Fusion Hybrid Powertrain Technical Analysis with Torque Pro & a ScanGauge

[hybridbear]

Is there another pump for the heater core? If not, does the ICE pump run on heater demand when the ICE is off?

I don't know. It's getting a little warm to use heat now to be able to check this. The Energi has the ability to isolate the heater core coolant loop and heat it with the electric heater. The Energi must thus have 2 pumps. The Hybrid doesn't isolate the heater core loop, and thus I'd guess that there's only one pump. If we get another cool morning I can check it out.

Thanks to the goofy HVAC behavior documented in this post I was able to test this over the weekend. I saw the ICE coolant pump PID reporting 1200-1500 RPM and correspondingly the HVAC system was blowing warm air out the vents. It was very strange to have the A/C on and set to 73 F and then get the ICE coolant pump circulating hot coolant through the heater core so that the car would blow hot air out the vents while continuing to pull electricity out of the HVB to power the A/C compressor...what a strange design!

[hybridbear]

After watching HVB temps & fan performance over the weekend I think I've detected a pattern. The HVB fans always seem to come on when the HVB temp becomes about 15 F (8 C) warmer than the ambient temp. On Friday, when the temp was in the low 80s, the HVB fans didn't turn on until the HVB temp reached 95+. On Sunday, when it was 70 & raining, the HVB fans turned on when the HVB temp reached 85 F.

 

This fan behavior applies when ambient temps are 65+ F.

[lolder]

Thanks to the goofy HVAC behavior documented in this post I was able to test this over the weekend. I saw the ICE coolant pump PID reporting 1200-1500 RPM and correspondingly the HVAC system was blowing warm air out the vents. It was very strange to have the A/C on and set to 73 F and then get the ICE coolant pump circulating hot coolant through the heater core so that the car would blow hot air out the vents while continuing to pull electricity out of the HVB to power the A/C compressor...what a strange design!

What was the outside temp? Lot's of systems leave the AC on and mix it with heat when the overall command is for heat. This is to de-humidify. I think the 2010-12s leave the AC on into ambient temperatures in the 40's at least I usually push it off then but frequently the windows start to fog so I turn the AC on again. If your system was calling for cold and added heat, I'll have to think about that one.

[acdii]

I use the 4-55 AC method. 4 windows down @ 55 MPH. Love it. I determined that in this case, driving with the windows down and sunroof vented uses less fuel than window sup and AC running. Quite the opposite of other cars.

[Waldo]

I use the 4-55 AC method. 4 windows down @ 55 MPH. Love it. I determined that in this case, driving with the windows down and sunroof vented uses less fuel than window sup and AC running. Quite the opposite of other cars.

 

How did you determine that? I would think it would be the opposite of most cars, since the FFH's A/C system is far more efficient than a normal car's. Opening the windows will create roughly the same amount of drag on any car, so the energy lost to drag will be the same on all cars. But the energy required by the A/C is less on the FFH, so the point at which it's more efficient to close the windows and run the A/C should be at a lower speed in the FFH than in other cars.

[acdii]

Driving the same road every day gives you an idea of what kind of MPG you get. When there was a stretch of warm days last year, I drove one day with AC on, the next off with the windows cracked an inch in the back and the sunroof vented, did much better the second day. Driving with them all the way down though doesn't do as well, but it SURE felt good!

[CapnBry]

Hi folks! I'm a stowaway from the Fusion Energi forum come here to steal your codes!

 

Before I took delivery of my Fusion, it was diagnosed as having a short in the DC/DC converter that drained the 12V battery. They replaced a part and sent me on my way but I've been watching the 12V battery out of caution. It seems to me that the 12V battery level is always pretty low, 12.45V when "full" and dropping to 12.05V after just 12 hours of sitting. I have an ELM327 bluetooth module and Torque Pro for Android so I was hoping to pull some more information about what's going on. I see that the second post of this thread is reserved for Torque PIDs but there's none posted yet.

 

The PIDs from larryh seem to work but I see a lot more in this thread that I'd be interested in monitoring. I was planning on building a 12V monitoring microcontroller that transmits back to a base station where I can graph it, but pulling the 12V status from the OBD-II port could be a great complement.

 

Specifically I am looking for these but I love numbers so I'll take whatever you're willing to type in :)

12V SOC

12V amps

DC2DC kW

 

[larryh]

FORScan provides access to hundreds of PIDs. You can download it from forscan.org.

 

You should be measuring the 12 V battery level when there is no load on the battery, about 20 minutes after the car is turned off and all the doors are closed. The voltage should be at least 12.6 V.

 

A more complete list of PIDs is here, but you have to translate the X-Gauge codes: "http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/6503-scangauge-ii-x-gauge-codes/?p=50199". See the following thread: http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/topic/2757-obd2-%E2%80%93-elm-327-%E2%80%93-torque/

 

The lists are missing the headers, which are needed to specify the module containing the PIDs.

Edited June 6, 2014 by larryh

[lolder]

In my 2010, the 12 vdc static voltage is frequently a few tenths of a volt below what the specific gravity would correlate to. That's 20 %! The voltage /SG relationship is for a battery under no load and recovered from charging. I think the larger electrical residual loads in these cars are causing these lower voltages. The batteries usually pass load tests. There have been a LOT of bad OEM 12 vdc batteries in all the FFH model years. I've experienced the terminal voltage drop in my sailboat that had 660 ampere hours of 12 vdc batteries when there was maybe a 0.1 amp residual load..

Edited June 6, 2014 by lolder

[acdii]

Speaking of batteries, what would be a good battery to use in my trailer for running lights, and inverter, and chargers? Going to have a solar panel for keeping it charged up when not connected to the car.

[murphy]

Speaking of batteries, what would be a good battery to use in my trailer for running lights, and inverter, and chargers? Going to have a solar panel for keeping it charged up when not connected to the car.

An AGM or a GEL cell battery would be best since they are totally sealed and do not vent hydrogen like a wet cell battery can. AGM batteries come in much higher capacities than GEL cell batteries so it depends on how long you need the battery to run.

[CapnBry]

You should be measuring the 12 V battery level when there is no load on the battery, about 20 minutes after the car is turned off and all the doors are closed. The voltage should be at least 12.6 V.

Thanks for all the codes, I can't wait until I get to be a passenger again next time to play with them all.

 

My previous unscientific method of measuring 12V involved keeping a multimeter in the trunk and measuring the voltage at the battery every time I got in the car. This is a flawed methodology, because as you say it should be measured with no load and there's a trunk light, I had usually opened and closed a door before I measured, etc.

 

I built a microcontroller that measured the battery voltage all night and transmitted it to a base station for graphing. The average power draw of the transmitter was under 5mA so it shouldn't have affected the readings. The battery lost less than 0.03V over 12 hours (12.60 to 12.57). This graph shows how much even a minor load can affect the voltage (scale is V*10).

 

As you can see, the battery is going along minding its business at about 12.57V. I open the door and it immediately dips to 12.35V. Press the power button, and I guess the DCDC converter does a quick test, bumping the voltage up to 13.15V for a moment then turning off. Battery voltage drops to 12V as I play with the OBD-II for a few minutes. There's a bump back up when I turn off accessory power, then another bump as the lights go out, and then the voltage slowly climbs back up to full power.

 

Looks to me that my battery is working fine after the repair. I was worried about it because I'm going on a vacation in a couple of weeks and I wanted to be sure I wouldn't be coming home 5 days later to a dead battery. I don't think I'll have a problem. Again, thanks for your help and sorry about taking this thread a little off topic.

[hybridbear]

I had previously talked about Useable SOC, Displayed SOC & Absolute SOC. I had discovered that the Useable SOC formula that someone had written wasn't quite accurate in having a range of 0-100. So I set about writing my own.

 

The equation for Absolute SOC is (((A*256)+B)*(1/5))/100.

The equation for Use SOC is (A*133)/100-80.

The equation for the data points is Use SOC = 2.606(Abs SOC) - 81.321

 

My new equation is NewUse SOC = 3.125(Abs SOC) - 103.125. This is based on data points of (33, 0) & (65, 100).

 

Thus I was able to write a new Torque PID for my new "useable SOC".

[expresspotato]

For the Fusion Energi, there is a separate pump for the coolant loop that includes the heating element. That pump runs independently of the main coolant loop pump. The main coolant loop pump only runs when the ICE is on. See page 98 of the following document:

 

http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdirs/diagnostics/pdf/OBDSM1303_HEV.pdf

Fascinating read

[mwr]

Wow, lots of information in that document. I just browsed it a bit, but this sort of jumped out at me on page 9.

 

Cruising - At heavy load (due to high speeds, weight, towing or grade), the system will be limited to engine only
performance (no battery support).

 

Why wouldn't the system use electrical power (assuming it's available) in addition to the ICE when under heavy load? If ICE only, I would expect marginal performance going up grades at higher altitude.in the mountains, and I've read here about how that is not a problem.

Edited June 23, 2014 by mwr

[acdii]

At heavy load the ICE is direct coupled to the driveline, so the MG would be ineffective.

[mwr]

At heavy load the ICE is direct coupled to the driveline, so the MG would be ineffective.

That would seem to defeat the advantage of having both methods of power (with188 hp) available, instead replaced under heavy load by IE-only (with 141 hp).

[hybridbear]

That would seem to defeat the advantage of having both methods of power (with188 hp) available, instead replaced under heavy load by IE-only (with 141 hp).

The car will use whichever power source is most efficient. Typically at highway speeds the majority of the power going to the wheels is directly from the ICE, although it will use the traction motor to generate electricity which the generator motor then takes and uses to supply power to the wheels.

[mwr]

The car will use whichever power source is most efficient. Typically at highway speeds the majority of the power going to the wheels is directly from the ICE, although it will use the traction motor to generate electricity which the generator motor then takes and uses to supply power to the wheels.

What you said sounds right to me for being the way it should work. But to me, that doesn't agree with "Cruising - At heavy load (due to high speeds, weight, towing or grade), the system will be limited to engine only performance (no battery support)."

[lolder]

The definition of "heavy load" is important. Going up long hills in the western US at high speeds will exhaust the available EV assist and the car will revert to what the ICE can provide. During full throttle acceleration from a stop, all sorts of modes come into play. If output power from the generator becomes available as the result of it's managing the eCVT, it will assist the HVB with additional power to the motor. These relationships change from moment to moment. Look at this Gen 1 Prius simulator. Ford is similar. http://www.wind.sannet.ne.jp/m_matsu/prius/ThsSimu/index_i18n.html?Language=en?Country=US

Put a check in the Driving Mode box and select D. Operate the Accel or Brake sliders and watch all the complicated things that happen with RPM and energy flow arrows.

[mwr]

The definition of "heavy load" is important. Going up long hills in the western US at high speeds will exhaust the available EV assist and the car will revert to what the ICE can provide. During full throttle acceleration from a stop, all sorts of modes come into play. If output power from the generator becomes available as the result of it's managing the eCVT, it will assist the HVB with additional power to the motor. These relationships change from moment to moment. Look at this Gen 1 Prius simulator. Ford is similar. http://www.wind.sannet.ne.jp/m_matsu/prius/ThsSimu/index_i18n.html?Language=en?Country=US

Put a check in the Driving Mode box and select D. Operate the Accel or Brake sliders and watch all the complicated things that happen with RPM and energy flow arrows.

I fully understand, and expect, "Going up long hills in the western US at high speeds will exhaust the available EV assist and the car will revert to what the ICE can provide". That is the reservation I expressed earlier here, for example going up the long hills into theh Sierra mountains here in California. Others replied that it would not present a problem, but I'm still not convinced.

 

However, the statement in the technical doc quoted above didn't qualify "limited to engine only" to when the HVB ran down. But I guess that's what they meant by "heavy load". It seems that electrical power is available (as it should be) until the HVB gets too low to provide additional power. They should have had this group edit that doc :-)

[acdii]

There are 4 stages to how the drivetrain works. First stage is pure electric, where, the traction motor supplies all propulsion. The second stage is mixed ICE/traction motor, where power is applied from both EV and ICE. Third is ICE assist, where the traction motor is propelling the car consuming energy from generator that the ICE is spinning. Fourth stage with where the ICE is locked to the main output shaft and providing all the power needed to propel the car. This last stage is the most efficient under heavy load since it would quickly drain the batteries and cause them to over heat.

 

Watch the battery symbols while driving, you can tell each stage by the up and down arrows. The most efficient stage is where the ICE is providing just enough generator energy to propel the car and not charge the battery and not consume energy from the HVB. This is where there are no arrows present in that display.

 

BTW you don't need max HP to climb a grade, just enough torque to maintain speed. The ICE alone has plenty to provide with some reserve to climb any grade.

[brentw]

Hi folks! I'm a stowaway from the Fusion Energi forum come here to steal your codes!

 

Before I took delivery of my Fusion, it was diagnosed as having a short in the DC/DC converter that drained the 12V battery. They replaced a part and sent me on my way but I've been watching the 12V battery out of caution. It seems to me that the 12V battery level is always pretty low, 12.45V when "full" and dropping to 12.05V after just 12 hours of sitting. I have an ELM327 bluetooth module and Torque Pro for Android so I was hoping to pull some more information about what's going on. I see that the second post of this thread is reserved for Torque PIDs but there's none posted yet.

 

The PIDs from larryh seem to work but I see a lot more in this thread that I'd be interested in monitoring. I was planning on building a 12V monitoring microcontroller that transmits back to a base station where I can graph it, but pulling the 12V status from the OBD-II port could be a great complement.

 

Specifically I am looking for these but I love numbers so I'll take whatever you're willing to type in :)

12V SOC

12V amps

DC2DC kW

Do you remember what code(s) were reported for the short?

Looks like I'm developing a similar issue.

I too would like the the PIDs for 12V SOC, 12V amps and DC2DC kW.

FORScan reports:

Code: B130C - Load Shed Control

Additional Fault Symptom:

- Circuit Short To Ground Or Open

Status:

- DTC Maturing - Intermittent at Time of Request

- Malfunction Indicator Lamp is Off for this DTC

Module: Body Control Module

 

Using a battery tender at night (last 4 nights) and still notice the voltage is dropping below 12V after sitting just 5 hours at work after charging. I monitor 12v voltage with a volt meter plugged into accessory outlet in the armrest (power turns off to outlet after 200 minutes).

[larryh]

FORScan provides the 12 V battery SOC, voltage, amps, and the DC2DC converter High Voltage Power and Low Voltage Power.

 

The BdyCM (BCM) provides the 12 V battery measurements:

 

BAT_CURRENT Vehicle Battery - Current
BAT_ST_CHRG Vehicle Battery - State of Charge
V_BATT_BCM Battery Voltage

The DCDC provides the power measurements (multiply current by voltage to get power in watts):

 

High Voltage side

ConvHiCurre DC/DC Converter High Voltage (HV) Current - Measured
HEV_Hi_VOL Hybrid Electric Vehicle (HEV) High Voltage Bus - Measured

 

Low Voltage side

ConvLoCurre DC/DC Converter Low Voltage (LV) current
ECU_Pow_Supp Module Supply Voltage

I'm not sure that the Load Shed Control DTC is very useful. I think that is more informational than indicating there is a problem. I see it all the time.

It would be nice if you could record data while the car was off--but the ECU needs to be running to read any PIDs.

 

Edited July 15, 2014 by larryh

[talmy]

I've got a question related to the original topic from hybridbear. We've got a 7 month old Fusion Hybrid SE with 11,000 miles and a 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid with 120,000 miles. While the OP seems to be drawing similarities between the Fusion and Prius, I've found the Fusion and Camry to behave considerably differently. Is this really the case? No Prius experience here but I'd expect the Prius and Camry to be similar.

 

No Scan Gauge, but my observation of the Fusion operation is in agreement -- the ICE tends to either work hard or is off, maintaining most efficient operation (I'd presume). It is constantly cycling on and off, indicating either EV operation or low MPG. Speed limits (and my driving) rarely exceeds 65 MPH. The ICE is aggressive at cold start, charging the battery and quickly warming up to allow EV operation even in cold weather.

 

The Camry ICE seems more willing to run at different torque settings, even at lower speeds (<40) which allow EV operation. You have to work at getting it to cycle. It really seems to just want to use the battery for load balancing. The MPG gauge will easily maintain about 40 MPG constantly with a steady cruise, something the Fusion just will not do naturally. In freezing weather, it often refuses to enter EV mode at all. I wonder if this might have something to do with the NiMH battery limitations compared to the Li-ion in the Fusion? The NiMH batteries tend to lose capacity over time at a faster rate, yet fuel consumption doesn't seem to go up. The Fusion seems to have a larger battery reliance (although as you post, it, too, uses very little of its capacity) which might not bode well at 150,000 miles or more.

 

(As an aside, we are getting 5-10 MPG better with the Fusion, plus it's a much nicer car in just about every respect.)