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Fusion Hybrid Powertrain Technical Analysis with Torque Pro & a ScanGauge

Fusion Hybrid powertrain Torque Pro ScanGauge XGauge

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100 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   corncobs

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 02:49 PM

I think its the mix between 35 - 55 MPH and 65 MPH on the Interstate that does it for me. The cold weather is not helping that's for sure last week @ 49.9 @ 40* today 43.5 @ 20*
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#22 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 17 March 2014 - 03:02 PM

Your biggest gain is from starting out slow, where right out of my driveway I am doing 55 MPH, and continue at that speed for a good 20 miles with stops and turns and acceleration back to 55. No real Hybrid roads until I get into CL, thats where I gain back some of the lost MPG.  Terrain and speed have huge impacts on the cars. 


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#23 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 08:56 AM

Is there a way to read the position of the active grill shutters?  Are they being commanded open when you hit that 140F?  It would be interesting to see just when they are open at all, my guess is their main reason to open would be to provide air to the A/C condenser more than anything else.

The 140 F Generator Inverter temp seems to trigger a change in that cooling system loop because the temp never rises above 140 F even if I continue driving with the ICE on and the generator working to charge the HVB. It appears that when the temp hits 140 F, coolant begins flowing more quickly or coolant begins circulating through the radiator when prior to that it wasn't. When the Gen Inverter temp hits 140 F, the temps of both it and the Motor Inverter begin to quickly drop, even if I'm continuing to drive in a way that would normally make them heat up. Further evidence that grille covers don't adversely impact the hybrid components.

It appears that in one instance I found in my data of this happening that I was off in my guess.

 

Here's what the data shows for beginning data when the ICE came on:

time - 6:02:08 pm

coolant temp - 158.0

Gen Inverter Temp - 116.6

Motor Inverter Temp - 122.0

Useable SOC - 27.7%

 

The ICE came on and the car began charging the HVB with 30-37 amps flowing into the HVB. The Generator Torque was consistently around 27-28 newton-meters and the Generator RPM was between 3500 & 4500 RPM. The Gen Invtr Temp quickly rose from 116.6 to 140.0 in 21 seconds. By that point the useable SOC had climbed to 38.4%. At that point the rate of charging the HVB slowed to only about 23-27 amps. The Gen Torque dropped to 26.5-27.5 n-m and the Gen RPM dropped under 3000 RPM and continued dropping all the way down to 1500 RPM, all the while continuing to send the same amount of amps back to the HVB. ICE RPM was between 2100 and 2300 the entire time. As soon as the Gen RPM began to drop the Gen Invtr Temp began to drop. The Motor Invtr Temp also began to drop. This indicates that perhaps at that point the computer switched and began to send more of the output power from the ICE directly to the wheels. This allowed the ICE to continue charging the HVB at a slightly lower current flow, and explains the reduced Generator RPM and falling temperatures.

 

I don't expect there to be truth to the theory that the grille shutters opened when the Gen Invtr Temp hit 140 because Catalytic Converter temp and collant temps continued rising. The intake temperature didn't considerably change either.

 

Here are the peak temps for the hybrid components:

time - 6:02:33-6:02:37

Gen Inverter Temp - 141.8

Motor Inverter Temp - 125.6

 

Here are ending temps when the ICE turned back off:

time - 6:03:20 pm

coolant temp - 183.2

Gen Inverter Temp - 113.0

Motor Inverter Temp - 109.4

Useable SOC - 51.7%

 

This section of ICE runtime was unique in that the ending Gen Invtr Temp was lower than the temp when the ICE came on and the Generator added 24% useable SOC to the battery (Absolute SOC rose from 41.8% to 50.9% i.e. 0.1274 kWh was added to the battery). Typically when the ICE turns off the Gen Invtr Temp is much higher than it was when the ICE first turned on.

 

Further analysis is needed of Gen RPM and Torque in relation to amps flowing into the battery.


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#24 OFFLINE   tr7driver

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 09:05 AM

I was looking for the shutters under the hood of my car and didn't see them.  How can I find them?



#25 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 09:40 AM

When the ICE is off, the generator is not doing much at all except freewheeling when the car is in motion hence the low inverter temperature. When the ICE is on, it's doing a lot of things. It starts the ICE, charges the HVB, sometimes even partially powers the motor but above all controls the ICE RPM in conjunction with the computer to yield the power you are requesting with your foot. When you call for 30 hp worth of power, the system will operate the ICE at the RPM on the solid line of the figure 3 fuel map to yield that power ( kilowatts ). Remember the throttle is open almost all the way all the time so that's not how the RPM is controlled. It's controlled by the torgue load of the drivetrain, controlled by the generator,  and the fuel injection. When the SOC is low, the system will add some more power to charge the HVB. That's usually observed by just a little more RPM.


Edited by lolder, 18 March 2014 - 11:15 PM.


#26 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 01:21 PM

I've been analyzing more data over lunch and I found another instance similar to the one mentioned above. This time the Gen RPM went from being around 3000 down to 700 RPM while still putting the same amps back into the HVB. When the Gen RPM dropped, the temps dropped. Both these instances happened when accelerating up to freeway speeds. The change in behavior happened when exceeding 42 MPH in the instance mentioned above and when exceeding 51 MPH in this instance. My theory is that the temps dropped because the Gen RPM dropped and the Gen RPM dropped because the car began sending more ICE torque directly to the wheels instead of generating electricity that was then consumed by the traction motor.


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#27 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 01:31 PM

Reviewing data from another trip seems to confirm this. One stretch where the ICE came on driving at 50+ MPH caused a minimal increase in Gen Invtr Temp and the Gen RPM was 1200-1400 RPM with 30-38 amps flowing into the HVB. This indicates that in this instance the ICE was sending torque directly to the wheels and was not sending all its torque to the generator to make electricity for the traction motor to use to drive the wheels.


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#28 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 01:43 PM

If the cooling system is always circulating, then how is the temp regulated? 


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#29 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 02:52 PM

I made some comments earlier about the typical range of SOC used. Now that I have trip data I can expand those comments.

 

Useable SOC has a minimum value of 13% to 18%. This translates to an absolute SOC minimum of 36.2% to 38.2%.

 

Useable SOC has a maximum value of 48% to 65%. This translates to an absolute SOC maximum 49.6% to 55.9%.

 

The median maximum value in the approx. 20 trips that I analyzed is 53% useable SOC or 51.5% absolute SOC. The median minimum value is 16% useable SOC or 37.2% absolute SOC.

 

The shortest trip I reviewed today was 6.3 miles and the longest was just over 20 miles. All but one were between 6.3 & 12.8 miles.

 

This shows how carefully the battery is managed to protect its longevity. The maximum range of 36.2-55.9% absolute SOC means that we're only using 0.2758 kWh of the 1.4 kWh battery in the FFH in normal driving.


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#30 OFFLINE   tr7driver

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 02:54 PM

I would assume the two cooling systems are completely separate, with one regulating the ice temp (and the climate control) and the other regulating the generator?  Can your read temps from both systems?



#31 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 02:55 PM

If the cooling system is always circulating, then how is the temp regulated? 

Increasing or decreasing the speed of the coolant through the system perhaps. That's how the Prius does it. One of the Torque parameters I can track on the Prius is the hybrid water pump RPM. The lowest water pump RPM is 3250. When temps increase the water pump RPM will increase. I've seen it as high as 5000 RPM in the Prius.


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#32 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 02:56 PM

I would assume the two cooling systems are completely separate, with one regulating the ice temp (and the climate control) and the other regulating the generator?  Can your read temps from both systems?

In the Prius I can, in the FFH I cannot. That's why I use the temps from the Motor Inverter and Generator Inverter to track those temps. In the Prius the temp of the coolant is always much lower than the temps of any of the components. The Generator Inverter and Motor Inverter are the hottest points of all the temp sensors I can track in the Prius, that's why I'm comfortable using their data for the FFH as the hottest points in the hybrid system.


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#33 OFFLINE   corncobs

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 03:22 PM

@HB very nice stuff you are finding / writing here.

Now imagine that the computer got messed up during the initial "break in" or other reasons and the usable SOC (operating point) isn't were it should be for some of the underperforming cars out there.
This could explain why the 100% SOC hard reset has helped in most cases to improve FE resetting all mapping tables and making the system aware of its real capabilities.

Edited by corncobs, 18 March 2014 - 03:27 PM.

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#34 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 03:27 PM

@HB very nice stuff you are finding / writing here.

Now imagine that the computer got messed up during the initial "break in" or other reasons and the usable SOC (operating point) isn't were it should for some of the underperforming cars out there.
This could explain why the 100% SOC reset has helped in most cases to improve FE resetting all mapping tables and making the system aware of its real capabilities.

Good point. If the set base values are off from the beginning, it can cascade as time goes on. If the computer determines a full charge is only 40%, and discharge is only 30%, then you only have 10% efficiency of the battery. It does figure into the BD, because I rarely ever saw a charge above 60% while driving, while this one I can get a near full charge. 


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#35 OFFLINE   ptek

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 10:23 PM

 

Is there a way to read the position of the active grill shutters?  Are they being commanded open when you hit that 140F?  It would be interesting to see just when they are open at all, my guess is their main reason to open would be to provide air to the A/C condenser more than anything else.

 

 

Not that anyone has found. That's an interesting theory on the temp dropping. I will have to look more closely at the data to see if coolant temp and intake temp are also affected at that same moment to indicate that the shutters are opening.

 

I'm just getting started with my new ELM327 (just got it to connect tonight), so I'm still learning and may be off base here.

 

I'm currently using FORScan with my WinXP laptop.  FORScan has parameters for Grille Shutter A Position - Commanded and Grille Shutter A Position - Inferred.  These are in the OBDII module.  Doesn't Torque have these?


Edited by ptek, 18 March 2014 - 10:36 PM.

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#36 OFFLINE   tr7driver

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 08:23 AM

Can you write to memory module with any of these tools?  LIke change the parameters for grill shutter position or change the level that causes the shutters to close?



#37 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 08:25 AM

That is a slippery slope to try that. 


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#38 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:10 AM

 

I'm just getting started with my new ELM327 (just got it to connect tonight), so I'm still learning and may be off base here.

 

I'm currently using FORScan with my WinXP laptop.  FORScan has parameters for Grille Shutter A Position - Commanded and Grille Shutter A Position - Inferred.  These are in the OBDII module.  Doesn't Torque have these?

It's likely. Torque can read any parameter if you can give it the data to allow it to find the data. What data can you see in FORScan about those data points?


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#39 OFFLINE   ptek

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 09:28 PM

It's likely. Torque can read any parameter if you can give it the data to allow it to find the data. What data can you see in FORScan about those data points?

 

I think the commanded and inferred grill shutter positions would be the only interesting ones.  Here is a copy/paste of the FORScan output that I logged the other night with the car parked & ICE not running.

 

AAT           48 °F      Ambient Air Temperature
GRILL_A_CMD   15.29 %    Grill Shutter A Position - Commanded
GRILL_A_INF   31.37 %    Grill Shutter A Position - Inferred
EC_BYPASS_VLV Off        Engine Coolant Bypass Valve Control Output
RPM           0 rev/min  Engine Revolutions Per Minute
VSS           0.0 mph    Vehicle Speed
RUNTM         0 min      Engine Run Time
OIL_REMAINING 85.00 %    Engine Oil Life Remaining

 

The attached pic shows the available shutter parameters.

Attached File  pcm_grill_params.jpg   55.99KB   1 downloads

 

Note that the PCM module has a few hundred parameters available (some probably aren't very interesting).  The BECM (Battery Energy Control Module) has 62.  Unfortunately, it doesn't look like FORScan will let you pick and choose parameters between modules.  You can only look at data from one module at a time.


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#40 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 21 March 2014 - 07:44 AM

I don't understand what the percentages mean for the grille shutters or why they're different...

 

I think the commanded and inferred grill shutter positions would be the only interesting ones.  Here is a copy/paste of the FORScan output that I logged the other night with the car parked & ICE not running.

GRILL_A_CMD   15.29 %    Grill Shutter A Position - Commanded
GRILL_A_INF   31.37 %    Grill Shutter A Position - Inferred


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