulate normal commute.

 

Is there anything that i have to be afraid of like certain ones getting way less mpg? or is any of that mostly driver related? (i guess mfg warranty is valid still but avoiding hassle)

[GrySql]

So is this good or bad one?

Build Date: 09.01.2013

 

 

Thanks!

 

And sadly is not close enough to run my normal route due to wi spacing of dealers and locations of used hybrids. But I'm planing on trying to do an extended drive over highway/city to simulate normal commute.

 

Is there anything that i have to be afraid of like certain ones getting way less mpg? or is any of that mostly driver related? (i guess mfg warranty is valid still but avoiding hassle)

That build date should have most of the early problems worked out but who can say what the previous owner did?

Look under the car too, check for collision repair paint overspray on the underbody, inside the fenders, door jams and engine bay.

Any reputable Dealer should not sell the car unless they have repaired any Recall or other Ford warranty bulletins that pertain to it.

 

Remember, in the very cold weather in your area the mpg's are going to be lower than in temperate weather.

[acdii]

Now is not a very good time to test drive a Hybrid since cold weather and winter blend fuels tend to return lower than you expect MPG. However, if the original owner and dealer have not done a reset on the trips and other screens, you can get a good idea on what the car has been doing, especially the lifetime history. The one you looked up was built Jan 9th, and most cars built at or after that date have been pretty good, if it was built in 2012, I would be leery of it, especially if it was built in October of 2012, thats the month a good majority of cars that were bad in the MPG category were built. As mentioned Etis will show if there are any outstanding notices not applied and should be.

[corncobs]

So is this good or bad one? Build Date: 09.01.2013

 

 

Thanks!

 

And sadly is not close enough to run my normal route due to wi spacing of dealers and locations of used hybrids. But I'm planing on trying to do an extended drive over highway/city to simulate normal commute.

 

Is there anything that i have to be afraid of like certain ones getting way less mpg? or is any of that mostly driver related? (i guess mfg warranty is valid still but avoiding hassle)

Did you Americanize the date or is that straight from ETIS which would be European date format? If straight from ETIS it would IIRC correctly indicate a Job1 model which seemed to have more random problems that Job2 as mentioned before.

 

Again IIRC the Job2 started rolling out some time in Feb of 2013.

 

There could be nothing wrong with the one you have laid your eyes on but its worth a closer look.

[lsherlockl]

was just pulled straight from it, so europe then.

 

 

Thanks for all the information. Ill pull like a Carfax or similar report. I pulled basic ones linked from dealer, displayed no accident/collision damage, but still no harm in looking.

 

I will keep everything in mind posed above thanks!

 

Good point on winter (today is like 14 and not even thanksgiving yet) what would one expect for winter MPG, as a hybrid noob too? like ~37-38 mebbe

[LEM]

I just checked the prices for a new 2015 FFH SE and it is $27,615.

If I were you, I would save a little bit more and get a new one. That way you don't have to worry about all the problems

that may arise with a used car... You would also be able to enjoy a full warranty.

 

The MSRP of my 2013 FFH Titanium car was $37,715 and I was able to get it for $36,000 OTD. Maybe with some negotiation and shopping around you could get something even cheaper than that.

Edited November 18, 2014 by LEM

[md13ffhguy]

There are probably also some deals to be had on leftover 2014 model year inventory.

[tr7driver]

Search Cars.com and Autotrader for unsold 2013 or 2014 cars. With the current discounts, 0% financing low gas prices, there are some great deals out there, but you have to ask/push for them. I imagine you can get one new for close to the price of the used one you are looking at, with a full warranty period, if you spend some time shopping around. You might have to travel. Also, you might consider a c-max or a fusion energi if you can spare the trunk room, there are even deeper discounts on the left over energi models that, with the tax breaks, can work out costing less than a standard hybrid.

 

I started by sending out emails to about 6 dealers listing them and asking for $10,000 under invoice on a 2013 and ended up with several dealers calling me back with even better offers after they initially said no and I told them I had received offers and was now evaluating the cars for color/equipment. I ended up with a fully loaded new 2013 C-max energi with 120 miles on it, never titled, for almost 12,000 under invoice (Plus a 4K+ tax credit). I remember at least 2 dealers in Wisconsin that had 2013's in stock.

 

One dealer called my bluff and told me to shove it after about 6 emails and 2 phone calls; they still have the 2013 fusion energi listed for sale. I guess they are pretty proud of it, but they helped me thicken my skin.

Edited November 19, 2014 by tr7driver

[jeff_h]

So is this good or bad one?

Build Date: 09.01.2013

 

There were several of us on the forum in late 2012 and early 2013 (many have since gotten their cars and drifted away, some still regulars) who were just getting their cars or had theirs on order. My 2013 FFH was built in Dec 2012 right near the end of Job 1 for SE Hybrids. Then (IIRC, thinking back to our forum posts from back then) in January 2013 Job 2 for the SE Hybrids started, then Feb 2013 the Fusion Energi production started, and in March 2013 the Titanium Hybrid production started (I had my SE Hybrid but also had a Titanium Hybrid ordered since Nov 2012 and later gave up on it and it was sold as dealer stock). So with an SE Hybrid with build date of January 2013 that 'should' be Job 2 with the physical buttons and some of the early Job 1 quirks (such as the headlight replacement thing, I think that was 12C27 or something like that) had been worked out. What is the VIN for this car? It would be interesting to see what options it has, and also see which field service actions were done...

 

If it were me, when I got to the car I would first scroll with the top left control and see what the lifetime average says -- I sold my 2013 FFH at Carmax in Dec 2013 with 35k miles and never reset the lifetime average and it said 50.9 MPG. So if I checked another 2013 FFH like this I would check the lifetime MPG and see the MPG and how many miles were in that 'lifetime'... if the lifetime reflects as many (or almost as many) miles as the odometer then you have a pretty accurate picture of what the previous owner got for MPG, and that could be really good like mine had, or could be not-so-good like acdii's first FFH had. If the lifetime was recently reset, that could be just inadvertent but also could be someone who wanted to erase a long-standing low-MPG issue (where the previous owner did what acdii did and moved on) and maybe opting for a new 2015 or clearance 2014 would be a better move.

[lsherlockl]

 

There were several of us on the forum in late 2012 and early 2013 (many have since gotten their cars and drifted away, some still regulars) who were just getting their cars or had theirs on order. My 2013 FFH was built in Dec 2012 right near the end of Job 1 for SE Hybrids. Then (IIRC, thinking back to our forum posts from back then) in January 2013 Job 2 for the SE Hybrids started, then Feb 2013 the Fusion Energi production started, and in March 2013 the Titanium Hybrid production started (I had my SE Hybrid but also had a Titanium Hybrid ordered since Nov 2012 and later gave up on it and it was sold as dealer stock). So with an SE Hybrid with build date of January 2013 that 'should' be Job 2 with the physical buttons and some of the early Job 1 quirks (such as the headlight replacement thing, I think that was 12C27 or something like that) had been worked out. What is the VIN for this car? It would be interesting to see what options it has, and also see which field service actions were done...

 

If it were me, when I got to the car I would first scroll with the top left control and see what the lifetime average says -- I sold my 2013 FFH at Carmax in Dec 2013 with 35k miles and never reset the lifetime average and it said 50.9 MPG. So if I checked another 2013 FFH like this I would check the lifetime MPG and see the MPG and how many miles were in that 'lifetime'... if the lifetime reflects as many (or almost as many) miles as the odometer then you have a pretty accurate picture of what the previous owner got for MPG, and that could be really good like mine had, or could be not-so-good like acdii's first FFH had. If the lifetime was recently reset, that could be just inadvertent but also could be someone who wanted to erase a long-standing low-MPG issue (where the previous owner did what acdii did and moved on) and maybe opting for a new 2015 or clearance 2014 would be a better move.

 

Thanks good thoughts

 

VIN of the one i was eyeballing is: 3FA6P0LU5DR223280, Leather, Tech, driver assis (lane deally), moonroof 10k miles

Listed at 23700, would attempt to negotiate to less than 23000 out the door (tax title paperwork) fits the low end KBB value then. Ill try and check the lifetime mpg.

 

There is also a 2014 i found around but it does have a higher starting price and less features, but may come down no one can punish you for making an offer anyhow

 

 

In reguards to TR7, fair enough idea

 

Energy is considered, like 2 ones around starting at 26k arguable you could negotiate down (i dont think they move off the lot as fast as a hybrid, though probably have a whole separate set of issues to look for.). But unsure at lack of trunk, distance driving mpg (or lower highway rating. like 2-3x a month for the next two years i drive like 200 mi down to visit GF on weekends) and no spare whatsoever (hybrid you can like aftermarket one in there peace of mind)

 

 

And honestly thanks for all the input it helps immensly. Communities like you are a valuable knowledge base for noobs like me. Many traps i feel have been prevented so thanks again!

[Waldo]

From what I can tell on that one, it was originally ordered by Avis, but was then re-tagged as a "damaged unit" and sold off by Ford at auction. So if it wasn't even good enough for Avis when new, then it's probably one you should stay away from.

[lsherlockl]

hrmm i guesss i used a not as good Vin lookup place. Listed it sold at auction as manufactured vehicle. What site did you use to find that? should really probably find a decent service and pay being that its a sizable investment

[jeff_h]

Here's the window sticker, note on the 2013 models if 'Daytime Running Lights' is listed then it's a fleet vehicle as that was the only way to get DRLs on a 2013, unless purchasing in Canada but that would have a different format for the sticker. Note the annotation of 'damaged vehicle' and shipped to auction company.

 

This is one that could be had for a good price but it may turn out to be too much of a 'bargain', so like Waldo said, probably best to steer clear of this one.

 

[lsherlockl]

good lord am I blind... thanks! dohy

 

 

did some research on that, thats really a tricky thing to look out for thanks!

 

So basically damage in transit occurred, and was repaired by ford and sold as new at auction. I wonder how many "new" cars on lots have that? (dosn't show up on vin lookup because there was no claim against vin dirty rotten trick)

 

suddenly lost alot of value in my book :p

 

 

Side note looked around to see if there are any 13' energi's left on lots around, there's a couple and actually if you can haggle them down enough, it just "might" be possible with the 4k tax credit. still not sure how much i like the concept i have 2 years still of more distance driving (43mi there and back) before moving closer to work. and trunk woes.

 

 

Also noob question again but whats a fleet vehicle (is that like enterprise/rental etc?) and just for understanding sake, if i were to try and piece together what happened: "fleet" buys car gets put on train to ship gets damaged, ford takes it back gives fleet new one, ford repairs, and sells at auction as new because repair fufilled 2 conditions for being sold as new (<1k dmg, no core damage or significant panel damage), dealer purchsed, dealer sold, buyer traded in.

 

Sorry just trying to take my best stab to make sure i know how to decode these stickers and Vin look-ups properly

 

Thanks again!

[hybridbear]

Side note looked around to see if there are any 13' energi's left on lots around, there's a couple and actually if you can haggle them down enough, it just "might" be possible with the 4k tax credit. still not sure how much i like the concept i have 2 years still of more distance driving (43mi there and back) before moving closer to work. and trunk woes.

 

The Energi performs basically the same as the hybrid in long distance driving. I see no decrease in MPG. In fact, long trips use less gas since I'm able to use power from the wall through the HVB for part of the trip. If you're traveling to visit your GF you could likely plug in the Energi there to a 120V outlet and then ~20 of the 43 miles each direction could be on electric power. I recently haggled my way to a great deal on an Energi, check out this thread. I can usually get about 3-4 MPGe better than I got in straight MPG in the hybrid on longer distance trips. If I remove the electricity from the equation then the MPG jump is about 4-5 MPG higher than in the hybrid. Plus for local driving we can use no gas at all. You can click on my Fuelly signature for stats from our first couple Energi tanks. Other Energi owners track MPGe in their Fuelly signature and many include comments on Fuelly about how they're calculating those numbers. Check out the Fusion Energi Forum for more info. I'd highly recommend the Energi. The trunk is smaller, but we usually just fold down the back seats and use that space to haul stuff. Or we drive our other car to haul stuff.

Edited November 19, 2014 by hybridbear

[murphy]

If you don't have rear seat passengers, the rear seat backs can be folded down to give a lot more storage room.

[lsherlockl]

 

The Energi performs basically the same as the hybrid in long distance driving. I see no decrease in MPG. In fact, long trips use less gas since I'm able to use power from the wall through the HVB for part of the trip. If you're traveling to visit your GF you could likely plug in the Energi there to a 120V outlet and then ~20 of the 43 miles each direction could be on electric power. I recently haggled my way to a great deal on an Energi, check out this thread. I can usually get about 3-4 MPGe better than I got in straight MPG in the hybrid on longer distance trips. If I remove the electricity from the equation then the MPG jump is about 4-5 MPG higher than in the hybrid. Plus for local driving we can use no gas at all. You can click on my Fuelly signature for stats from our first couple Energi tanks. Other Energi owners track MPGe in their Fuelly signature and many include comments on Fuelly about how they're calculating those numbers. Check out the Fusion Energi Forum for more info. I'd highly recommend the Energi. The trunk is smaller, but we usually just fold down the back seats and use that space to haul stuff. Or we drive our other car to haul stuff.

 

 

Man epic deal you got thanks for the link

 

Okay let me outline my driving breifly... Weekdays 43 mi to work 43 mi back, about every other weekend about 200mi down sw corner of state, 200mi back (till summer of 16') After summer of 16' will be like 4mi to work 4 mi back, and your usual run around town for groceries ocasional trip back home (43mi one)

 

Also how do you get better MPG distance trips? isnt the FFE < FFH when it comes to MPG due to weight or does the "free" 20 miles of electric come into play?

 

Looking around there don't seem to be any titanium's left around plenty of SE's but looks like they are stuck in bigger citys/dealerships may give it a shot, you think i could get one down to the 23k mark after tax rebate? (sadly WI has no state incentive :( weh)

 

 

 

Still unsure on storage yet? want to be sure and be practical, because yeah shooting 10 yr lifespan want to make sure its practical, and "family" practicle to a point at least. But if i can get one down to 23 im pretty sure i would pull the trigger

[hybridbear]

Man epic deal you got thanks for the link

 

Okay let me outline my driving breifly... Weekdays 43 mi to work 43 mi back, about every other weekend about 200mi down sw corner of state, 200mi back (till summer of 16') After summer of 16' will be like 4mi to work 4 mi back, and your usual run around town for groceries ocasional trip back home (43mi one)

 

Also how do you get better MPG distance trips? isnt the FFE < FFH when it comes to MPG due to weight or does the "free" 20 miles of electric come into play?

 

Looking around there don't seem to be any titanium's left around plenty of SE's but looks like they are stuck in bigger citys/dealerships may give it a shot, you think i could get one down to the 23k mark after tax rebate? (sadly WI has no state incentive :( weh)

 

Still unsure on storage yet? want to be sure and be practical, because yeah shooting 10 yr lifespan want to make sure its practical, and "family" practicle to a point at least. But if i can get one down to 23 im pretty sure i would pull the trigger

The better MPG is because of the 20 miles of electricity thrown in there. MPGe factors in that energy, MPG ignores electricity from the battery. 2013s allow you to display MPGe or MPG on the car displays. 2014+ models only show MPG on the dash.

 

Is there an outlet at work? All you'd need to charge at work is a 120V outlet, and permission to charge. You'd use less than $1 of electricity per day.

 

You could always test drive a 2014 or 2015 Energi that's near you and then possibly buy one of the leftover 2013s. I see a handful of Energi Titaniums leftover when doing a search on cars.com.There are 2 leftover 2013 Energi SEs here in the Minneapolis area. There's one at Havill-Spoerl in SE Wisconsin too. They are a very EV friendly dealer. They are one of the top selling Focus Electric dealers in the country because they heavily promote EVs to their customers. At least 3 dealership employees personally own Focus Electrics. A number of Focus Electric Forum members have bought from them and have been very happy. There are also two Energi SEs in Madison, WI. Not sure what your location is in Wisconsin, but we bought our Energi from Scaffidi Motors in Stevens Point, about a 220 mile drive from home.

[lsherlockl]

The better MPG is because of the 20 miles of electricity thrown in there. MPGe factors in that energy, MPG ignores electricity from the battery. 2013s allow you to display MPGe or MPG on the car displays. 2014+ models only show MPG on the dash.

 

Is there an outlet at work? All you'd need to charge at work is a 120V outlet, and permission to charge. You'd use less than $1 of electricity per day.

 

You could always test drive a 2014 or 2015 Energi that's near you and then possibly buy one of the leftover 2013s. I see a handful of Energi Titaniums leftover when doing a search on cars.com.There are 2 leftover 2013 Energi SEs here in the Minneapolis area. There's one at Havill-Spoerl in SE Wisconsin too. They are a very EV friendly dealer. They are one of the top selling Focus Electric dealers in the country because they heavily promote EVs to their customers. At least 3 dealership employees personally own Focus Electrics. A number of Focus Electric Forum members have bought from them and have been very happy. There are also two Energi SEs in Madison, WI. Not sure what your location is in Wisconsin, but we bought our Energi from Scaffidi Motors in Stevens Point, about a 220 mile drive from home.

 

Makes sense, i wonder what the turning point in range is (ie how many miles before its "trip" is less than the FFH mpg).

 

Yeha i'm looking at Madison and fort Atkinson ones. I'm kinda by Appleton fox valley area so even down to there is almost 2 hrs. Actually testing a used titanium energi in a few minutes, see what kind of a price they offer (has to be less than the 30k-4k tax credit) may be worth the thought. I hope they have it charged, really want to test like all the modes. Ill post up my after thoughts

 

EDIT: missprint so sad day there

Edited November 20, 2014 by lsherlockl

[hybridbear]

 

Makes sense, i wonder what the turning point in range is (ie how many miles before its "trip" is less than the FFH mpg).

 

Yeha i'm looking at Madison and fort Atkinson ones. I'm kinda by Appleton fox valley area so even down to there is almost 2 hrs. Actually testing a used titanium energi in a few minutes, see what kind of a price they offer (has to be less than the 30k-4k tax credit) may be worth the thought. I hope they have it charged, really want to test like all the modes. Ill post up my after thoughts

 

EDIT: missprint so sad day there

What's the misprint?

 

I'm not sure that Energi owners have found the Energi to have worse MPG in hybrid mode than the FFH. If anything, the Energi has more potential to get better MPG even on long highway drives since it can do more regen down mountains etc with the larger battery. The Energi has a lower EPA sticker MPG because Ford tested the C-Max Energi and then applied those results to the Fusion Energi since they have the same powertrain and are in the same vehicle class. This was accepted under EPA rules since the C-Max was expected to be the higher selling vehicle.

[lsherlockl]

What's the misprint?

 

I'm not sure that Energi owners have found the Energi to have worse MPG in hybrid mode than the FFH. If anything, the Energi has more potential to get better MPG even on long highway drives since it can do more regen down mountains etc with the larger battery. The Energi has a lower EPA sticker MPG because Ford tested the C-Max Energi and then applied those results to the Fusion Energi since they have the same powertrain and are in the same vehicle class. This was accepted under EPA rules since the C-Max was expected to be the higher selling vehicle.

 

The used one i jsut got back from not test driving. it was not an energi just a FFH Ti. So downer there.

 

What is a reasonable, bot not uber low-ball offer would you say on like this guy http://kayserford.net/Madison/For-Sale/New/Ford/Fusion/2013-Energi-SE-White-Car/20955334/ ? (mind in WI we only get 4k fed tax cred)

 

Its madison so not quite small town, sadly only ones around are madison, fort, then over in Minneapolis. methinks that sneaking a long on the lot energi is not going to happen. Or any ideas on how to feel them out/plan of attack so to speak?

 

I have been throwing together spreadsheets of data with mpgs, insurance, and virtually all aspects of expense out 8yrs to get the TCO (assuming ~150k miles lifetime) and break even price is looking like 24k (after tax cred) tops that just dont even seem attainable. maybe i had better go back to looking at the FFH

[hybridbear]

 

The used one i jsut got back from not test driving. it was not an energi just a FFH Ti. So downer there.

 

What is a reasonable, bot not uber low-ball offer would you say on like this guy http://kayserford.net/Madison/For-Sale/New/Ford/Fusion/2013-Energi-SE-White-Car/20955334/ ? (mind in WI we only get 4k fed tax cred)

 

Its madison so not quite small town, sadly only ones around are madison, fort, then over in Minneapolis. methinks that sneaking a long on the lot energi is not going to happen. Or any ideas on how to feel them out/plan of attack so to speak?

 

I have been throwing together spreadsheets of data with mpgs, insurance, and virtually all aspects of expense out 8yrs to get the TCO (assuming ~150k miles lifetime) and break even price is looking like 24k (after tax cred) tops that just dont even seem attainable. maybe i had better go back to looking at the FFH

Do you have a trade-in? You could offer them $28k if that's your limit and then walk if they won't take it. We started out by asking the dealer for their best price and then we negotiated from there.

 

Edit: you can use sites like Edmunds or KBB to get a feel for a reasonable price.

Edited November 20, 2014 by hybridbear

[lsherlockl]

Do you have a trade-in? You could offer them $28k if that's your limit and then walk if they won't take it. We started out by asking the dealer for their best price and then we negotiated from there.

 

Edit: you can use sites like Edmunds or KBB to get a feel for a reasonable price.

 

My trade in is pretty much a beater kbb gives it like 500-1000 (was thinking negotiate first then do trade idk icing on the top). I guess there is nothing to loose though (i also qualify for ford's student discount which is 500, not sure to pull that right away or negotiate and then go like oh yeah at the end get it tacked on, it dosn't cost the dealership anything as is from MFG).

 

 

I also realized another pickkle all of a sudden too. My taxes don't total 4k (never thought i would be upset with that). I know my parents do i think is the tax credit based on the purchase title holder? althought that would probably affect financing too hrmm. yeah might be really out of the running now...