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What is an eCVT? How does it work? Here is the answer

eCVT hybrid powersplit device transmission Fusion Hybrid

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71 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 04:31 PM

All questioned answered on pages 5 to 8
http://www.motorcraf...DSM1303_HEV.pdf

AHA they do!  Sweet. 


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#42 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 10:33 PM

MG2 does all the regen braking.



#43 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 10:05 AM

MG2 does all the regen braking.

That's what I thought. MG2 does regen braking, MG1 is spun by the ICE to provide electricity to MG2 for driving and to charge the HVB. Thus, MG1 can be slightly smaller but still keep up by being spun faster by the ICE. MG2 seems to peak at about 15-20 kW in regen braking due to the battery limits. But, considering what Ashley said about how the ICE is rarely connected to the wheels and that usually the car uses the ICE just to make electricity which is then used by MG2 to drive the wheels, this means that MG2 is able to put out much more power for accelerating.


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#44 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 11:08 AM

That's what I thought. MG2 does regen braking, MG1 is spun by the ICE to provide electricity to MG2 for driving and to charge the HVB. Thus, MG1 can be slightly smaller but still keep up by being spun faster by the ICE. MG2 seems to peak at about 15-20 kW in regen braking due to the battery limits. But, considering what Ashley said about how the ICE is rarely connected to the wheels and that usually the car uses the ICE just to make electricity which is then used by MG2 to drive the wheels, this means that MG2 is able to put out much more power for accelerating.

Considering that the Energi uses the same powertrain, I would sure hope so. The only thing limiting the FFH is the battery. 


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#45 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 11:42 AM

The ICE is always connected to the wheels through the eCVT but it's not always delivering torque to the wheels. That's determined by MG1. It is USUALLY delivering torque when it's running. I differ with Ashley there. The power "split" varies instant to instant with the intent to have the least EV action when the ICE is running in it's low specific fuel consumption sweet spot. EV action by MG! helps the ICE run in this spot. When the HVB is at it's nominal SOC and constant mid-range power is called for, the aim is for little EV activity.


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#46 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 01:47 PM

The ICE is always connected to the wheels through the eCVT but it's not always delivering torque to the wheels. That's determined by MG1. It is USUALLY delivering torque when it's running. I differ with Ashley there. The power "split" varies instant to instant with the intent to have the least EV action when the ICE is running in it's low specific fuel consumption sweet spot. EV action by MG! helps the ICE run in this spot. When the HVB is at it's nominal SOC and constant mid-range power is called for, the aim is for little EV activity.

Here is what Ashley was told by the technical team:

Hi Joel,

 

My technical adviser sent me this info:

 

1)The eCVT uses an electric motor, final drive, planetary gear set, a transfer shaft, and the starter/generator. The planetary gear set is used so that the ICE can drive either just the starter/generator or, if needed, provide extra power to the final drive in addition to what the electric motor is providing. The shop manual (which you can purchase access to here) will outline in more detail how these parts function. The Ford engineering team selected this design for many reasons, but that info is proprietary. 

 

2) The ICE is not directly connected to the wheels. It can either just provide extra power by turning the generator of if needed can provide torque to the final drive through the planetary gear set.

In response to a request for further clarification:

I think we've hit a wall when it comes to proprietary info. I did get this clarification, which I hope helps:

The primary purpose for the ICE is the charge the battery. However, it is also possible under heavy load conditions to have the planetary set direct torque to the final drive of the transmission assembly from the ICE. So the ICE can provide extra power for acceleration by turning the generator or directly providing torque through the planetary set. Most of the time it will only turn the generator.

I replied:

One follow-up question then in response to the ICE and charging...if the ICE is being used to spin the generator to make electricity used by the traction motor to power the wheels then why does the powerflow screen show a white line connecting the ICE to the wheels in addition to showing the ICE sending power to the electric motor and from the electric motor to the wheels as shown below?

IMG_2680_zps43d72ca4.jpg

Her reply:

The ICE can either turn the generator or, if the planetary set is held differently, then it can apply torque directly to the final drive that goes out to the wheels. Primarily it just provides power by turning the generator but under hard accelerations it can divert torque directly to the final drive gears and then out to the wheels.

My question in response:

I feel like the answer is dancing around the question. I clearly have in my head what my final question is, but I'm not sure I've conveyed it correctly, so I'll try again. When the ICE is only turning the generator and is not providing torque to the final drive to the wheels what will be displayed on the power flow screen? I ask this question because I have not seen the power flow screen without the line from the ICE to the wheels. However, if the ICE isn't sending torque to the wheels through the final drive but is just running the generator then it seems to me that the power flow should not show the ICE connected to the wheels.

Her reply:

If the ICE is on just to charge the battery then it will show similar on the power flow but would not say “Engine on due to acceleration” and would not have the white line from the “Engine” to the “Drive” showing power transfer. 

The white line will always be there. It just it won’t show the little color changes along it to make it look like there is power flow (the white and gray dashes looking like they are moving from one to the other).


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#47 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 04:43 PM

The ICE is always connected to the wheels through the eCVT but it's not always delivering torque to the wheels. That's determined by MG1. It is USUALLY delivering torque when it's running. I differ with Ashley there. The power "split" varies instant to instant with the intent to have the least EV action when the ICE is running in it's low specific fuel consumption sweet spot. EV action by MG! helps the ICE run in this spot. When the HVB is at it's nominal SOC and constant mid-range power is called for, the aim is for little EV activity.

HSD and Gen 1 Fusion/escape HD use this. The Ecvt in Gen 2 though acts differently, the traction motor does most of the work now.  Like I said before, there is no difference between the Energi and the FFH other than the larger battery and the charging system. The Energi runs 100% off battery when in EV Only, and from what I understand if called upon for added power the ICE can come on depending on SOC. 

 

The ICE is connected through the PGS, and its output is controlled to provide power on demand where needed, mainly through the generator, but can have its power redirected to the final drive when called for, but mostly its only driving the generator. Positive split mode splits the power output between the generator and wheels, Negative sends all the power to the generator and is used for cruising at highway speeds when only the traction motor is needed to maintain speed.

 

 

Unlike HSD and Gen1 HD, the traction motor can drive the car up to 85 MPH, where HSD and Gen1 can go a maximum of 45 MPH and then ICE is 100% powering the wheels. 

Gotta love this new system.  Understanding how it works helps to understand how to use it. 

 

 

Plug-In hybrids have all of the functions and capabilities of a full hybrid, however, they use a larger battery which 

gives them greater electric-only driving range. In addition, plug-in hybrids have a charge port which can be used to 
charge the battery externally from electric mains to allow them to have full electric range without having to run the 
combustion engine

Energi is a PHEV, so it matches the above description. 


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#48 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 07:46 PM

Well the Gen 2 may do that but I don't know why. Generating with MG1 to power MG2 will have more losses than providing torque from the ICE directly though the eCVT to the wheels. I would guess there's twice the loss in the EV path over the eCVT path. The Volt mostly does the generating-motor thing and it's mpg when the ICE is on is uncompetitive with the larger Toyota/Ford hybrids. A motor generator with only 5% loss is very good. Two of them would be 10% while the eCVT gear path I think would be less than 5%. If you go in and out of the HVB that's probably another 10%. The Gen 1 FFH's seem to have a total EV path loss of 30%. The Gen 2 mileage, weight and power would seem to argue they have about 20% loss because of a better HVB.

In any case, it's an elegant system. Don't buy those ones with clutches and manual/automatic transmissions.


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#49 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 11:31 PM

Well the Gen 2 may do that but I don't know why. Generating with MG1 to power MG2 will have more losses than providing torque from the ICE directly though the eCVT to the wheels. I would guess there's twice the loss in the EV path over the eCVT path. The Volt mostly does the generating-motor thing and it's mpg when the ICE is on is uncompetitive with the larger Toyota/Ford hybrids. A motor generator with only 5% loss is very good. Two of them would be 10% while the eCVT gear path I think would be less than 5%. If you go in and out of the HVB that's probably another 10%. The Gen 1 FFH's seem to have a total EV path loss of 30%. The Gen 2 mileage, weight and power would seem to argue they have about 20% loss because of a better HVB.
In any case, it's an elegant system. Don't buy those ones with clutches and manual/automatic transmissions.


I agree! That's why I have found Ashley's comments to be confusing. That's why I included the whole conversation so that you & others could suggest additional questions to ask her to understand the system better.

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#50 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 12:17 AM

The systems are essentially the same. Ford has always had MG2's powerfull enough for EV use to 86 mph. Even Gen 1's are over 100 hp. Electric motors are rated for temperature rise so if you cool them more you can get more power if you put more electricity in them. They sometimes have peak powers twice the rated power. The Gen 1 HVB's only put out about 30 hp. I think the Gen 2's are about 50% more, hence the ability to go faster. If you physically look at the transmissions for both, they're very similar. The main differences between Gen 1 & 2 seem to be the better HVB and software. I think upping the EV speed was a mistake and doesn't help many drivers. I see the car magazines don't see a change with the software update.

About the Gen 1 30% EV losses; somewhere a Ford guy threw out that number. I checked it. If I drive around my small town late at night at 30 mph on cruise control in summer temps with EV cycling about 50%, I get about 64 mpg. If I pulse and glide between 25 and 35 mph being very careful to avoid HVB charge and discharge arrows, I get 78 mpg ! The latter technique avoids EV use almost completely. If you go through the math, that's yields close to a 30% loss for the approximately 50% contributions of the EV cycle to the constant speed test.


Edited by lolder, 06 December 2014 - 06:49 AM.

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#51 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 10:04 AM

The biggest difference I see between the two is Gen1 can cruise neutral, no charge/discharge on the HVB, but the Gen2 is Very Very difficult to get into that stage, I have achieved it on occasion and saw 50+ on the instant, but any little bump, anything that could get you to move a fraction on the pedal and it was gone. The other note on this is you just can't maintain a steady speed doing this, you will slow down. (unless going downhill, and then you speed up like crazy). 

 

What this tells me is the ICE is putting out a lot more torque to the MG1 so it is always putting out power for either the traction motor or to the HVB or both.  If you notice on the Gen1, the battery levels remain constant at anything over 45 MPH, which on mine was at 50% SOC on the dash. The only time this was not true was when it was in a conditioning mode, then it fully charged the HVB and the ICE ran 100% of the time.   This new one doesn't do that, it charges similar to the Toyota HSD where it almost always went to full when above 42 MPH. When I go down certain roads that are horrible for any EV, I usually wind up with a full SOC, instant hovers around 40(higher in summer), and there is always a charge symbol on the battery. According to the PDF linked above, at this point the ICE should be spinning MG1, with MG2 providing the power to the wheels. Looking at the gauges provided, it does appear to be doing just that. SOC does not change, yet the ICE is always charging.  When accelerating, or higher demand like climbing a grade, then ICE and MG2 are combined to propel the car.  That is how I see it working. 


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#52 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 08:06 PM

gallery_11839_341_1754.jpg

Above are the Atkinson Engine Map and the Motor/Generator Map for a Prius.  To maintain constant speed, the car needs to maintain constant power.  It can do so by varying the torque and engine speed along any line of constant power.  As an example using the Atkinson Engine, if 15 kW are needed, then the car could operate at about 4000 rpm and 35 Nm of torque, consuming about 290 g/kWh of fuel.  It could also operate at about 2000 rpm and 90 Nm of torque using 220 g/kWh of fuel.  Both operating points provide the same power (maintain the same speed), but the later uses far less fuel, only 220/290 = 76% as much as the first operating point.   So you would want to design the car to operate at the second operating point when 15 kW of power is required. 

 

You can think of engine torque and rpms analogous to the force applied to the pedals and cadence riding a bicycle.  To maintain a constant speed on a bicycle, you can use a high gear, applying greater pressure to the pedals spinning at a slower speed; or you can use a low gear, applying less pressure spinning at a higher speed.

 

Suppose instead of operating at 2000 rpm and 90 Nm of torque, we operate at 2200 rpm and 90 Nm of torque.  Then, from the chart, instead of producing 15 kW of power, we produce about 16.5 kW of power.  The fuel consumption for 15 kW is 15 kW * 220 g/kWh = 3300 g/h of fuel.  The fuel consumption for 16.5 kW is 16.5 kW * 200 g/kWh = 3300 g/h of fuel.   Thus is it possible for the engine to produce more power using the same or less fuel by choosing a more efficient operating point. 

 

The question is what to do with this excess power achieved by moving to a more efficient operating point.  We can't just apply it to the wheels.  That would make the car go faster.  Instead, we could doing any of the following:

1.  Use the generator to charge the battery and place a greater load on the engine to absorb the excess power.

2.  If the generator produces more power than the battery can handle, we could divert some of the power from the battery to the electric motor.  Going in series from the engine through the generator, then to the electric motor, and finally to the wheels is a less efficient route than having the engine directly power the wheels.  That wastes some of the excess power that we need to get rid of, but allows the car to operate using less fuel. 

3.  If the battery is full, we could use energy stored in the battery by operating the generator in reverse and putting a load on the engine to absorb the excess power.  This may seem wasteful at first, but it could place the engine at a more efficient operating point that uses less fuel. 

4. It could be possible that the indirect route which requires more power from the engine (having the engine power the generator, which then powers the motor, and finally the wheels) actually allows the engine to operate at a more efficient operating point and use less fuel than using the direct route. 

 

I'm not an expert on engines.  But this is what I think is happening based on what I have read. 


Edited by larryh, 17 January 2014 - 08:35 PM.

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Tracking MPGe--not MPG.

 


#53 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 08:58 AM

The biggest difference I see between the two is Gen1 can cruise neutral, no charge/discharge on the HVB, but the Gen2 is Very Very difficult to get into that stage, I have achieved it on occasion and saw 50+ on the instant, but any little bump, anything that could get you to move a fraction on the pedal and it was gone. The other note on this is you just can't maintain a steady speed doing this, you will slow down. (unless going downhill, and then you speed up like crazy).

You can't really do this with our cars. Even when the dash doesn't show the up/down arrows for HVB charging/discharging, there is still power flowing in/out of the HVB to "other" on the Power Flow screen. The Prius will actually isolate the HVB where the ScanGauge shows 0 amps of current flow in/out of the HVB. What we can see occasionally is where the Power Flow screen only shows the HVB sending power to "other" and not to/from the wheels, but this is quite rare.


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#54 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 09:38 PM

It goes back to what was discussed months ago. When the up down arrows disappear, it most likely means that the output of the ICE on the generator is matching all requirements of the electrical system. Its producing just enough power to drive the car and the internal electrical.   I would like to see the current draw on  MG2 and output of MG1 during different states, Acceleration, cruise, grades, etc.


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#55 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 11:55 PM

In the Gen 1, my understanding of the arrows is that they indicate HVB charge/discharge. If there are no arrows visible, the HVB is not much involved at that point. The arrows are very vague so there may be a little participation by the HVB. That source of EV inefficiency is then lowest. There still may be EV transfer going on between MG1 and MG2. If you keep a steady throttle position in P & G acceleration with no charge arrow, there is probably not much transfer of EV as the ICE will run at the steady power level you are calling for and this system doesn't use much EV in that situation. In any case, my P & G tests show about a 30% improvement in efficiency.

I could keep the arrow from appearing on acceleration at a steady pedal pressure. I could also keep it off while coasting ( ICE off ) by a touch of pedal pressure to eliminate the built in regen.

This is not worth doing in the real world but it shows how the drivers got the 81 mpg in the 2009 1400 mile run. They did it by avoiding EV mode. That's the only way.

The hypermilers that did the test can get the same numbers from conventional cars by shutting off the ICE during coasting but they lose power steering, etc and it's much harder than with a hybrid. Hybrids do most of the same thing automatically.


Edited by lolder, 19 January 2014 - 12:00 AM.

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#56 OFFLINE   OneSpeed

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 09:13 PM

I can imagine the Tech's who are members of this forum, just itching to answer the questions, at the same time they like the guessing and secret keeping aspects of the trade.

#57 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 10 December 2014 - 09:48 PM

These eCVT hybrids of Toyota and Ford have been around since the 1997 Prius in Japan and the 2004 Ford Escape. The basics of electric motors, batteries, Atkinson cycle ICEs and planetary gears have been around 100 years. Toyota took the plunge and merged them with modern electronics, battery technology and software control. "The Prius that Shook the World" is a fascinating read here: http://r.search.yaho...GHMx1liCcoZQMo-

 

We don't like secrets and we do have to guess a little about some things because the manufacturers don't like to reveal too much, particularly Ford. We know pretty clearly how these cars function but the software is very complex and proprietary. The hardware is simple and bulletproof in theory.

 

I think the word that best describes the design of these cars is "elegant".


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#58 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 10:48 AM

Most non-hybrids operate with the throttle plate significantly less that wide open at cruising speeds. When you want to accelerate, opening the throttle plate instantly allows more fuel and air into the engine for more power in a small fraction of a second. These hybrids operate with the throttle plate almost wide open most of the time for peak efficiency so there is little more power available for acceleration. That's where the EV assist comes in. A pulse of addition torque is instantly added by the traction motor and the computer starts to increase the RPM of the ICE to yield the new power level desired. This might take a full second or more. As the ICE reaches the new power level, the EV assist pulse dies down.

 

At slow speeds, the power required is too low for the ICE to deliver it efficiently so EV is used. As the HVB charge gets low, the ICE is started and used to propel the car AND recharge the HVB. That puts the ICE in a higher power and efficiency operating range. When the HVB is recharged, the ICE stops and EV resumes. This repeats.

 

When braking, the HVB is recharged.

 

That in a nutshell is how these hybrids work. Hondas, Kias, and others are significantly different. The whole intent is to recover braking energy and to insure the ICE only runs when it can be run most efficiently. The EV assist makes up for the open throttle Atkinson ICE's slow acceleration response. The Atkinson cycle ICE's are close to the efficiency of diesels per pound of fuel.

 

If you figure fuel by weight and fuel cost the FFH efficiency is about the same as the VW TDIs at highway speeds

 

Currently in SW FL the price of diesel is 22% higher per gallon and 7% higher per energy ( BTU, KWh, etc. ) than gas.


Edited by lolder, 11 December 2014 - 11:21 AM.

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#59 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 12:22 PM

"The Prius that Shook the World" is a fascinating read here: http://r.search.yaho...GHMx1liCcoZQMo-

The link doesn't work for me. I get an error from Yahoo saying "403 forbidden".


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#60 OFFLINE   corncobs

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Posted 11 December 2014 - 08:04 PM

Talking about TDI on the highway since I had one while over there I took some pics after a 300 miles Autobahn trip.

DFD9E3E2-AD13-4194-9934-923664D82113_zps

While on the way I took another pic at 100 MPH which yielded 34 MPG instant.

A6088B37-81CC-445E-B1A3-941DB0D5C159_zps
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