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Understanding the FFH better with a ScanGauge

ScanGauge II XGauges Fusion Hybrid performance monitoring fuel economy efficiency MPGs

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63 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   corncobs

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 01:32 PM

HB thanks for reminding me of my goal > trying to calculate the work done by the electric motor. Too many things going on in my head... ;-)
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#22 OFFLINE   murphy

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 01:34 PM

Volts times Amperes = Watts

 

Watts divided by 1000 = kW (kilowatts)

 

kW times Hours = kWh (kilowatt hours)


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#23 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 09:45 PM

Well 30 years ago I studied electronics to repair televisions. I dont remember anything other than the terminologies.

 

However, Based on my experience with Electric RC and Lip batteries, there are thresholds to keep. Never exceed a set voltage, High or low. If you go below a set low voltage, you basically destroy the battery.  The Computers in Hybrids control these voltages so that they never exceed either threshold, and in fact do their best to cycle the packs to keep them in peak performance.

 

In the 10-12 FFH the computer does an occasional peaking cycle where it hard charges the packs and keeps them at top level for a set time. First time mine did it made me thing the car broke since there is no EV at all during that time and the engine does not shut down until the cycle is completed.  Funny thing is I got my best MPG during these times.

 

I dont know if the new Fusion needs to do this at all since the battery levels are much higher and cycle more often due to the higher EV speeds.  What would be curious is at what voltage does it kick out of EV and what the peak voltage is on the pack. Its a 300 volt pack.  Is it lithium Ion, or lithium polymer? Whichever they are, they are of very high quality and very high C rating.  C rating is how fast you can discharge and charge the cell.

 

NiMh batteries are charged as one, where Lithium are charged per cell, and use a balance system to prevent one cell from being over or undercharged.  It basically shunts current from the higher charged cells to the lower ones, so they all balance out. Very important since overcharging a cell is a bad thing, which could cause the cell to overheat, burst or catch fire.

 

My theory based on what I see with my lipo packs and how they perform.

 

As far as current draw, the computer will keep the amps within set limits to prevent pulling too much out of the pack at one time, which is where it will fire the ICE. This also is calculated based on its SOC, which is computed based on voltage, and uses a table that has how much current can be drawn at any given voltage, along with how quickly the voltage drops at any given amp draw.

 

An example is when I fly a Power 25 equipped plane using a 3S 35C 3200 mah pack,  If I go wide open throttle, the voltage drops quick, then stabilizes and continues to drop at a steady rate until the low voltage cutoff occurs.  If I go half throttle slowly the voltage doesnt drop right away, but as the mah starts to deplete the voltage will slowly drop, even if I go to wide open.   If I fly with WOT bursts it will deplete the pack much faster than if I slowly go to WOT, and it will also heat the pack up faster, which in turn will cause the volts to drop.  A higher mah, higher C pack will supply more current for a longer time before the volts start to drop.

 

I have a volt alarm that measures each cell in flight, and will alarm when it reaches a set voltage, usually 3.4 V per cell. If I fly WOT it will drop to this setting really fast, but if I fly at half throttle I can fly much much longer, even if I do a WOT burst and trigger the alarm I find that reducing throttle to half I can fly for a few more minutes before the alarm will trigger hard and I need to land.  So in a sense what I am doing with the throttle management to extend my flight time and not kill the pack with the alarm and stick, the hybrid computers are doing the same thing, but at a much higher scale and more precision.

 

When it comes to charging, you can put the current back in based on the MAh and C rating of the pack. There are 2 C ratings, the higher rating is for discharge, or a 3300 mah 35C pack can be discharged at 35 times 3300 or 117 Amps.  The lower C rating is how much you can charge it at, mine is 5C, so 5 X 3300 mah  or 16.5 amps.

 

So hopefully based on this you can get an idea of how the charge/discharge system on the Hybrid can function, just at a much higher rate. I believe the max charge rate is 30 amps. If that is true, based on 1C it would mean the pack is rated at 30,000 mah.  At a 5C rating 6000 mah.  You cant put it back in as fast as you can take it out, but the Hybrid system comes pretty close.


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#24 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:05 PM

HB thanks for reminding me of my goal > trying to calculate the work done by the electric motor. Too many things going on in my head... ;-)

Very cool! So...

 

280 volts x 20 amps = 5600 watts = 5.6 kW = 7.51 hp. This makes sense that the first line on the Empower screen would be about 7.5 hp considering that when the ICE is running at that line it typically shows about 21-23 hp with about 16-18 amps flowing into the battery. When idling with the ICE on I've determined that 14-15 hp from the ICE gets about 16-18 amps of charge flowing into the battery. So if we take away the 14-15 horsepower for the generator we're left with about 7.5 horsepower left to power the car. Very cool!!

 

Volts times Amperes = Watts

 

Watts divided by 1000 = kW (kilowatts)

 

kW times Hours = kWh (kilowatt hours)

Thank you for the reminder of how it works.

 

So hopefully based on this you can get an idea of how the charge/discharge system on the Hybrid can function, just at a much higher rate. I believe the max charge rate is 30 amps. If that is true, based on 1C it would mean the pack is rated at 30,000 mah.  At a 5C rating 6000 mah.  You cant put it back in as fast as you can take it out, but the Hybrid system comes pretty close.

The max charging I've observed is just over 40 amps. The max discharging I've observed is just over 50 amps.


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#25 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 07:07 AM

Here's a question for everyone, any ideas of how to secure the cable? I used the velcro mounts to mount the SGII on the steering column behind the wheel but in front of the dash. In this location it doesn't block any of the dash and is completely visible behind the steering wheel. However, there is a lot of extra cable. Any ideas of how to best secure the extra cable? Thanks.


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#26 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 07:27 AM

Very cool! So...

 

280 volts x 20 amps = 5600 watts = 5.6 kW = 7.51 hp. This makes sense that the first line on the Empower screen would be about 7.5 hp considering that when the ICE is running at that line it typically shows about 21-23 hp with about 16-18 amps flowing into the battery. When idling with the ICE on I've determined that 14-15 hp from the ICE gets about 16-18 amps of charge flowing into the battery. So if we take away the 14-15 horsepower for the generator we're left with about 7.5 horsepower left to power the car. Very cool!!

 

Thank you for the reminder of how it works.

 

The max charging I've observed is just over 40 amps. The max discharging I've observed is just over 50 amps.

The HVB can peak for 1 second at over 120 amps discharge ( 34 kw at 270 V. ) and about 90 ( 25 kw ) charge in the Gen I FFH. See table 2 here: http://avt.inl.gov/p...fusion4757.pdf.

50 amps is reasonable to see in normal driving.

I would expect the LiIon of the Gen II FFH to be more powerful.


Edited by lolder, 13 September 2013 - 07:29 AM.

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#27 OFFLINE   corncobs

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 07:52 AM

Here's a question for everyone, any ideas of how to secure the cable? I used the velcro mounts to mount the SGII on the steering column behind the wheel but in front of the dash. In this location it doesn't block any of the dash and is completely visible behind the steering wheel. However, there is a lot of extra cable. Any ideas of how to best secure the extra cable? Thanks.

Hi HB have you thought about cable tie holders? They come in different sizes and should help secure the cable. I used them inside the center console securing the wires for my ambient lighting.
Any extra wire I would hide behind the steering column right where the fuses are.

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#28 OFFLINE   vangonebuy

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 07:57 PM

Any ideas of how to best secure the extra cable?

 

 

A long wire twist tie works well. 

Wrap the excess SGII wire into a bowtie.

Wrapping the twist tie wire across the middle and tightening.

Then, with the excess twist tie wire. Attach it to the wire harness underneath the dash.

 

That way you can remove it without undoing the bowtied wire.

Be careful of the SGII connectors in the back. The clip in square plastic piece is not held in too well.

So leave some slack in the wire.

I know.

 

SGII is very handy for running a Trouble code scan on others car. I take it out often.

 

If you ever get rich, A second SGII can be daisy chained off the 1st one.

Giving you 8 readouts at once.
 


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#29 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 14 September 2013 - 06:21 PM

Thanks for the ideas. I researched in general on the internet about this and found suggestions on other Forums about sliding the excess cable inside the steering column where there's a space at the bottom so that's what I did. If anyone knows of something that might be damaged by doing this, please let me know. Otherwise that's where the cable is for now.


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#30 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 09:31 AM

Thanks for the ideas. I researched in general on the internet about this and found suggestions on other Forums about sliding the excess cable inside the steering column where there's a space at the bottom so that's what I did. If anyone knows of something that might be damaged by doing this, please let me know. Otherwise that's where the cable is for now.

Now that you mention this, thats what I did too.


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#31 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 15 September 2013 - 02:36 PM

Another observation: some of you have noticed that your car will sound like the ICE is pulsing. The pressure on the pedal is constant but you'll hear the sound of the ICE change. With the SGII I've been able to see that when you hear that pulsing noise the RPM isn't changing much, but the horsepower increases and decreases and the LOD also goes up and down with the sound. The change in LOD is triggered by an increasing and decreasing generator load. When the LOD and HP go up the amps going into the battery also increase.

Just another interesting tidbit I've noticed with the SGII.


Edited by hybridbear, 18 September 2013 - 08:06 AM.

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#32 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 08:13 AM

Here is some more information to go with my notes about air conditioning use from the initial post. I commented there that the AC draw is about 15 amps, maybe as high as 20 when you're first starting out with a hot car. Based on an average HVB voltage of about 285 that would mean the AC is drawing 285 x 15 = 4275 watts or 4.275 kW. When I've observed the AC drawing this level of current the MyView display shows the AC draw at about 4.275 bars. This leads me to believe that on that screen each bar equals 1 kW of power draw.

 

When the car is cool the AC current draw drops to about 2 amps. 2 x 285 = .57 kW. This jives with that graph displaying about a half bar sustained power demand to run the AC.

 

Considering that the current draw at idle is about .6 amps times 285 volts or .17 kW that seems to mesh with the display showing just under 1/4 of a bar for the accessories functions.


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#33 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 08:22 AM

Yep, for once a car display thats accurate, at least they got that part down! :) 


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#34 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 10:28 AM

Here are some more voltage observations...

 

Ford calls the HVB systems approximately 300 volts DC. I've observed with the SGII that when the battery SOC is higher the pack voltage is higher. When the SOC is being charged the pack voltage increased up to about 295+ volts. When being discharged the pack voltage has dropped down under 280 with a low SOC. This means that the AMPs of current flow equal different kW values based on pack voltage. The numbers that we've previously discussed for kWs at certain amperage levels are based on approximations. It's interesting to see how much the pack voltage varies.

 

I'm not sure what this all means because I'm not an electrical engineer. However, learning about this car sure makes me wish I had picked electrical engineering as my major in college instead of Risk Management/Finance. If I were graduating High School today and deciding on a major I would definitely choose some form of engineering...


Edited by hybridbear, 30 September 2013 - 10:29 AM.

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#35 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 08:02 PM

With Lion cells, the peak voltage is ~4.2v, max discharge, the never exceed this voltage or kiss the battery goodbye is 2.5-3v.  The nominal voltage is 3.8v. This is the voltage the cells will stay at during discharge until they are depleted. Its a fairly flat curve from peak to discharged.

 

Based on your readings, and the voltages per cell, there would mean there are 75 cells in the pack, and low cutoff is programmed at 3,73 v per cell.  Thats does sound about right. While my LiPo packs have a slighty greater range, 3.2-4.2, storage at 3.8 v, the lion is very similar.  

 

My guess on the charge/discharge levels is 4.1 peak and 3.6 cutoff.  The system will not let you get below a set voltage no matter what, it will shut itself down if that ever happens. It will also not go above a set voltage per cell.  I can almost guarantee that the battery pack has each cell wired to a master control board that prevents any one cell from going above or below a set voltage, especially on discharge, one a Lixx cell drops below a certain voltage, it will not recover.  Over charging a cell can cause it to over heat and that is a very bad thing(just ask Boeing).


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#36 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:13 PM

I recently found on the C-Max Forum XGauge codes for SOC which show that the car only uses a range from about 40%-65% SOC of the HVB. 40% approximately equals an empty battery on the dash and 65% about equals a full dash battery. The dash battery graph doesn't follow a linear scale though. If very quickly moves from about 2/3 full to 1/3 on the display while the HVB actually isn't changing in SOC that much. Another XGauge code allows you to see SoC as the % SoC of the useable portion of the battery. This allows you to see that the battery icon doesn't follow a linear scale. The SoC (SOC = % charge of entire pack ranging from about 40-65%, SoC = % charge of useable portion of battery, coincides with dash display) doesn't change that much when the battery icon shows a big change from about 2/3 full to 1/3 full. This helps to explain why pre-PCM update when on the freeway exceeding 62 MPH it would take so long to get to ICE High mode with high instant MPGs. While the battery icon on the dash would quickly show 2/3 full it would take a long time to reach the approximately 80% full at which point the ICE would stop charging the battery and begin showing high instant MPGs.

 

Unfortunately I haven't had a lot of time driving the car since learning these XGauge codes I don't have a very complete understanding of their relationship. The comments above are my preliminary observations which confirm the observations of some C-Max Hybrid owners who have ScanGauges as well. In future weeks I'll monitor this further and share what else I learn.


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#37 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:32 AM

Compare SOC with actual battery voltage too. It takes along time to go from 3.8V to 4.2 on a Lipo, so I cant see it being much different for the Lion. I do have a pair of Lion packs for my giant scale, but I haven't flown it yet to get an idea of the voltage levels.

 

Lion, Lipo, and LiFe batteries are similar in how they function, but have different voltages, and different current draws. I Lipo can give a high rate of current, for a short period of time, or a long duration at a slow rate, the Lion is nearly the same, but not as high a current draw, and has a lower voltage.  LiFe is  mainly for slow draw long duration applications, such as radios, and low current motors. It also operates at a different voltage. It also cant be charged at a high rate like the Lion and Lipo.

 

Lipos, though they can take and give a high current rate, also can go bad quickly if they get too hot, go above their max voltage, or go below their cutoff voltage, where the Lion is more stable in voltage ranges, and can recover if they go below their cutoff voltage.

 

I believe this to be the reason for the use of Lion instead of Lipo in the Ford.   So based on what I know of cell voltages and current draw, the HVB in the Fusion will be between a set voltage range based on the SOC readings you see. What you haven't found yet is the amps used and recovered, and that will tell you a lot more about the batteries than SOC and voltages. What is the capacity of the pack and how much energy is consumed to bring up to its capacity.

 

An example of this would be, when I recharge a LiPo after an 8 minute flight, at the end of the charge cycle the charger tells me how many mah was put back into the battery. The battery is rated at 3300 mah, so at 8 minutes of flight time I used 2700 mah that was restored to the battery, leaving me 600 mah of reserve.  You never ever want to use all the mah, as it will harm the battery.   So knowing the capacity of the pack, the number of cells, and the cutoff voltages would help determine just how much energy the pack and give and take.  This helps me with setting a timer as the get it down now alert.  Also based on the low voltage reading before charge and mah restored at end of charge will give me an idea of the condition of the battery.

 

This I believe is the most important piece!  If a pack rated at 3300 mah, cuts off at 3.4 volts, and recharges at only 2200 mah, the pack is weak and needs to be replaced. At that voltage it should be able to take at least 2700 or more mah.  Seeing how many amps are used and how many are put back in the HVB will tell us what the actual pack condition is, but knowing what it is rated at is what we dont have, and need to know that before being able to know what its condition is.

 

So for someone like MXGOLF who has not been able to get good MPG, and feels the pack is the problem, being able to determine its actual capacity would tell us if the pack is the issue or not.


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#38 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 07:33 AM

Compare SOC with actual battery voltage too. It takes along time to go from 3.8V to 4.2 on a Lipo, so I cant see it being much different for the Lion. I do have a pair of Lion packs for my giant scale, but I haven't flown it yet to get an idea of the voltage levels.

 

Lion, Lipo, and LiFe batteries are similar in how they function, but have different voltages, and different current draws. I Lipo can give a high rate of current, for a short period of time, or a long duration at a slow rate, the Lion is nearly the same, but not as high a current draw, and has a lower voltage.  LiFe is  mainly for slow draw long duration applications, such as radios, and low current motors. It also operates at a different voltage. It also cant be charged at a high rate like the Lion and Lipo.

 

Lipos, though they can take and give a high current rate, also can go bad quickly if they get too hot, go above their max voltage, or go below their cutoff voltage, where the Lion is more stable in voltage ranges, and can recover if they go below their cutoff voltage.

 

I believe this to be the reason for the use of Lion instead of Lipo in the Ford.   So based on what I know of cell voltages and current draw, the HVB in the Fusion will be between a set voltage range based on the SOC readings you see. What you haven't found yet is the amps used and recovered, and that will tell you a lot more about the batteries than SOC and voltages. What is the capacity of the pack and how much energy is consumed to bring up to its capacity.

 

An example of this would be, when I recharge a LiPo after an 8 minute flight, at the end of the charge cycle the charger tells me how many mah was put back into the battery. The battery is rated at 3300 mah, so at 8 minutes of flight time I used 2700 mah that was restored to the battery, leaving me 600 mah of reserve.  You never ever want to use all the mah, as it will harm the battery.   So knowing the capacity of the pack, the number of cells, and the cutoff voltages would help determine just how much energy the pack and give and take.  This helps me with setting a timer as the get it down now alert.  Also based on the low voltage reading before charge and mah restored at end of charge will give me an idea of the condition of the battery.

 

This I believe is the most important piece!  If a pack rated at 3300 mah, cuts off at 3.4 volts, and recharges at only 2200 mah, the pack is weak and needs to be replaced. At that voltage it should be able to take at least 2700 or more mah.  Seeing how many amps are used and how many are put back in the HVB will tell us what the actual pack condition is, but knowing what it is rated at is what we dont have, and need to know that before being able to know what its condition is.

 

So for someone like MXGOLF who has not been able to get good MPG, and feels the pack is the problem, being able to determine its actual capacity would tell us if the pack is the issue or not.

How can I figure this out?


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#39 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 03:18 PM

How can I figure this out?

Thats the $64 question. Not sure how you can do it with the scan gauge.  Heck I wonder if the fancy $40K laptop Ford uses can do it.  Because of the complicated duty cycles, it would need a computer to capture the swings and analyze the trends to see just how much current was used, and energy restored. 


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#40 OFFLINE   hybridbear

hybridbear

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 11:10 AM

Based on the efforts of alpha & majorleeslow to do regression equations on fuel economy data I've begun some data gathering of my own. For each trip in the FFH I am tracking the following data points: beginning coolant temp, beginning useable SOC (i.e. how full is the battery icon), beginning overall SOC (i.e. current % charge of total battery), ending useable SOC, ending overall SOC, trip miles, EV miles, regen miles, brake score %, outside temp, HVAC use.

 

So far I have just shy of 60 data points. As I gather more data I plan to do a bunch of analysis in Excel to try to find some patterns in the data. I want to wait until I have at least 100 data points before I begin doing any Excel analysis though. Since each key cycle counts as a data point they add up quickly.

 

Here are my observations so far: if the car is off for only a short period of time the ending SOC numbers match exactly to the beginning SOC numbers of the subsequent trip. If the car comes home with a warm battery after driving awhile and then sits overnight in the warm garage at our apartment the SOC also hardly changes. However, when the battery temp changes significantly while the car is sitting there is a change in SOC at the beginning of the next trip. Sometimes this has been more than 10% of the useable SOC, although the jump often seems to be around 5%. Sometimes the useable SOC goes up, sometimes it goes down. It seems that when a warm battery cools significantly while sitting the useable SOC drops. When a cold battery warms significantly while turned off (such as when our car sits overnight in the heated garage) the useable SOC increases. However, these observations are based on only 2 data points each...more observation is needed to confirm. However, this behavior follows what is already expected based on the performance of Li-ion batteries in general so it is not surprising.

 

Also, I've learned a lot as regards the useable SOC and the battery icon on the dash. The car will not allow the useable SOC to get below 15% when you're driving. When the useable SOC reaches 15% the EV threshold completely disappears and any pressure on the gas pedal will bring the ICE to life. Also, a useable SOC of 50% equals a battery icon that is about 2/3 full on the dash. Anytime the useable SOC is below 50% and the ICE is on the computer will load up the ICE to send about 15 amps of current into the battery. It seems that the computer likes to vary the load on the ICE as little as possible and instead varies the generator load up and down with the slight vibration in your pressure on the pedal due to road bumps, etc. Once the useable SOC reaches 50% the load on the ICE will drop to under 10 amps flowing to the HVB. When the useable SOC reaches 60% the dash battery icon is almost full. Once the useable SOC reaches 60% the computer will no longer use the ICE to charge the battery. At about 60% useable SOC you can do ICE High mode on the freeway. Before the PCM update the car would maintain the battery around 60% useable SOC when driving faster than 62 MPH. The only way to get the battery above 60% of the useable SOC is when going down a mountain. A C-Max Hybrid owner has reported that this XGauge code will reach 100% when going down a mountain and that when it gets that high then engine braking starts.

 

Also, slowing to a stop from 55 MPH with a 100% brake score raises the useable SOC slightly more than 20%. Slowing to a stop from higher speeds would put proportionately more energy back into the battery. You could potentially go from ICE High mode with a 60% useable SOC up to 100% useable SOC just from regen braking.

 

I have also been able to graph my useable SOC versus total SOC to see how much of the battery the computer lets us use.

Based on the portion of my data that I have typed up, only 28 data points, I was able to get a regression equation with an r2 of .9976. This means that this equation is able to use the useable SOC to predict 99.76% of the variation in the overall SOC. This is very high accuracy and shows that these two data points have a linear relationship.

The equation is: y = 0.3849x + 0.3113. y is the overall SOC and x is the useable SOC.

 

This provides us some interesting data:

  • The intercept is 31.13%, this means that if the useable SOC showed 0% the actual battery SOC would be 31.13%

  • If we plug in 100% for x we get a result of 69.62% (0.3949 x 1 + 0.3113)

  • This means the absolute limits for HVB charge are 31.13% and 69.62%

  • Since the car doesn't really allow the useable SOC to go much below 15% and doesn't often let it go much above 60% we can see that in normal driving the range is 37.05%-54.82%

  • However, most trips don't see the useable SOC get as low as 15%, it's very hard to keep the car in EV mode once the useable SOC gets below 25% unless you're cruising on flat ground at low speeds with a minimal power demand. A typical useable SOC range while driving is 25-60%, this equates to 41.00%-54.82%

This data shows us how carefully Ford manages the charge of the HVB to prolong its life. Even if the HVB should experience a 10% loss in capacity, since we use such a small portion of the battery, we are unlikely to notice.

 

I have also observed how carefully the battery temp is managed. I have seen the battery fans come on when the HVB temp is in the low 70s but climbing while driving. This shows that Ford also carefully monitors the temperature to protect the battery and prolong its life.

 

Here is my SOC graph and equation

regression_zps57974e77.jpg


Edited by hybridbear, 28 October 2013 - 11:15 AM.

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Current Vehicles

2013 Ford Fusion Energi Titanium - White Platinum Metallic

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2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE x2

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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: ScanGauge II, XGauges, Fusion Hybrid, performance monitoring, fuel economy, efficiency, MPGs

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