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Ford C-Max & Fusion Hybrid Gas Mileage Lawsuits Combined

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#41 OFFLINE   jeff_h

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 11:45 AM

So my thoughts on this is, if Ford really did program to ace EPA when real world driving cant meet those numbers, then the lawsuit against them will expose how flawed the system is. Ford basically said that is the case when they insisted the EPA change the testing, in my mind they admitted to gaming the system right there.  What do we the consumer get out of this? More accurate real world EPA ratings, fewer false claims by car companies on their EPA ratings, and knowing when  you buy a car based on its gas mileage, that you can expect to see those numbers within 10%.

 

You might say that Toyota was more realistic in their estimates and what went onto the stickers, but I don't know if that was always the case.  In 2005 I bought a 2005 Prius, sticker said 60 city and 51 highway.... my average was normally around 51 which was good, but nowhere near 60... and then in the next year or two the numbers on their stickers went down to around 50 or even the high 40s.... whether that was reflective of a different engine or other design, or was there grumbling over the 60/51 numbers being unrealistic?  I don't know the answer to that one, but Toyota lowered the numbers in those successive years for one or more reasons, I wonder if Ford will as well?


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#42 OFFLINE   lolder

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 12:25 PM

I think when people bought a car that was rated 47/47/47, they thought no matter where the drove, they would get 47. The EPA tests do not reflect many real world situations. The comment that Toyota designed high mileage cars and then tested them is probably correct. Ford had an eagle eye on the tests first. The EPA is now testing the Fords themselves so we shall see. First generation TCHs and FFHs got within a mpg of each other real world when the FFH's EPA was much higher. They were about the same size, weight and power and those are the deciding factors. The Prii are lighter, sleeker and lower powered. The higher power of the C-max over the v is probably the culprit there. Toyota has really aced the wind drag from the gen 2 Prii on. Everybody made fun of their funny looks but more and more cars are starting to resemble them for a reason.


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#43 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 12:49 PM

You might say that Toyota was more realistic in their estimates and what went onto the stickers, but I don't know if that was always the case.  In 2005 I bought a 2005 Prius, sticker said 60 city and 51 highway.... my average was normally around 51 which was good, but nowhere near 60... and then in the next year or two the numbers on their stickers went down to around 50 or even the high 40s.... whether that was reflective of a different engine or other design, or was there grumbling over the 60/51 numbers being unrealistic?  I don't know the answer to that one, but Toyota lowered the numbers in those successive years for one or more reasons, I wonder if Ford will as well?

Actually the EPA tests did not take Hybrids into consideration at that time. It was after 2007 that the EPA drastically changed the way the testing was done which lowered the numbers down to more realistic averages that the Pri were actually seeing. So in a sense, Toyota did what the EPA told them to do at that time, then when the change came from the EPA, thats when the variance went away.  The 2007 Pri I had did get between 50 and 60 like the sticker said, however it was just the opposite, 60 highway 50 city is what I was seeing. I ;took a trip to PA for some schooling, and my return trip averaged 65 MPG from PA to IL, and up until I hit Chicago it was hovering around 75 MPG.


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#44 OFFLINE   elle

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 02:01 PM

Again, the car companies report the EPA numbers as required.  Companies can't adjust the test results downward (or upward); they are required to report the actual numbers they get on the tests.  They're not required to shout them from the rooftops, but they do have to report them.  

 

So, I can't speak to whether or not Ford decided to design to the test, as it were.  One could argue (as I have) that building to a test that is supposed to represent real-world conditions kind of makes sense, but some might see it as gaming.  Personally, I agree with those here who are saying that we need a better, more accurate test for hybrids.  If this controversy exposes a flaw in the testing process for these cars, I'm all for it.  


Edited by elle, 02 March 2013 - 02:05 PM.

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#45 OFFLINE   B25Nut

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 02:30 PM

"One thought that has crossed my mind is that maybe Ford doesn't want hybrids to succeed, maybe they're getting paid off by big oil, or they make less profit on hybrids, or something. I certainly hope that isn't true, though..."

HB - I have agreed with everything you've posted so far, but this is way off base. I realize what you said is only a thought, but I'm 100% confident that Ford and Alan Mulally know that the days of making huge profits from turning tucks into SUVs will never return. All the evidence I see indicates that Ford knows that hybrids are a major part of their future.
As has been said before, Ford is required by law to post the MPG numbers that come from EPA tests. They didn't have the option to change them, which is what makes any lawsuit pointless. Just like in any form of racing (this is a race for sales), Ford looked at the EPA rules and determined how they could push the rule's edges to their advantage. I feel I'm close to being as honest as they come, but this is what I've done in the past and is probably what I would have done if I were Ford.
As Acdii, you and others have said, the most likely outcome of all this is a change in the way the EPA tests hybrids. I think you'll agree with me when I say that from this point on, whatever we say here on this subject will have zero impact on the final results. The wheels have been set in motion on this issue, so let's get back to concentrating on subjects that enhance all our experiences with the FFH.
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#46 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 02:56 PM

Can you link to some of those? I would really like to do that as well. The ScanGauge can only do so much and being able to record information is even better. 
I found this in CMAX forum in fuel mileage forum and the below thread. What do you think? Coolant Temperature, Speed, ICE rpm Graphs of 30 Mile Trip - 45.8 MPG

 I used VC-Scope along with VCDS (Ross-Tech product) to record the ambient air temperature (yellow), the coolant temperature (red), my speed (white), and ICE rpm (green) for the initial trip to the shop.  There are four graphs below that show these variables for the 30 mile trip. Each major horizontal division on the X axis should be one minute.


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#47 OFFLINE   GrySql

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 04:14 PM

All the evidence I see indicates that Ford knows that hybrids are a major part of their future.
 

My general feeling about where the majority of basic commuter vehicle production is headed is displayed on my FFH's rear window.

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#48 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 07:09 PM

"One thought that has crossed my mind is that maybe Ford doesn't want hybrids to succeed, maybe they're getting paid off by big oil, or they make less profit on hybrids, or something. I certainly hope that isn't true, though..."

HB - I have agreed with everything you've posted so far, but this is way off base. I realize what you said is only a thought, but I'm 100% confident that Ford and Alan Mulally know that the days of making huge profits from turning tucks into SUVs will never return. All the evidence I see indicates that Ford knows that hybrids are a major part of their future.
As has been said before, Ford is required by law to post the MPG numbers that come from EPA tests. They didn't have the option to change them, which is what makes any lawsuit pointless. Just like in any form of racing (this is a race for sales), Ford looked at the EPA rules and determined how they could push the rule's edges to their advantage. I feel I'm close to being as honest as they come, but this is what I've done in the past and is probably what I would have done if I were Ford.
As Acdii, you and others have said, the most likely outcome of all this is a change in the way the EPA tests hybrids. I think you'll agree with me when I say that from this point on, whatever we say here on this subject will have zero impact on the final results. The wheels have been set in motion on this issue, so let's get back to concentrating on subjects that enhance all our experiences with the FFH.

 

I hope it isn't true. But right now the future of motoring is not hybrids, if it were we would be seeing more than a 3% take rate. At the moment the big thing is turbocharging, direct injection, variable valve timing and other tricks to make the ICE more efficient. Mass electrification has not yet caught on. It hasn't reached its tipping point. And hybrid vehicles may never tip if Ford pushes things backward with these cars and the negativity toward hybrids that they are causing. I don't see how the "experts" at Ford could have not forseen this backlash to the 47 MPG claims. We all know that if they did in fact build the car to exceed in the EPA tests then they also knew that the car would not yield that mileage in the real world driving of most people. We can all be sure that Ford knows how quickly the MPGs drop at speeds above 60 MPH.

 

For example, we know that Ford charges a price premium for the EcoBoost engines. These engines are supposed to increase fuel economy and performance to the point where it will be worth it. Ford has said they expect the 1.6 L EcoBoost to be the volume engine in the Fusion. They don't expect the hybrid to be the volume engine, even though all of us here would agree that the hybrid is the best of the Ford powertrains, otherwise we wouldn't have bought a hybrid. So then why would Ford be so concerned about making the hybrid successful when they know that, right now in 2013, it isn't the choice of the masses? Until hybrids reach their tipping point I don't think we'll see as much innovation as we could. Until hybrids become the focus of all the major manufacturers there will always be low-hanging fruit out there. I wonder if in this case, Ford took the posture of making the hybrid ace the EPA tests to get that big 47 MPG sticker number for their advertising, figuring that the hybrid sales would be low enough that there wouldn't be too much backlash. With my background in Risk Management I wonder if Ford figured that the risk of offending the hybrid enthusiast community was a small enough risk to be worth the addition attention and sales they get from the 47 MPG campaign. Because, no doubt, the 47 MPG campaign has driven traffic to the gas-powered Fusions too. Because people will see that number and be intrigued, even if they don't end up buying the hybrid, I'm sure it drives foot traffic. And those are key metrics for auto manufacturers.

 

I hope it isn't true. I almost hope that the people at Ford are stupid and that's why we have this controversy about mileage rather than the cause being that they did it on purpose. But, with the way society is these days, who knows? :confused: :headscratch:

 

I agree with B25Nut that we can't fault Ford for building a car that excells at the EPA tests. Like the illustration I gave earlier on another thread about standardized tests and school kids, this is much the same debate. The EPA cycles are a standardized test, I think we all can agree that standardized tests have their flaws. I hope that the EPA does change their test cycles for hybrids.

 

I also agree that it is a better use of our energy to focus on sharing things that improve our experience of owning these cars. Thanks B25Nut for the great post.

 

I found this in CMAX forum in fuel mileage forum and the below thread. What do you think? Coolant Temperature, Speed, ICE rpm Graphs of 30 Mile Trip - 45.8 MPG

 I used VC-Scope along with VCDS (Ross-Tech product) to record the ambient air temperature (yellow), the coolant temperature (red), my speed (white), and ICE rpm (green) for the initial trip to the shop.  There are four graphs below that show these variables for the 30 mile trip. Each major horizontal division on the X axis should be one minute.

 

Ptjones, can you please post a link to that info? Sounds very interesting


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#49 OFFLINE   hermans

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 07:45 PM

Wow now were turning to insults like a 12 year old. Grow up and learn to respect yourself and the money you spend. Obviously you like to take it in the a$$ from ford. But I dont judge...keeping taking it
 

 

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#50 OFFLINE   acdii

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 08:42 PM

I hope it isn't true. But right now the future of motoring is not hybrids, if it were we would be seeing more than a 3% take rate. At the moment the big thing is turbocharging, direct injection, variable valve timing and other tricks to make the ICE more efficient. Mass electrification has not yet caught on. It hasn't reached its tipping point. And hybrid vehicles may never tip if Ford pushes things backward with these cars and the negativity toward hybrids that they are causing. I don't see how the "experts" at Ford could have not forseen this backlash to the 47 MPG claims. We all know that if they did in fact build the car to exceed in the EPA tests then they also knew that the car would not yield that mileage in the real world driving of most people. We can all be sure that Ford knows how quickly the MPGs drop at speeds above 60 MPH.

 

For example, we know that Ford charges a price premium for the EcoBoost engines. These engines are supposed to increase fuel economy and performance to the point where it will be worth it. Ford has said they expect the 1.6 L EcoBoost to be the volume engine in the Fusion. They don't expect the hybrid to be the volume engine, even though all of us here would agree that the hybrid is the best of the Ford powertrains, otherwise we wouldn't have bought a hybrid. So then why would Ford be so concerned about making the hybrid successful when they know that, right now in 2013, it isn't the choice of the masses? Until hybrids reach their tipping point I don't think we'll see as much innovation as we could. Until hybrids become the focus of all the major manufacturers there will always be low-hanging fruit out there. I wonder if in this case, Ford took the posture of making the hybrid ace the EPA tests to get that big 47 MPG sticker number for their advertising, figuring that the hybrid sales would be low enough that there wouldn't be too much backlash. With my background in Risk Management I wonder if Ford figured that the risk of offending the hybrid enthusiast community was a small enough risk to be worth the addition attention and sales they get from the 47 MPG campaign. Because, no doubt, the 47 MPG campaign has driven traffic to the gas-powered Fusions too. Because people will see that number and be intrigued, even if they don't end up buying the hybrid, I'm sure it drives foot traffic. And those are key metrics for auto manufacturers.

 

I hope it isn't true. I almost hope that the people at Ford are stupid and that's why we have this controversy about mileage rather than the cause being that they did it on purpose. But, with the way society is these days, who knows? :confused: :headscratch:

 

I agree with B25Nut that we can't fault Ford for building a car that excells at the EPA tests. Like the illustration I gave earlier on another thread about standardized tests and school kids, this is much the same debate. The EPA cycles are a standardized test, I think we all can agree that standardized tests have their flaws. I hope that the EPA does change their test cycles for hybrids.

 

I also agree that it is a better use of our energy to focus on sharing things that improve our experience of owning these cars. Thanks B25Nut for the great post.

 

 

Ptjones, can you please post a link to that info? Sounds very interesting

Great post!

 

When you look at Hybrids, there really are only two car companies today that make hybrids worth anything, Toyota and Ford.  GM hybrids have gone no where, Honda has had too many problems, and Hyundai and Nissan well you dont hear much about them.   I do believe Ford went backwards with this new Hybrid though.


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#51 OFFLINE   B25Nut

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:42 AM

"I do believe Ford went backwards with this new Hybrid though."

Acdii, how many 2010-12 FFH owners got better mileage than Hermans, DC, Jeff and many others without hypermiling? There is no doubt that the 2013 is a step forward. It's not perfect yet, and I'm sure we'll see further improvement in the coming years in the hybrid system. Ford has built a car that has Toyota worried, and I'm sure that the Fusion is a major reason that Toyota is accelerating improvements in their product line.
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#52 OFFLINE   GrySql

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 12:42 AM

With my background in Risk Management I wonder if Ford figured that the risk of offending the hybrid enthusiast community was a small enough risk to be worth the addition attention and sales they get from the 47 MPG campaign. Because, no doubt, the 47 MPG campaign has driven traffic to the gas-powered Fusions too. Because people will see that number and be intrigued, even if they don't end up buying the hybrid, I'm sure it drives foot traffic. And those are key metrics for auto manufacturers.

 

I hope it isn't true. I almost hope that the people at Ford are stupid and that's why we have this controversy about mileage rather than the cause being that they did it on purpose. But, with the way society is these days, who knows? :confused: :headscratch:

Have you factored in the cost of the entry level gas engined CMax and Fusions, the low hanging fruit as you say?

The persuasive argument that the hybrids cost so much more and have at least a 5 year payback before you break even with the better mileage is a keen sword.

A great deal of people who really need a commuter car in this economy are keeping their cars longer or buying 'just enough' to get the job done, for example a Kia Soul.

Hybrids in the $30k and up range are only available to a select number of people and are deemed a luxury, look at the GM Volt's reception.

This is where the Prius has made it's inroads, high mileage at the lowest cost possible, subsidized by Toyota if need be to get control of the market.

 

A certain segment of hybrid owners buy them because of some other principle than good mileage, look at the BWM 740/750 Series with 17/24mpg, priced at $80,000 plus, no saving there, just a badge for mollifying a conscience.

 

This FFH was not on my radar until I saw this model and the magic 47/47 numbers, vs my first pick of a full boat FFTi EB.

I tend to keep my cars a long time and squeeze every drop of usefulness out of them I can.

Comparing prices, need, finances and the future issues facing me the FFH looked better and better, the hybrid warranty is appealing as well.

I have no regrets and kept the costs as low as I could without leaving out the goodies that I was particularly interested in.

What comes out of all this wrangling with the EPA will hopefully give a better balance to the next set of buyers.

Meanwhile I enjoy this vehicle much more than I though possible, for more reasons that the better mileage than in any vehicle I've ever owned.

Saving $1000's of purchase money compared to anything similar was a true bonus.

 

I am having my warranty work done on my FFH now at a crack Ford Dealer that gives us lunch at their own Cafe and a full tank of gas when we visit.

It's the home of many of the Ford commercials with Mike Rowe and is rated the #1 Service Dealer in the U.S. and President's Award winner for Sales and Service.

Things could not be better for my service needs and I'll relate some stories soon about experiences I've had here, I don't mind driving a little farther.

There are wide differences in Ford Dealership attitudes, just like most businesses. 

A dealership that says 'it's hands are tied' are just passing the buck, I personally know the buck can go very high indeed.


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#53 OFFLINE   tbranca

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:12 AM

even at 45mph my car won't get 47mpg 39mpg is the best I could ever get.  the ford rep's told me I have to put 6000 miles on the car and the computer will change and let me get the EPA's fule mileage it claims I'm up to 4300 mile as of today. 


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#54 OFFLINE   hybridbear

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:16 AM

I am having my warranty work done on my FFH now at a crack Ford Dealer that gives us lunch at their own Cafe and a full tank of gas when we visit.

It's the home of many of the Ford commercials with Mike Rowe and is rated the #1 Service Dealer in the U.S. and President's Award winner for Sales and Service.

Things could not be better for my service needs and I'll relate some stories soon about experiences I've had here, I don't mind driving a little farther.

There are wide differences in Ford Dealership attitudes, just like most businesses. 

A dealership that says 'it's hands are tied' are just passing the buck, I personally know the buck can go very high indeed.

 

Wow! Where is this dealer? I wish we had a dealer like that around here.


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#55 OFFLINE   hermans

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 08:39 AM

even at 45mph my car won't get 47mpg 39mpg is the best I could ever get.  the ford rep's told me I have to put 6000 miles on the car and the computer will change and let me get the EPA's fule mileage it claims I'm up to 4300 mile as of today. 

I would report that dealer to Ford. That's the most ridiculous thing I heard about info coming from a dealer.


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#56 OFFLINE   jeff_h

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:56 AM

even at 45mph my car won't get 47mpg 39mpg is the best I could ever get.  the ford rep's told me I have to put 6000 miles on the car and the computer will change and let me get the EPA's fule mileage it claims I'm up to 4300 mile as of today. 

 

Whereabouts in VA and what dealer?  The term "the computer will change and let me get the EPA's numbers" sound pretty odd, sounds more like the dealer is just saying anything to get you off the phone or back out the door.


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#57 OFFLINE   storksb

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 11:32 AM

even at 45mph my car won't get 47mpg 39mpg is the best I could ever get.  the ford rep's told me I have to put 6000 miles on the car and the computer will change and let me get the EPA's fule mileage it claims I'm up to 4300 mile as of today. 

Wonder if this is the same dealer as mine that insists I need to use premium gas  to get the EPA ratings, as there is to much ethanol in regular gas.



#58 OFFLINE   ptjones

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 01:56 PM

I hope it isn't true. But right now the future of motoring is not hybrids, if it were we would be seeing more than a 3% take rate. At the moment the big thing is turbocharging, direct injection, variable valve timing and other tricks to make the ICE more efficient. Mass electrification has not yet caught on. It hasn't reached its tipping point. And hybrid vehicles may never tip if Ford pushes things backward with these cars and the negativity toward hybrids that they are causing. I don't see how the "experts" at Ford could have not forseen this backlash to the 47 MPG claims. We all know that if they did in fact build the car to exceed in the EPA tests then they also knew that the car would not yield that mileage in the real world driving of most people. We can all be sure that Ford knows how quickly the MPGs drop at speeds above 60 MPH.

 

For example, we know that Ford charges a price premium for the EcoBoost engines. These engines are supposed to increase fuel economy and performance to the point where it will be worth it. Ford has said they expect the 1.6 L EcoBoost to be the volume engine in the Fusion. They don't expect the hybrid to be the volume engine, even though all of us here would agree that the hybrid is the best of the Ford powertrains, otherwise we wouldn't have bought a hybrid. So then why would Ford be so concerned about making the hybrid successful when they know that, right now in 2013, it isn't the choice of the masses? Until hybrids reach their tipping point I don't think we'll see as much innovation as we could. Until hybrids become the focus of all the major manufacturers there will always be low-hanging fruit out there. I wonder if in this case, Ford took the posture of making the hybrid ace the EPA tests to get that big 47 MPG sticker number for their advertising, figuring that the hybrid sales would be low enough that there wouldn't be too much backlash. With my background in Risk Management I wonder if Ford figured that the risk of offending the hybrid enthusiast community was a small enough risk to be worth the addition attention and sales they get from the 47 MPG campaign. Because, no doubt, the 47 MPG campaign has driven traffic to the gas-powered Fusions too. Because people will see that number and be intrigued, even if they don't end up buying the hybrid, I'm sure it drives foot traffic. And those are key metrics for auto manufacturers.

 

I hope it isn't true. I almost hope that the people at Ford are stupid and that's why we have this controversy about mileage rather than the cause being that they did it on purpose. But, with the way society is these days, who knows? :confused: :headscratch:

 

I agree with B25Nut that we can't fault Ford for building a car that excells at the EPA tests. Like the illustration I gave earlier on another thread about standardized tests and school kids, this is much the same debate. The EPA cycles are a standardized test, I think we all can agree that standardized tests have their flaws. I hope that the EPA does change their test cycles for hybrids.

 

I also agree that it is a better use of our energy to focus on sharing things that improve our experience of owning these cars. Thanks B25Nut for the great post.

 

 

Ptjones, can you please post a link to that info? Sounds very interesting

 

http://fordcmaxhybri...e-trip-458-mpg/

I'm working on some other diagnostic solutions.

 

If any of you FFH owners with poor MPG's get down in the Atlanta area I would love to put a ScanGauge on your car and test it on my 14.1mi hwy loop to compare to what I'm getting. I have no problems getting EPA mpg at 70deg'sF.


163299.png 600 Club

Current Record:  12/30/2014  902.2 mi.  63.8 mpg  14.13  gal. (Actual GPS:  922 mi.  68 mpg  13.5 gal.


#59 OFFLINE   Fynack

Fynack

    Fusion Hybrid Member

  • Fusion Hybrid Member
  • 167 posts
  • Region:U.S. Northeast
  • Location:Leesburg Va
  • Current Vehicle:2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid

Posted 03 March 2013 - 02:37 PM

Wonder if this is the same dealer as mine that insists I need to use premium gas  to get the EPA ratings, as there is to much ethanol in regular gas.


Got mine from Koons Ford in sterling. Besides the horrible customer services in their service depart. They had no clue what do or say.

#60 OFFLINE   Fynack

Fynack

    Fusion Hybrid Member

  • Fusion Hybrid Member
  • 167 posts
  • Region:U.S. Northeast
  • Location:Leesburg Va
  • Current Vehicle:2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid

Posted 03 March 2013 - 02:40 PM

If you check the Ford website now the wording has totally changed . No "EPA estimated" its now "up to 47" on each vehicle. The complaints and lawsuits have already made ford reword things instead of just using the EPA estimate as their go to marketing campaign.
  • neod192 likes this





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