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Efficiency on longer highway trips...


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113 replies to this topic

#101 OFFLINE   Hybrider

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:17 PM

My anecdotal observations are that it is traffic which has the single biggest effect on the fluctuations in my MPGs on my regular highway commute, but then again I don't have an anemometer mounted on my FFH either. :play:


Edited by Hybrider, 22 July 2014 - 03:18 PM.

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#102 OFFLINE   ptek

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 10:36 PM

I had been trying to maximize time in EV mode on my commute, and had managed an average of about 46 MPG and a best of about 51 MPG using that technique.  Over the past few weeks, I've been trying the high charge, ICE on mode described in this thread.  (Is this the same as the ICE-High mode described in other threads?)

 

Most of the time, the instant MPG would max out at about 40 MPG and to push the average higher, I have been doing a mini pulse-and-glide technique.  Doing this, I was able to get about the same MPGs as my prior max EV technique.

 

Today, I kept the ICE on instead of doing pulse and glides and was rewarded with the instant MPG climbing into the 50 MPG range, even at 65 to 70 MPH.  On my evening commute, I got my new best of 53.3!  I've noticed that the engine is much quieter in this mode.  With my previous maximize EV technique, when the HVB is depleted and the ICE comes on, the ICE must work hard to both propel the car and to recharge the HVB.  The ICE RPM range tended to fall into an area of a lot of resonance, resulting in a loud growl or mmMMMMOOOOOO-ing sound.  Now, the ICE has a light load (typically just over 1 bar) and I barely hear it.  Also, when I do get to a good EV section of road, the car can enter it with a full charge and go a long way.

 

I'm going to keep using this mode for a while to see if it gets easier to use and if I can learn the light touch needed to keep the ICE on without falling into EV mode.  Minnesota's rolling hills makes it hard to keep an even throttle.

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#103 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:35 PM

We just did a highway trip this past weekend to Kansas City & back. We drove into the wind both directions and used AC both ways. We got 38 MPG going south at 65-75 MPH and 40 MPG coming home at the same speeds. Kansas City is at approximately the same elevation as Mpls. I attribute the difference to two things: the south winds were slightly stronger than the north winds & out southbound trip was made with higher ambient temps so the AC had to work harder that day.

 

Each way I drove about 2/3 of the miles trying to keep the ICE on and my wife drove about 1/3 just letting the car do its own thing using cruise control.


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#104 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 04:04 PM

This morning I was SO close to a perfect score, then just before I reached my wife's office did a 99% and 94%. For some reason the brake feel changes in my car, where it feels like there is none then push just a touch more and hit service brakes.  Anyhow, leaving the house with a full charge I got a 49+.   For my driving, staying on ICE does seem to return the best. I have been doing the EV P&G all last week and yesterday and only seeing a 44 MPG tank, so it does matter. 


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#105 OFFLINE   Texasota

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 05:58 PM

If I am understanding the "keep the ICE on" technique the ultimate goal is to keep the ICE on the entire time and ideally without it expending any energy to recharge the HVB.  And using this technique it is being reported that MPG in the high 40s and low 50s can be consistently achieved.

 

If this is true, then does it logically follow that if Ford produced a gas Fusion that had the 2.0 Atkinson engine (with no hybrid componentry) we would have a mid-size car that would achieve high 40s or low 50s MPG on the highway which exceeds the EPA highway MPG of even the most efficent diesel midsize cars?



#106 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 06:52 PM

If I am understanding the "keep the ICE on" technique the ultimate goal is to keep the ICE on the entire time and ideally without it expending any energy to recharge the HVB.  And using this technique it is being reported that MPG in the high 40s and low 50s can be consistently achieved.

 

If this is true, then does it logically follow that if Ford produced a gas Fusion that had the 2.0 Atkinson engine (with no hybrid componentry) we would have a mid-size car that would achieve high 40s or low 50s MPG on the highway which exceeds the EPA highway MPG of even the most efficent diesel midsize cars?

Yes, but that car would be lacking in power compared to what most Americans demand. Note that the FFH has more total horsepower (188) than the 2.5L Fusion or the 1.6L Ecoboost Fusion.

 

If you had only the 141 HP Atkinson cycle 2.0L engine it would seem underpowered. It would also need a conventional transmission which may not be as efficient.

 

While our car is in the shop the dealer gave us a 2013 Fusion SE base model as a loaner. I plugged my ScanGauge in to it and I was watching HP & Load numbers while driving. Most of the time while accelerating, etc the HP demanded was about the same as what I see in the hybrid without the generator load, about 30 HP. When accelerating onto the freeway I accelerated slightly more aggresively and the ICE quickly raced up to over 100 HP. Even at that power level the car seemed to take forever to get up to 60 MPH. I don't think our ICE would have gone anywhere near that high. I'll have to monitor data if I drive it any more to see how it compares.

 

At 60 MPH the HP demand was quite similar to what we see as described above. However, the Load numbers were quite different. The FFH reports Load numbers in the high 70s to low 80s at ~25 HP. The 2.5L Fusion reported Load numbers in the 40s. This shows the efficiency of the atkinson cycle at that power demand and in how the ICE is programmed. The FFH ICE is programmed to never really go much higher than 60 HP unless you really push it because it has the electric motor to help it out with providing power. A non-hybrid doesn't have that so its ICE must be able to provide more power.

 

Either way, I hate driving a car with a shifting transmission. And this Fusion has almost 40k miles on it and the shifting is incredibly rough. Each time the transmission shifts the car lurches. I don't know how anyone can drive a car like that...


Edited by hybridbear, 30 July 2014 - 06:55 PM.

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#107 OFFLINE   corncobs

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 07:09 PM

Speaking about underpowered.
Ford is planning to sell the European Fusion ( Mondeo ) with their 1.0l Ecoboost engine. The same 125 HP engine they have been selling in the Fiesta since last year in the US and have won engine of the year award 3 years in a row.

I still remember when Japanese car makers started making 1.6l with 90 HP and th German auto makers said these engines will never last.

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#108 OFFLINE   mwr

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 07:22 PM

Either way, I hate driving a car with a shifting transmission. And this Fusion has almost 40k miles on it and the shifting is incredibly rough. Each time the transmission shifts the car lurches. I don't know how anyone can drive a car like that...

That must be a very poor 6-speed, either the design or that particular one. The 5-speed in my 2005 Subaru Legacy GT (2.5L, turbo, lots of power) shifts very smoothly.


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#109 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 09:35 PM

 

 

If you had only the 141 HP Atkinson cycle 2.0L engine it would seem underpowered. It would also need a conventional transmission which may not be as efficient.

 


 

Either way, I hate driving a car with a shifting transmission. And this Fusion has almost 40k miles on it and the shifting is incredibly rough. Each time the transmission shifts the car lurches. I don't know how anyone can drive a car like that...

 

The FFH ICE would work fine with a CVT, but would be very underpowered.   I also think that you are spoiled driving the Hybrids, after so many years driving one I find conventional trannies harsh too. 

 

However, mating the Atkinson without the Ecvt would not make a very efficient ride, the fuel used to get up to speed would be far more than a normal ICE since it wont have the Electric assist you get from the Hybrid side. Once up to speed and cruising on level roads with low resistance, you should see good economy, but any grade would put it back into fuel sucking mode.  The current ICE and ECVT is a perfect match, it just needs more tweaking in the programming. Hopefully at some point Ford will come out with new programming to lower the EV threshold at highway speeds to force more HVB charge into the pack to match what some of us are seeing doing this technique.


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#110 OFFLINE   Texasota

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 09:44 PM

Yes, but that car would be lacking in power compared to what most Americans demand. Note that the FFH has more total horsepower (188) than the 2.5L Fusion or the 1.6L Ecoboost Fusion.

 

If you had only the 141 HP Atkinson cycle 2.0L engine it would seem underpowered. It would also need a conventional transmission which may not be as efficient.

 

While our car is in the shop the dealer gave us a 2013 Fusion SE base model as a loaner. I plugged my ScanGauge in to it and I was watching HP & Load numbers while driving. Most of the time while accelerating, etc the HP demanded was about the same as what I see in the hybrid without the generator load, about 30 HP. When accelerating onto the freeway I accelerated slightly more aggresively and the ICE quickly raced up to over 100 HP. Even at that power level the car seemed to take forever to get up to 60 MPH. I don't think our ICE would have gone anywhere near that high. I'll have to monitor data if I drive it any more to see how it compares.

 

At 60 MPH the HP demand was quite similar to what we see as described above. However, the Load numbers were quite different. The FFH reports Load numbers in the high 70s to low 80s at ~25 HP. The 2.5L Fusion reported Load numbers in the 40s. This shows the efficiency of the atkinson cycle at that power demand and in how the ICE is programmed. The FFH ICE is programmed to never really go much higher than 60 HP unless you really push it because it has the electric motor to help it out with providing power. A non-hybrid doesn't have that so its ICE must be able to provide more power.

 

Either way, I hate driving a car with a shifting transmission. And this Fusion has almost 40k miles on it and the shifting is incredibly rough. Each time the transmission shifts the car lurches. I don't know how anyone can drive a car like that...

HB, thanks for the interesting response. I was partially motivated to pose those questions because of this article that I read recently which discusses Atkinson cycle engines that are coming in the near future for non-hybrid cars:

 

  http://wot.motortren...efficiency.html



#111 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 12:23 PM

That must be a very poor 6-speed, either the design or that particular one. The 5-speed in my 2005 Subaru Legacy GT (2.5L, turbo, lots of power) shifts very smoothly.

I think it's just been abused because it's a rental and at almost 40k miles the fluid is likely very dirty & in need of replacement.


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#112 OFFLINE   jonessoda

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 07:09 PM

I don't know how I feel about "tricking" the car into staying on the ICE while on the freeway. It seems like that would be a poor engineering choice on Ford's part to make the car less efficient at highway speeds.

 

The last >100 mile drive I did was last year, and included going over the Grapevine (http://en.wikipedia....ine,_California), and I still managed this:

 

GHjh0jEl.jpg

 

 

 



#113 OFFLINE   Brandon Satterwhite

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Posted 29 August 2016 - 09:41 PM

 

Power     Efficiency

10           28%

15           32%

20           35%

25           36%

30           35%

35           35%

40           35%

45           34%

 

 

This is interesting data that Larry posted on ICE efficiencies, but can someone make it more useful for me... Are the bars on the Empower screen 10 kW each?

 

i.e. can I expect to get basically max efficiency from the ICE if I'm at 2 bars? I think that's the result I'm picking up from all my reading here... if the EV goes above 1 bar, nudge the gas pedal until the ICE kicks on and you go up to 2 bars. Accelerate/charge HVB at 2 bars until (HVB approaching full and you're say a few MPH over the speed limit), and then glide back down in speed and go EV as far as you can.

 

Note that this is the plan I'm formulating in my head for 40 to 45 mph, which is my commute. I understand the ICE-only argument for the 65 to 70 mph crowd. At that speed, you probably don't accelerate with ICE at 2 bars, so you'd never hit the EV glide phase I'm describing, I'm guessing.



#114 OFFLINE   Brandon Satterwhite

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Posted 30 August 2016 - 05:53 PM

Never mind about the kW question. After I went out to the car to look at the Empower screen, I see that it looks like 1 bar = 1 kW.

 

This is great data to have. So it sounds like the general guidance would be that when possible you want to drive the ICE at > 1.5 bars on the Engage screen and (based on what I've read elsewhere) you want to use EV at <1 bar. I can definitely work with that!






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